west of Philly - barn saving

[rieferman]

Thanks guys! It's not a very complicated project, but great practice for milling rough lumber, and using every tool in the shop.

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shopnut wrote:

Can't tell if you used stainless carriage bolts on it (looks like zinc in pic), but if not, you might consider them if it's going to sit out in the weather. Would hate to see that beautiful finish marred with streaks someday. Maybe I'm just paranoid about corrosion living in humid old FL.

For the screws, which are all hidden under the plugs, I used the green coated deck screws, grip tite I believe. I figure if they're designed to stand up to PT lumber in a deck application they'll be alright for a chair too.

For the carriage bolts, I used hot dipped galvanized. I would have preferred ss but neither borg carried them. But again, I think hot dipped galv will stand up pretty well in this case. What do you think? For subsequent chairs, I'll be ordering my hardware from fastenal (or similar) to avoid the limitations of the borgs.

 

[larry_g]

woodworking news
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job news
I'm suddenly aware that post-frame construction is widely interpreted to be inferior to stick built construction. I attempted in one thread to spread facts instead of assumptions, and people generally got pissed at me for doing so. So, I think I'll stay out of that fray, and allow people to come to me with questions. It's a pity though, because the advantages are numerous. Shrug.

.

I've become aware through this board that post/pole building construction varies widely across the country, and construction styles, and the materials used. I missed the post where you "spread facts' so I can't comment there. My brother has a saying, "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up." Those kind of people are very hard to convince otherwise. I hope you have huge sucess with you new job and are the kind of person that I got to work with at http://www.mwbsc.com/ . Great company and good people. Are the buildings in the link like what your going to work with?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[rieferman]

Hey Larry,
That's really cool to know someone else that's worked for a similar company. I'll PM you the company name (I'm trying to not be advertisey on this site since I enjoy coming here as "me" instead of everyone thinking I'm a sales guy), but yes, we do similar work to what you showed on that link.

What I really like about this particular post-frame builder is that they use the perma column system exclusively, only highest grade lumber, minimum of three 2x6's laminated together for each post, dedicated construction crews and specialists etc. etc. etc. It's all about quality.

Can you tell me more about what you did with that company?

Thanks!

Bob R.

 

[larry_g]

Hey Larry,
That's really cool to know someone else that's worked for a similar company. I'll PM you the company name (I'm trying to not be advertisey on this site since I enjoy coming here as "me" instead of everyone thinking I'm a sales guy), but yes, we do similar work to what you showed on that link.

What I really like about this particular post-frame builder is that they use the perma column system exclusively, only highest grade lumber, minimum of three 2x6's laminated together for each post, dedicated construction crews and specialists etc. etc. etc. It's all about quality.

Can you tell me more about what you did with that company?

Thanks!

Bob R.

To be clear I did not work for the company. It is the company that I bought my building from. I was just really pleased with the one guy that I worked with on designing the bulding I wanted, the service they provided, and the high quality of materials they provided. We had some long talks about the intended use of the building, from which he made some good suggestions. They took the time to educate me enough so I could make informed decisions. If you look at their site you will see the model building they have that was a great visual to talk over as the sales guy could point out the various ways to me things could be done.

What I was wishing you was that I hope you get to be the salesman that every customer wants and are not hamstringed by poor company management or a company that does not deliver what you are selling the customer.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[rieferman]

Ahh, gotcha. I'm really glad you had that kind of experience during your project.

That's definitely their philosophy here too. I've been continually coached that I am a partner with the customer, guiding them, and then shouldering the burden of worry for them. It's the customer's building, I'm just making it happen for them and helping them make the best decisions.

As for quality, they have a lifetime workmanship guarantee on all phases of the build. The company views warranty calls as an opportunity to go out and exceed the customer's expectations again - unfortunately, they get nearly zero such calls each year since the buildings are built to last.

 

[shopnut]

For the carriage bolts, I used hot dipped galvanized. I would have preferred ss but neither borg carried them. But again, I think hot dipped galv will stand up pretty well in this case. What do you think? For subsequent chairs, I'll be ordering my hardware from fastenal (or similar) to avoid the limitations of the borgs.

Sorry - overlooked the possibility they could be galv. You should be fine. I wouldn't use them for an application where something rubs against them (thus scratching the coating), but on your chairs, that shouldn't be a threat.

BTW, what's a "borg"? The only thing that comes to mind are the aliens from the 2nd Star Trek series, but they always seemed to have everything

 

[rieferman]

Hey Shopnut,
I had the same rationale regarding the carriage bolts... No risk of wearing away the coating, so they should hold up fine. But, again, I'll be going with SS on future chairs.

I believe BORG was originally an acronym to stand for "Big Orange Retail Giant" (referring to Home Depot) and then became slang to refer to any of the big box hardware stores. I guess it's not that effective of a slang/shortcut though if I have to explain it

Which reminds me.. I had a past boss that thought he looked smarter if he threw around acronyms all the time... but each time, he'd have to do "air parentheses" with his hands and explain the acronym... which directly contradicts why you'd want an acronym in the first place.

Example:

Him: "Well Bob, the TMV (total market value) of this new product isn't sufficient to take the risk"

Me: barfffffffffff

 

[shopnut]

I had a feeling it referred to the big box stores, but was thinking it might be short for "schmorgesborg". You know, a little something for everyone.

Now I know - I guess I lead a sheltered life!

 

[rieferman]

I'd say, a well-sheltered life considering the quality level of your asylum

ha ha, too easy

 

[MBfreak]

Hi there.
Congratulations from Sweden on a great barn restoration jo. Love it.
One of te few words that has made it from Swedish to English is " Smörgåsbord"
Smörgås means " slice of bread with butter and lots of other good stuff
Bord means table.
All the good stuff is laid out on a table and then you roll your own.

One other word is " Ombudsman" which is a profession which at extremely long last is beginning to disappear. It means somebody who takes your money, a lot of it, and then puport to represent you as the labor unions wise guy against the big bad company. Hate it, but luckily a vanishing thing.

Ola

 

[fergus]

Hey Rieferman,

Nice project man. I'm sure it took fifty times longer than you thought it would...that's how the first of anything ever goes. Glad to hear about the career updates...sounds promising. Who woulda thunk fixing a barn would lead to a new job? I'm jealous!

 

[shopnut]

I had a feeling it referred to the big box stores, but was thinking it might be short for "schmorgesborg". You know, a little something for everyone.

Hi there.
One of te few words that has made it from Swedish to English is " Smörgåsbord"
Smörgås means " slice of bread with butter and lots of other good stuff
Bord means table.
All the good stuff is laid out on a table and then you roll your own.

WOW - I really messed that word up! Saw it on google and took it as true Shame on me!

My apologies and thanks for setting me straight MBfreak.

 

[rieferman]

I learn lots of new things each day, and now even in my own barn thread! lol

fergus, thanks man! The start of the barn journey was designed during a dark time when I needed to feel like I was progressing towards something more "me" and more meaningful than sitting at a computer in corporate america each day. I figured at the time that any step on a new path would eventually lead to something. Doing nothing would change nothing, but doing something would surely lead somewhere. Who knew where? For one, it lead here to GJ where I've met friends. For another, I am learning woodworking. And another, I'm a darn good carpenter now and can make my home a nicer place. And now, my know-how is part of the equation leading to a new career in a new industry. It's simply amazing. Stupid ol' barn was one of the best things to ever happen to me.

 

[DaleJR88Fan]

Rieferman,

Nice job on the chairs. I made 16 of these with footrests for the people in our wedding. Lots better than the normal cheesy gift. It is nice to go over to their house, now almost 10 years later, and still see them in use. I have always intended to sell them commercially, but life just got in the way. It is a lot easier with patterns and assembly jigs. I do notice you are missing the cup holder holes in the arms. I will have to look through my pictures to show you what I mean.

 

[rieferman]

Wow Brian, You must have REALLY liked your wedding party. Besides considerable material cost, that's a lot of work. But you're right, that's a really nice way to thank them for being a part of your day.

Agreed.. The time spent making the patterns and assembly jigs was well worth it. Slowed me down on the prototype, but will make each chair after this far easier!

I suddenly feel like my goal of making 8 of these is achievable!

 

[rieferman]

Job news

Last week, I drove an 1.5 hours up to the main office on Tuesday and Thursday night after finishing my day job. Trained for several hours with the owner each night and learned a ton.

After learning their pricing methodology, I converted the entire process to an automated MS Excel pricing tool. This will save me a ton of time and increase accuracy.

The owner was impressed with me, and I showed up on Thursday to find a new iphone and new laptop awaiting me.

I also booked myself as a vendor at a local car show. It's a very small affair that will attract about 3000 spectators, 250 cars being shown. Only 10 vendors are there, so it's a good opportunity to let my town know about my company etc. The wife created the art/layout for a banner to bring people into my booth to check things out, and the company is having it printed up for me.

I also had my first customer call last week, and then visited face to face to consult on the job this past weekend. We got along great, and I think we have a very good chance of getting the business.

I'm work in process on the marketing plan that the wife and I will implement to create our own pipeline of qualified leads. We have a bunch of good ideas that should allow a higher close percentage.

We got a really nice desk for free on craigs list. Roll top etc. So, we have my home office all setup.

Also, the other owner is pleased with my work, so he sent me my second lead this morning. Nice!

Oh, and I've been listening to the Zig Zigler series, "How to Close". I really like it.

The "work" I'm doing doesn't feel like work. It feels like hanging out on garage journal and talking with guys like you.

Here's the website, I think it's time to share it: http://www.kistlerbuildings.com/

Shop news
Applied some helmsman spar varnish to my chair. Hopefully will start the 2nd chair real soon. But shop time has been very limited right now.

 

[Coyote Red]

Here's the website, I think it's time to share it: http://www.kistlerbuildings.com/

Very nice.

 

[Ford52PU]

Good news on the new job! Where's the car show at? I am going up to Macungie this weekend for the big show up there.

 

[rieferman]

Coyote Red wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rieferman
Here's the website, I think it's time to share it: http://www.kistlerbuildings.com/

Very nice.

Thanks! I've been nothing but impressed with every phase of the operation. And, I think that believing in what you're selling is a major key to success.


Dennis wrote:

Good news on the new job! Where's the car show at? I am going up to Macungie this weekend for the big show up there.

Thanks! I'm really happy about it definitely.

Macungie eh? I'm Mr. Mom this weekend (wife is getting a weekend away with the girls) so I don't think I can hit that one. Too bad because it's close enough for sure.

The show I'm exhibiting at is in Collegeville PA 19426. It's a very small show, but it should be perfect for my purposes - namely to introduce myself and Kistler to people in the area.

http://www.collegevillefire.org/

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Side note... Price is a big objection to our product. Our product is frequently more expensive than other post-frame buildings (although still a significant savings over stick frame). BUT, the price is not "too much" - that is, the price is very fair considering what we deliver. From the dedicated work crews, material choices, and construction standards, through customer service and lifetime workmanship warranty... A hassle free experience. It's just a top of the line option A to Z.

Anyways, the point I'm getting to... Would you (the general "you") go to the car dealership and buy the cheapest possible car you can find? I mean, it'll go forward and backwards, it'll turn left and right. Good enough right?

NOOOOOOOOO. We look at cars as an investment. We value trouble-free. With cars, we seemingly understand the difference between price (a "now" number) vs. cost (an ongoing number).

If I use this line of explanation, does it cause an "ah ha" moment for the customer?

Also, I feel that beginning the relationship with "we are not a discount builder, we will not be your lowest bid, but you will forever be glad you chose us for your project" helps eliminate potential sticker shock syndrome down the road. If they're mentally prepared ahead of time for a higher number to come back, but they're already understanding of what their money is paying for (quality, hassle free experience, lifetime warranty... a lower lifetime cost... a true investment), they can overcome their natural inclination to just buy blindly on price.

What do you think? (the general "you")

 

[Coyote Red]

I'd stay away from the car analogy personally - overplayed - and everyone pretty much understands it already and has heard it a gazillion times. On the other hand it's a good idea to prepare the customer, so whatever you're comfortable with is probably best. I'd take the tack of quantifying why you're more. List it all out. And eliminate needless prospecting by getting potential customers accurate numbers early in the process.

 

[flybefree]

Rieferman:

Purely in the FWIW column of life...I agree to stay away from the car analogy, only because lots of folks (in this case, me) do not associate buying a car with pleasure. I do think Zig is the man. I bought my building from a guy who was not the lowest bidder because 1) He built a barn for my neighbor and treated him right 2) He was obviously working hard to help me get what I wanted even when I did not know what that was.

Shaun

 

[shopnut]

A little marketing research, eh?

I'm probably not the "general you" out there that you're trying to figure out how to win over. I most likely match your new companies current clientele - willing to pay a more to get more.

But I will say this. The very first builder we talked to knew exactly what we were looking for because he listened to our every word and told us how he planned to deliver it (in detail). Both Mrs. Shopnut and I could tell he wasn't just a "yes" man with fake promises and made the plunge with absolutely no references on the guy or his company. We didn't even bother getting a second quote because we just knew he was charging us a fair price for what he was about to deliver.

Risky? Maybe. But very seldom do we BOTH read people incorrectly. At the end of the day, he was a perfect choice and we couldn't be happier.

You need to be honest with folks. Listen to their needs. Make suggestions to alter the design if it doesn't fit the building methods of your company and explain how this can possibly save them money because you are staying within the core competencies of the builder. Of course sell the quality and service of your company any chance you get. Sell the total cost of ownership over a 30 year period compared to the low cost competitor (assuming they are in it for the long haul). Most people will respond positively to all this.

You also need to be darn sure of the capabilities of your company so you don't make promises THEY can't keep. It's not a one man show.

 

[rieferman]

Guys, thanks a ton for the feedback. The way I want to tell the story is definitely all about openness and creating a feeling that we are in this together.

One thing I'm feeling strongly about is that if I'm up front about what we offer (namely, we aren't selling a cookie-cutter discount building with discount quality, we are partnering with the client to produce a top quality building customized to their needs at a fair value) then they will not have that sticker shock moment when the price comes in higher than discount alternatives.

I remember an instance where I was shocked by a plumbing quote and therefore didn't go with the quality choice initially. Only later did I understand why their pricing was higher (committment to quality, only top materials, standardized practices, professional crew, customer service center that tracks history of our house calls, warranty on all work performed etc.). Had they prepared me ahead of time to understand what their pricing covers, the shock wouldn't have ocurred and I would have evaluated from a different mindset.

 

[flybefree]

I agree...avoid that gut busting sticker shock event...I have had the same experience when I asked about Lista cabinets for the shop. I felt poor and lonely...but hey, I'm used to that!

 

[rieferman]

I felt poor and lonely...but hey, I'm used to that!

ha ha, twice in one day someone from your family has caused a coffee mishap as I laugh at something you've written. Damn you flybefree!!!!! I can sooo relate.

 

[rieferman]

Last night, I finally got around to resetting my shop after my recent projects. This entails returning tools to their homes, and in this case, reorganizing the shop a bit.

A hutch that was really storing nothing useful is getting a paint job to move into the house (wife wants to store bath towels in it now), so I was able to move my band saw to the other side of the shop as a result. This brings the band saw closer to the dust collector to which is never a bad thing.

I also moved my assembly table away from the stairs so that I can walk entirely around it. This will make assembly tasks and painting tasks so much easier.

Moving the band saw also unblocked wall space right next to my new table location.. thus creating a very nice spot for clamp storage.

Still to do:
- make some cubbies for the tools that I use at my assembly table (I hate those plastic cases that hold tools)

- Build a proper assembly table. I found nice plans in a back article of Shop Notes magazine. It ain't fine woodworking, but it'll be a hell of a sturdy table.

- Reroute my dust collection. For one, it needs to meet my new bandsaw location. Secondly, I want to replace all 90 degree bends with two 45 degree bends for better airflow.

Pics when I've accomplished some of that.

 

[flybefree]

OH...I don't like those little vacum formed plastic cases either...you can never get them closed easily. I started making wood cases for my tools...of course that project remains to be completed, but some day.

 

[rieferman]

From a member at lumberjocks forum, attached picture shows approximately the idea I have in mind. Although my layout will be a little different as follows:

Basically, I want an open cubby for all the tools used at my assembly area.

Each tool cubby would have a smaller "accessory cubby" as a companion.

Example, random orbital sander is in its own tool cubby. Immediately above that cubby is the much smaller accessory cubby to hold my sand paper.

Example 2, router is in its own tool cubby, and immediately above that cubby is the smaller accessory cubby to hold my router bits.

etc.

The cubbies will feature a small shelf area at counter height so that I can pull the tool and its accessory from their cubbies, and load the tool.

Turn around, and use the tool at the assembly/work table.

Return tool and accessory to their cubbies.

 

[shopnut]

Sounds efficient to me! Tools need to be at your fingertips in the shop.

The only time I like to have the power tools in their original cases is when I'm taking them on the road. But the case has to be large enough to carry the accessories, and it has to be a sturdy blow-molded one.

 

[flybefree]

Good point about traveling with the tools...need both systems.

 

[rieferman]

Agreed. I do save the cases, but only pull them out when needed

 

[rieferman]

35th birthday yesterday. I'm officially on the way to 40. Yikes.

As the stars would have it, my birthday aligns almost exactly with a bunch of life anniversaries. A sampling: 15 years of being stupid good at hacky sack, 10 years of being married to my wife, 6 years of having a son, 4 years of having a daughter, 12 years of having a black lab (Piggy), 6 years of owning my farm house and barn, 12 years since successful heart surgery, 17 years of living in PA. I'm sure there's lots of others I'm forgetting, but these are the ones that easily align with my birthday. Pretty cool.

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Anyways, new job stuff is going really well. Working with a customer this weekend at an organic farm. He's interested in a large gambrel style barn, so that will be a fun one. And tonight I meet with the fraternal order of police about a meeting lodge. That will also be very cool. I've been spending a ton of time with the owners whenever I can. They're really nice people and know the buisiness so well.

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In the shop, I reorganized and started rerouting dust collection. It'll be much more useful this way. We were re-finishing a hutch in there this weekend, and the new layout was more useful even for a task that simple. Small changes can make a big difference. I'll post pics when I have it setup and cleaned up a bit.

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For my birthday, my folks and wife split a router table for me. It should arrive in the mail shortly. I have the Bosch 1617 router, so we picked the table that goes nicely with it from Bosch. Should be very useful. I'll post a pic of that too when I get it set into my shop.

That's all I have today

 

[BigWil]

Congrats on the birthday, rieferman. Wishing you many more.

 

[rieferman]

Thanks Will!

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Last night, got half of my dust collection system redone with 45 degree bends rather than 90 degree bends. The amount of increased suction as a result is pretty amazing actually. This was definitely one of those situations where I felt like I (the person with no prior dust collection knowledge) MUST know WAY more than the experts. Ha ha. I was wrong, they were right.

Will finish the rest as I find time. Two jobs and family is chewing up nearly all of my available time.

Did find some time to go hiking with the kids though

 

[rieferman]

Escaped hurricane Irene with basically a wet yard and some branches down. Major flooding at the Perkiomen creek nearby though.

Lots of inside time with the kids this weekend and I finally finished my shop reorganization. One half is machines, the other is assembly. Reworked all the dust collection while I was at it. And I installed my birthday present (router table).

Oh, and I made my first sale More soon when I have the details. If the owners will let me blog it, I will.

 

[Coyote Red]

Wow Rieferman, your place is really looking good.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

Rieferman, your shop is really coming together! That last photo almost looks like a dining room setting with the curtains, table, and 'rug' runners. lol The only thing missing is a shop chandelier, a couple of candlesticks, and maybe of bouquet of flowers.

 

[colt zantop]

yeah...looks great! nice work

 

[oilslick]

I like it all x cept maybe the curtains, they seem like something my friends would poke fun of if I had them[friends,curtains], just consider me a friend!

 

[flybefree]

Looks good, congrats on your sale.

Shaun