Western Forge Auction

[lardy1]

https://www.perfectionmachinery.com...4iZwnk3plLuJFXiqKFdqf5xkdAtz3P_A8WGX-RTaMhkKU

For those of you interested in starting a forging operation or expanding on your existing one.

Sadly, another page in domestic tool manufacturing has turned.

 

[kngelv]

Sad news.

James

 

[sberry]

I figured the dies for cman was shipped to China.

 

[Corndoggeh]

Some of those tools look... Aged? Seems like they may have been struggling for a long time where they werent able to keep them up to date. May explain some of the slow descent into QC issues.

 

[measuredtwice]

Some of those tools look... Aged? Seems like they may have been struggling for a long time where they werent able to keep them up to date. May explain some of the slow descent into QC issues.

You can always count on the internet to kick you when you're down. Ideal did some consolidating so it's possible that this is just the stuff that they didn't want to move. Making assumptions about the company based on the liquidation might be more like judging a person by their garage sale, not their estate sale.

"Ideal plans to consolidate manufacturing at its SK Professional Tools plant in Sycamore, Illinois, west of Chicago, where the company said it plans to add employees."

I figured the dies for cman was shipped to China.

The Craftsman dies were probably owned by Craftsman. Dies are often owned by the brand, not the manufacturer.

 

[mille755]

Some of those tools look... Aged? Seems like they may have been struggling for a long time where they werent able to keep them up to date. May explain some of the slow descent into QC issues.

Looks like a fairly modern and very clean facility to me. You shouldn't need new equipment every 5 years if you are buying good equipment. In fact i would expect to get at least 20 years out of any industrial equip with decent maintenence. If not indefinate service with periodic overhauls.

You ever been in a steel mill or a power plant? Those places are generally antiquated and filthy. This looks as good or better than the automotive plants i have been in.

The chinese that we are constantly complaining about are the ones with the brand new factories.

 

[dutchgray]

Looks like a fairly modern and very clean facility to me. You shouldn't need new equipment every 5 years if you are buying good equipment. In fact i would expect to get at least 20 years out of any industrial equip with decent maintenence. If not indefinate service with periodic overhauls.

You ever been in a steel mill or a power plant? Those places are generally antiquated and filthy. This looks as good or better than the automotive plants i have been in.

The chinese that we are constantly complaining about are the ones with the brand new factories.

Looks pretty good to me as well, none of the usual signs they ran the snot out of the production equipment until it wouldn't run no more before they went bust.

 

[Steve_P]

Agree that it looks clean - and in better shape than I expected for an old operation. But since Ideal left so much behind, much of it is probably outdated for production today. Which isn't surprising.

 

[American Locomotive]

A lot of that equipment is horrendously antiquated.

14(!) Brown and Sharpe single spindle automatic lathes. Those machines are at least 50 years old. They're entirely mechanical, take a very long time to setup for a new job (requiring custom cams and tooling, and are finicky to keep making good parts. Not to mention aren't really fast enough to make money anymore.

A bunch of ancient 30 year old Citizen Swiss machines with equally ancient Fanuc control. Same deal: will be slow, difficult to setup/program for new jobs, parts costly and hard to find, machine likely pretty worn out by this point.

The Acme gridley multispindles are also 45+ years old. Same issues as the Brown and Sharpes. Big mechanical monster that you need to baby sit all day. The Acmes can be fast, but they'll hapilly churn out 1,000 scrap parts in an hour if you're not on top of them.

You can't make money in the U.S. with equipment like that these days. Too old, too finicky, and too inflexible. It's just yet another example of a once manufacturing giant failing to adapt and modernize. If they had more modern equipment, they could have quickly and rapidly tooled up for new customers and product.

The facility does seem clean and well taken care of though. I'll give them that. But I agree with Steve, there is a reason why Ideal is abandoning all of that equipment. I remember an SK rep saying outdated equipment is a major thing they are contending with right now.

 

[lardy1]

I think this sale is more of an indicator that they are adapting than anything. This was a consolidation if I heard it right. Not the death of the company.

 

[American Locomotive]

WF as an entity is dead. Plant closed, everyone laid off, any remaining good equipment and lucrative contracts moved to SK's facility.

 

[lardy1]

Yes. Looking deeper it does appear it's dead. My misunderstanding. It looks like any vestiges of it will be absorbed elsewhere within Ideal.

 

[nadogail]

If I could go there and get some of that stuff for opening bid prices, but we all know that will not happen.

 

[vssjim]

I didn't see any way this was not going to happen unless there was a drastic increase in USA sales of tools like adjustable wrenches and screwdrivers etc that they made. When Ideal bought them even though they said the had sales outside of Craftsman sales but not really enough I'm sure. The sale of china made tools by sears and then Stanley buying Craftsman ending a decades long sales outlet for Western Forge. Add to this other companies that they private label made tool for going off shore for products and the massive financials of the 2008 to 2016 really hurt what was already wounded. I wish Ideal the best as they have spent tons of money to keep and rebuild what they own and they probably had to do this to continue.

 

[mille755]

A lot of that equipment is horrendously antiquated.

14(!) Brown and Sharpe single spindle automatic lathes. Those machines are at least 50 years old. They're entirely mechanical, take a very long time to setup for a new job (requiring custom cams and tooling, and are finicky to keep making good parts. Not to mention aren't really fast enough to make money anymore.

A bunch of ancient 30 year old Citizen Swiss machines with equally ancient Fanuc control. Same deal: will be slow, difficult to setup/program for new jobs, parts costly and hard to find, machine likely pretty worn out by this point.

The Acme gridley multispindles are also 45+ years old. Same issues as the Brown and Sharpes. Big mechanical monster that you need to baby sit all day. The Acmes can be fast, but they'll hapilly churn out 1,000 scrap parts in an hour if you're not on top of them.

You can't make money in the U.S. with equipment like that these days. Too old, too finicky, and too inflexible. It's just yet another example of a once manufacturing giant failing to adapt and modernize. If they had more modern equipment, they could have quickly and rapidly tooled up for new customers and product.

The facility does seem clean and well taken care of though. I'll give them that. But I agree with Steve, there is a reason why Ideal is abandoning all of that equipment. I remember an SK rep saying outdated equipment is a major thing they are contending with right now.

I stand corrected, perhaps I did not look deeply enough, but as stated, seems like a well cared for place.

 

[Indexmill]

I actually teared as I read this and looked at the auction webpages. It is tragic. I had to stop.

 

[American Locomotive]

I stand corrected, perhaps I did not look deeply enough, but as stated, seems like a well cared for place.

The equipment is all remarkably clean and well kept, so it would be easy to think it must be newer or modern.

I used to work for a manufacturing company that had machines like Brown & Sharpes. They were constantly phasing them out and replacing them with modern equipment. By the time I left there was only one B&S left, and it basically only ran one job every couple of months, and sat most of the time. It'd cost more to set it up for another job, than it'd make running it.

But I'll concede that the machining equipment is where my knowledge ends. I know nothing at all about about all of the injection molding and forging equipment they're selling. Couldn't tell you if it was modern, old, still useful/profitable to use, etc...

 

[anndel]

Sad but it's glad to hear SK is doing great.

 

[plumber84]

So sad that the country that invented the crescent wrench no longer produces them domestically, unless SK continues to make them

 

[matt_i]

A lot of that stuff has negative value. The riggers are licking their chops over that big stuff.

Add in the 18% buyers ripoff, sales tax and the rigger fees, the game changes.

Typical fee for loading something like a Bridgeport milling machine on a trailer, which for a rigger is approximately the degree of difficulty as moving a pallet of boxes, is around $600-700........

 

[dr_clyde]

There’s a couple odds and ends there that could be useful to the right person yet, but there’s a reason why Ideal is selling it all.

The scrap guys are going to have a fair bit of work ahead of them I reckon.

It is possible to utilize some of that equipment in the right setting, to the right shop. But most shops don’t have the skill, space, parts and general know how to set up a mechanical multi spindle to be profitable these days. There are still some parts made on Acmes profitably, but they’re rare. IMO, no self respecting shop that utilizes Swiss lathes is interested in a 30 year old Citizen CNC. Old CNC can be a HUGE money pit.

The forging stuff may be worth a bit yet, but the customer base for such tools is so small they’ll go to the scrapper most likely.

Some of the support tools and equipment is worth something, but not much to the seller because it will cost the buyer a lot just to get it out of the building.

 

[American Locomotive]

With scrap running ~$50-60/ton right now, there isn't much money in it for scrappers either. There's maybe $100 in scrap with the Brown & Sharpes, possibly $150-200 for the CNCs. as matt_i said, I think a ton of of this stuff basically has negative value. It'll cost the scrappers more money in wages having guys pick the stuff up then they'll get from the yard.

Wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of it just gets left behind and ideal just abandons it.

Although, there are a couple of equipment dealers/refurbishers who carved a niche supporting old Brown & Sharpes and Acmes. So maybe they'll be saved.

 

[dr_clyde]

Most auction riggers throw small bids on big scrap lots because they're already there and have means to haul to the scrapyard.

I was at an auction a few months back of a BIG (part size) machine shop, and the riggers were cutting apart big old CNCs with sawzalls, torches and sledges and loading them into their trucks.

If the building/land is sold/worth anything they'll want all the iron out whether or not someone buys it to re-use or just melt down.

It almost made me cry to watch my neighbors DeVlieg Jig mill get cut apart for scrap last year. I wanted that mill, but didn't have room. Went for $500 to the rigger who promptly took it to the recycler. It's the way of the world I guess.

 

[American Locomotive]

It almost made me cry to watch my neighbors DeVlieg Jig mill get cut apart for scrap last year. I wanted that mill, but didn't have room. Went for $500 to the rigger who promptly took it to the recycler. It's the way of the world I guess.

Seesh. $500 for the machine, $100-200 in wages to cut it up and pack it on the truck, $50 in fuel and truck wear, just to make $150-200 net profit. Money is money I guess.

 

[1982fxr]

Iirc it was almost closed down a couple of years ago for being coal powered but a Colorado politician saved it.

And I read somewhere it was going to be on the chopping block again in a couple years, and at that time it would be less likely they could save it. I think it was in a news article.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

It does look clean and neat.

I remember asking the maintenance engineer why we were having trouble competing against Chinese imports,. Hey, we were using the same steel as they were? His answer "Their new machine runs 3x faster." Our machine was 30 years old.

Around here, in the saw milling business if it's 5 years old, it's ancient.

 

[zendriver]

I was always surprised it was even there in the first place, since COS was really not a "factory town", at least at the end of the 20th century, when I live there.

Seems like they were always hiring and in the local news often, with labor or other problems, at that time.

Growing up in the mid-west, where there were factories literally everywhere, it just seemed odd to me, making hand tools, amongst high tech and Military.

C'est la vie