Wetlands on property?

[kmacht]

Anybody deal with a small stream running through their property? My wife and I are looking at a house to buy and I want to eventually put a barn/shop on the property. The problem is that there is a small stream running through the center of the 5 acres. The property is on a slope and it looks like the stream is from runoff up the slope. It is only about 2 feet wide and maybe a foot in depth. It is hard to tell since it is dry and covered in leaves this time if year. Anybody deal with something similar when buying property? Are all streams considered wetlands? I looked at the towns epa wetland map and it doesn't show up there but it does show up on the tax assessors map. I'm worried that the stream will keep me from clearing the land around it for the shop. Its tough to find anything bigger than 2 acres here in connecticut that doesnt have some sort of stream on it. Thoughts?

Keith

 

[bob15]

The town hall will tell you exactly what you need to know. It will be on a map they have.

Nobody on this site will give you an exact correct answer to your question because every town & state are different. Going directly to the town hall answers it without a shadow of doubt.

They will also be able to tell you about locations for any building you might want to erect.

Also, be aware that brooks will overflow in the spring. I have one on the edge of my property. In hot dry summers (like last year), it will dry up. A wet spring or when tropical storms hit us, it will be over the banks by a foot. The brook channel itself is 3-7 feet deep and 7-8 feet wide. Typical water depth is a foot.

 

[pattenp]

In my county you can't build anything in wetlands unless you mitigate it by creating wetlands elsewhere. I have a similar wet weather creek (dry most of the year) but is not designated as wetlands. But even then the environmental engineering department during the building permit process stated what I could do and not do in that area. So as said by bob15 you need to get the town to tell you what you can and can not do in the area. I had to put in a lot of erosion control during the construction of my garage because of the natural drainage area.

 

[nyy845]

You'd be wise to speak to your town/city hall.

My experience (I'm sure it's very different depending on where you live): If there is an indication of a wetland on your property, when you go for building permits you will likely have to do soil testing to determine how far the wetland extends beyond the stream. The soil type determines the wetland border not where the water is visible. And likely there will be an additional buffer zone beyond where the soil says it stops.

 

[CTyankee]

Anybody deal with a small stream running through their property? My wife and I are looking at a house to buy and I want to eventually put a barn/shop on the property. The problem is that there is a small stream running through the center of the 5 acres. The property is on a slope and it looks like the stream is from runoff up the slope. It is only about 2 feet wide and maybe a foot in depth. It is hard to tell since it is dry and covered in leaves this time if year. Anybody deal with something similar when buying property? Are all streams considered wetlands? I looked at the towns epa wetland map and it doesn't show up there but it does show up on the tax assessors map. I'm worried that the stream will keep me from clearing the land around it for the shop. Its tough to find anything bigger than 2 acres here in connecticut that doesnt have some sort of stream on it. Thoughts?

Keith

Tread carefully...Not sure about other states, but in CT even the existence of a seasonal puddle can bring the wrath of government officials/agencies down upon you. Seeing there IS a record of it on the tax assessors map could pose a problem, unleashing a bunch of restrictions...mainly, but not limited to set back requirements.

IMO it's not worth the risk to avoid addressing the situation up front. Is this an already approved building site? I'd want any purchase contract dependent on the approval of septic system and structure plans.

 

[kd3pc]

We have a seasonal creek on our property that although it has never risen more than a few inches, requires us to keep flood insurance on the place. Expensive as all, and until we paid to have an elevation certificate, FEMA can raise the rates 10-20% yearly, which they had been doing for several years, until we got the certificate that PROVES the measurements. Now it is just EXPENSIVE and the rates only go up 2-5% a year. ie $3K premiums on a 3/4 acre lot, with a $250K house.

I would never own a property that has creek, wetland, pond again. Just too much to deal with (and more every day), and in our case is a strike against you when you want to sell....when the realtor tells a prospect "this property will cost your $250 a month, on top of PITI, for the rest of the time you live here" - they tend to look elsewhere.

This is in VA, and like Patten writes, you have to do everything by the book, and subject to all kinds of zones and setbacks and such. Don't even think about waterfront on Chesapeake Bay, we have a lot there as well, that is in everyone's regulatory hit list of don'ts....not too many Do's.

 

[Professur]

Whatever word you get from the alphabet agencies ... get it in writing, and get it notarized if you can.

 

[stikman56]

Look up the address on your county property tax info. website. All this is covered in ours. Wetlands, if any on the land will be outlined. Look up building codes for your county. Here permits can be had for certain stuff in wetlands, otherwise we have to build 25 feet away and driveways have to be 40 feet away, but even then there are exceptions. My driveway entrance needed to go over a very small piece of wetland buffer and the head guy at the wetlands dept.said there is a 300 sq. ft. exception for that sort of thing, so done deal, driveway went in,no permits needed.

 

[My Old Tools]

move to Texas.

 

[Ironhorse74]

I wish I had the county plat that shows the creek and the bufferzone on my property. I just built a pole barn. It was no big deal because the creek was on the far west side of my 5 acres and we built on the far eastside. HHowever if the creek had run down the center, we would have been screwed. As it is I believe with the house and the shop, I am out of room to build anything else.

Brad

 

[stikman56]

I wish I had the county plat that shows the creek and the bufferzone on my property. I just built a pole barn. It was no big deal because the creek was on the far west side of my 5 acres and we built on the far eastside. HHowever if the creek had run down the center, we would have been screwed. As it is I believe with the house and the shop, I am out of room to build anything else.

Brad

Clark County shows it all. Aren't you in Fargher lake?

 

[machsnell]

I have land in VA with wetland. Up to a tenth of an acre is priced much lower or is almost free? In comparison over a tenth of an acre.

It has to be mitigated and you either create wetland on your property or you buy wetland somewhere and you can get rid of yours.

Also this is done once you have the corps define your wetland area. Ours was defined and then our guy fought it and got it down to a set limit recognized by the corps. From there is where you start to mitigate.

It takes some time and I think it the cost to mitigate 3/4 of an acre was about 90k

In your instance you only need to cross over the wetland? Not build on your wetland?

Crossing a stream shouldn't be a big deal to do however it will cost some time and money.

The wetland on my commercial property was primarily created by previous construction and moving earth on the property. I mistakenly got a wetland study done before purchase and that is what opened Pandora's box. Good for getting property a little cheaper but I wish I had never done it. Most wasn't natural to begin with and I could have gotten rid of it the same way it was created.

I am all about the environment but I an looking at paying over 100 to 150k to remove non native wetlands. I already will have storm ponds which don't count at moving wetlands. Point is storm water is being handled on site.

See who recorded it.


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[theoldwizard1]

In MI, if you have a "wetland" area, or property that touches a "navigable" body of water, you can not do anything without a Department of Environment Quality permit, which they are highly unlikely to issue if involves clearing or building any permanent structures.

You first need to find out who has jurisdiction, the county or the state. Processes and procedures are different location to location. Insert your location in your profile.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I agree with the previous thoughts of talking to the ahj. Don't do anything before you find out what legalities you have to deal with.

That being said, I've seen wetlands built on multiple times. Being allowed to "create" wetlands someplace else and then build on the existing wetlands is BS. The whole point of not allowing wetlands to be built on is to protect the flora and fuana that live there. I'd like to see someone try to relocate every living thing from the wetland they want to bulldoze onto the new one they "created". I'd also like to know what environmental impact studies are done to see what effect a man made wetland has on the surrounding environment.

I've also seen land designated as "Green Acres" built on. That program is supposed to preserve public open spaces as parks or recreation areas FOREVER. How do people get to build homes on it?

By the way, not a rant and in no way am I trying to show disapproval of the OP's idea. Just some observations ..

Tommy

 

[stihlntime]

I have two continuous flowing springs and a fair sized creek on my property. In Missouri they leave you alone as long as you do not alter the natural flow of the springs or creek.

 

[Strouty]

You'd be wise to speak to your town/city hall.

My experience (I'm sure it's very different depending on where you live): If there is an indication of a wetland on your property, when you go for building permits you will likely have to do soil testing to determine how far the wetland extends beyond the stream. The soil type determines the wetland border not where the water is visible. And likely there will be an additional buffer zone beyond where the soil says it stops.

^^^^Not the way to go, do research at the town hall first and do it anonymously. Once you bring it to their attention then it is on record for ever. If it is not on the radar, you may be able to rework the flow with little to no issues, especially if it is in a tree covered area.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

^^^^Not the way to go, do research at the town hall first and do it anonymously. Once you bring it to their attention then it is on record for ever. If it is not on the radar, you may be able to rework the flow with little to no issues, especially if it is in a tree covered area.

Good point. I would add try not to do anything that might be taken as being sneaky, either...

Tommy

 

[Strouty]

That advice was from a direct experience, we had some property that we wanted to put a house on and we knew there was a stream that came from a man made pond. We needed to cross it and wanted to find out what needed to be done so we asked the town and they "suggested" that the CEO come and take a look. When we went to try and get the permit, the CEO made it contingent on a wetland study. Not only did that cost money for the study but it turned 8 acres into about 1.5 due to vernal pools that were essentially puddles created by tire tracks from one of our old logging roads. Had we gone in and leveled things up first, there would have never been an issue. Now it is on record and that land is useless.

 

[c39er]

Don't buy it. Wetlands are only for the birds.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I have a similar wet weather creek (dry most of the year) but is not designated as wetlands. But even then the environmental engineering department during the building permit process stated what I could do and not do in that area. ...

Curious. Who is responsible for marking off the "controlled" area ?

 

[Pluribus]

"Thoughts?"

I think you should ask questions of local folks. Your AHJ already has information about the stream per your post. They can tell you what classification it is, and from that, what the setbacks are for which uses.

Assuming you are planning on permitting your improvements if you buy the place, talking to them about your questions isn't going to be giving them any information they don't already have. General questions for feasibility on purchasing don't initiate a full wetland or critical areas study. Regardless, you WILL likely have to deal with that if/when you go to pull a permit for building. Depending on the rules there, surveys and studies may be required.

 

[kjdhawkhill]

Anybody deal with a small stream running through their property? My wife and I are looking at a house to buy and I want to eventually put a barn/shop on the property. The problem is that there is a small stream running through the center of the 5 acres. The property is on a slope and it looks like the stream is from runoff up the slope. It is only about 2 feet wide and maybe a foot in depth. It is hard to tell since it is dry and covered in leaves this time if year. Anybody deal with something similar when buying property? Are all streams considered wetlands? I looked at the towns epa wetland map and it doesn't show up there but it does show up on the tax assessors map. I'm worried that the stream will keep me from clearing the land around it for the shop. Its tough to find anything bigger than 2 acres here in connecticut that doesnt have some sort of stream on it. Thoughts?



Keith

Sounds like a question best asked by a realtor to the town inspector AND state epa/dnr. Two of the three might not have a problem, but it only takes one.


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[kmacht]

We have the realtor going to town hall on Monday to get the maps. The online wetlands map for the town doesn't show any wetlands on or near the property so I'm hopefull. The house was built in 2007 so the realtor thinks there might br a subplot map of the property on record when it was built that might be more difinitive. There is still room on the property for the barn if the stream does have a 100 foot wetlands buffer but I'm not sure about being able to clear enough land for pastures and a paddock for the horses. I guess I will just have to wait and see.

Keith

 

[404]

IN ADDITION to what local and state agencies may say, these people:

http://www.usace.army.mil/

Will have their own opinions on anything involving water sitting on the ground. People have gotten screwed while building dams or ponds that were OK with local and state agencies.

While I for one am proud and happy to see puddles protected in triplicate, some say the federal agencies have no sense of humor.

 

[Bluedodge]

...bang his wife.

 

[finn]

In MI, if you have a "wetland" area, or property that touches a "navigable" body of water, you can not do anything without a Department of Environment Quality permit, which they are highly unlikely to issue if involves clearing or building any permanent structures.

You first need to find out who has jurisdiction, the county or the state. Processes and procedures are different location to location. Insert your location in your profile.

We built on a navigable body of water in Michigan last year.

We contacted the County Drain Commissioner, filled out a permit application, complete with a hand drawn sketch showing what modifications would be done to the site.
He stopped by to look at the lot the next day and called to tell us he would sign off.

The process is laid out on the County's web site.

The entire process took only a couple of days and was painless.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The entire process took only a couple of days and was painless.

That is just the opposite of what I have heard !

The guy I rent my summer cottage from wanted to replace a failing wooden sea wall on a lake. DEQ took months to process the paper work and then add 2 strange things. The failing corner to the next property had partially washed away so the previous shore front was about 10-15' behind the neighbors. Rock had been added years ago to slow this erosion. DEQ insisted that the erosion NOT be corrected and that the rock in the water NOT be removed ! Beginning to end, it took over 6 months.

Go figure.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I was looking for some property last year somewhat away from the city. I found a decent one, but as soon as I saw a small creek winding through it, I lost all interest. Most of it was lower than the adjoining properties.

 

[bob15]

We have the realtor going to town hall on Monday to get the maps. The online wetlands map for the town doesn't show any wetlands on or near the property so I'm hopefull. The house was built in 2007 so the realtor thinks there might br a subplot map of the property on record when it was built that might be more difinitive. There is still room on the property for the barn if the stream does have a 100 foot wetlands buffer but I'm not sure about being able to clear enough land for pastures and a paddock for the horses. I guess I will just have to wait and see.

Keith

Sorry, but I wouldn't trust the realtor on this one. I would inquire personally, as you have much more to lose. Plus they could misinterpret something or forget to ask something or explain it differently than what was told to them (intentional or non-intentionally).

 

[Exit 61]

Run .............................. and then Run Faster........... you will be dealing w/fed agency's..

 

[kmacht]

Trust but verify. The realtor is going to do the legwork at the town hall to get the subplot maps. for us It will be up to us to determine from the maps if there is an issue or if we need to go talk with someone at town hall ourselves. I trust the realtor as she knows what we are looking for and what we want to do with the property. She lives in the town we are buying in and has been selling there for many years.

Keith

 

[T_R]

Check it out yourself. Don't trust the Realtor or seller for info.

I have a stream that runs seasonally and some wetlands, but nobody cares about stuff like that around here. I wouldn't buy in a town or area that does. Too much hassle.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I'm not sure about being able to clear enough land for pastures and a paddock for the horses.

Negotiate ! There is likely some compromise you can come up with.

 

[Ironhorse74]

Clark County shows it all. Aren't you in Fargher lake?

Yes I am in Fargher Lake. I just checked the county GIS. It hasn't updated since I built my shop. Probably the next assessment cycle.

Brad

 

[finn]

That is just the opposite of what I have heard !

The guy I rent my summer cottage from wanted to replace a failing wooden sea wall on a lake. DEQ took months to process the paper work and then add 2 strange things. The failing corner to the next property had partially washed away so the previous shore front was about 10-15' behind the neighbors. Rock had been added years ago to slow this erosion. DEQ insisted that the erosion NOT be corrected and that the rock in the water NOT be removed ! Beginning to end, it took over 6 months.

Go figure.

That's how many of these stories are perpetuated.

Someone knows a guy who knows a guy who had an issue, but the details are always missing.

Your neighbor's story is suspect.

Likely the adjacent property was illegally filled and the guy wants to illegally fill the lake to match.

That would draw a red flag.

 

[wssix99]

If your land is dry right now and there is not an area for water to collect when it is wet, then it is most likely not a "wetland": https://water.usgs.gov/nwsum/WSP2425/definitions.html

You do need to worry about floods. Your municipality usually won't give you zoning approval to build in a flood zone and your insurance company certainly won't insure you in that situation. (BTW - You should also look in to this to confirm if your house is threatened by that creek and if you should buy special Flood Insurance for your property.)

You should be able to find your property on the FEMA Flood Maps: https://msc.fema.gov/portal Your municipality may also have separate flood maps which they plan/approve zoning off of, which you'd want to reference. (When we were building, our City had those overlayed in their GIS system, which showed all of our local zoning, etc. - so you may be able to get that information online through your zoning department)

 

[jives]

When we we buying property in NY state we went through the same thing. First, find a website with wetlands info. In NY it is part of Environmental Conservation. Educate yourself, because as pointed out earlier the realtor, owner, and local authorities may have no idea.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/5124.html

Some of the wetlands maps are based on fed/state aerial mapping, and no one has really checked to see it is a wetlands or not. I cannot imagine that what amounts to a drainage ditch is wetlands or constitutes a floodplain. We have a "stream" similar to yours that runs along one side of the property. It is a man made ditch that diverts water from the roadside ditch. No wetlands, no floodplain.

 

[CT2012]

Yup.

CT here as well and we passed on a couple of beautiful places because of the wetlands issue back when we were house shopping. I ended up vetting it myself with every conceivable agency--health, environmental, planning, building, zoning, yadda yadda.

The listing agent(s) were useless, and one would think they'd be at least somewhat educated on the matter. Instead they always say, "you'll have to check with the city." Yeah, no s&%!. I get the liability aspect of them offering advice, but fer cryin' out loud, they would have saved me a lot of time & headache by having a cursory understanding and throwing in a bunch of caveats.



Now we're on flat, high & dry dirt. Hoping to do a detached garage in the spring.

Tread carefully...Not sure about other states, but in CT even the existence of a seasonal puddle can bring the wrath of government officials/agencies down upon you. Seeing there IS a record of it on the tax assessors map could pose a problem, unleashing a bunch of restrictions...mainly, but not limited to set back requirements.

IMO it's not worth the risk to avoid addressing the situation up front. Is this an already approved building site? I'd want any purchase contract dependent on the approval of septic system and structure plans.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Even if it is NOT considered a wetland, it may be considered a flood plain and that will have issues with insurance !

 

[hh76]

Check with the municipality. Lots of guessing going on here, and guessing shouldn't be a part of your process.

I've worked on dozens of properties that had wetlands on them, and didn't stop the owners from building.