eyeboltman
Well-known member
A sad day for craftsman guys and gals everywhere !?!? eyeboltman
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What a disgrace
- Thread starter wafrederick
- Start date
willy3486
Well-known member
Many of the complaints here are the reason I buy a lot of stuff used anymore. I have a lot of woodworking stuff and most of it was made before 1960. I also have a lot of the older aluminum cased powered hand tools as well. I hit yard sales,flea markets and online sales sites to get mine. I have had so much trouble with new stuff today I am leary of it. A lot of us companies have went the way powermatic did. Powermatic machines was started in my hometown. I knew some of the family member of the ones who started it. Back in the 60s it was sold by the family to a corporation. Then it was sold a few more times. They eventually sold out to a foreign company,jet. It left this area and hurt a lot of people when it did. I had a lot of family members who worked there . All of these companies leave out and leave their former workers to fend for themselves. Now all of these workers can't buy the stuff and the companies wonder why they aren't selling their stuff. For years we heard the US was moving to a service industry. I got news ,there was a lot more manufacturing workers in this country than service people. Now if you look at the service industry many are gone as well. Don't believe me look for a TV shop,appliance repair or CB shop. When you buy gas is it a food shop as well or does it repair cars too? Sorry for the rant but I miss the days of when I could go into a store for a tool and I might see a tool foreign made every once in a while. Now its the other way around I see every now and then a tool stamped USA.
HandyManny
Well-known member
The sad part is that some of the China built stuff is better made than the USA stuff. I'm convinced that it is the fault of danaher the builder but of the poor standards set by Craftsman.
Maybe, but Danaher does not make all Craftsman tools. Danaher only makes sockets, most ratchets, extentions, and most combo and box wrenches for Craftsman brand. So what I'm getting at is that Danaher only accounts for a very small percentage of hand tools made for the entire Craftsman line. I'm not sure about the locking pliers, but most all of their basic black handle pliers are made by Western Forge in Colorado Springs, CO. Same for their adjustable wrenches, and half of their basic screwdrivers. There is probably about 30 different tool manufacturers and subcontractors who make hand tools for the Craftsman line and that's just the stuff made here domestically. Many of these manufacturers also make various tools for the industrial and professional brands too, like Western Forge does.
While thats true sockets, ratchets, combo wrenches represent a staple for the home or professional mechanic, i'm sure sears sells that stuff quite often, so if they offshore it thats a bit troublesome. Its not like any of those tools are incredibly complex to manufacture either. I dont run to my local sears to get ripped off by buying some rebranded hex keys or pliers. A lot of that stuff can be found under the parent companies name online for less. Point is, they wont be drawing my attention anymore if they cant even stock a set of decent sockets or wrenches made in the US anymore.
jabberwoki
Well-known member
Just tossing out an opinion here.........
Anyone interested in a Danaher tool still made in USA should consider Allen. I've bought quite a few Allen tools in the past six months and would rate them as a higher quality tool than the Craftsman with a comparable price.
Scott
I thought allen was out of business? thats what the dude at tacoma screw said?
HandyManny
Well-known member
I thought allen was out of business? thats what the dude at tacoma screw said?
Allen is still offering hex tools and a few odds and ends under Danaher, but I see a lot of Chinese made Allen stuff now. Actually I think most of it is Asian made and imported now. Last time I saw a set of hex keys by Allen that were USA made was at Lowes about three years ago, but Lowes no longer carries Allen brand hex key wrenches anymore. I have seen some of their stuff at various NAPA Auto parts stores.
Theloniousmonk
Well-known member
Menards has a bunch of Allen, hex and otherwise that are USA stamped... everything from sockets to keys to bars. Nearly generic packaging though, w/ Danahar Corp. on back. Eklind, Bondhaus still makes keys in the US, afaik... along w/ smaller manufacturers like Lisle.
Sears is just trying to improve margins, anyway possible, if that means re-engineering pricing w/ suppliers to import branded tools while keeping the price point the same at the counter, so be it.... I hate it too, but that is what the young MBA's are taught to do these days.
Sears is just trying to improve margins, anyway possible, if that means re-engineering pricing w/ suppliers to import branded tools while keeping the price point the same at the counter, so be it.... I hate it too, but that is what the young MBA's are taught to do these days.
GarageEnvy
Well-known member
Well I know I'll take a beating for this but it's just my opinion. The reason wrenches or anything else is made in China is because it's cheaper. Why is it cheaper? Well for one thing China does not saddle it's industries with as many regulations to comply with. We seem to complain about this inequity all the time but we don't mind using the facilities. Our government has made our business climate so unfriendly to manufacturing that it's a wonder anything is made here any more. Also unions have played a huge role in the demise of US manufacturing. They've strong armed and negotiated companies into manufacturing overseas and bargained themselves right out of a job. My apologies to the hard working union members. This is not an attack on them.
The other half of the equation is that China is buying our debt which we are racking up like crazy. If China wanted to pull the rug out from underneath us they could topple our economy without firing a shot. Of course they'd be damaging their own economy as well. Think about where China is geographically, economically and politically and look at how many emerging markets are close by. Right now they need us as much as we need them. In the not so distant future they might not need us as much. Yeah, I love made in the US stuff but that's not the reality of the business world in a globalized economy. As much as it pains me to say it, I think we should be very careful how we treat China or make some drastic changes in our spending habits.
Sorry for the rant. It just seems like the wrench COO is trivial in comparison to the larger issues at hand.
The other half of the equation is that China is buying our debt which we are racking up like crazy. If China wanted to pull the rug out from underneath us they could topple our economy without firing a shot. Of course they'd be damaging their own economy as well. Think about where China is geographically, economically and politically and look at how many emerging markets are close by. Right now they need us as much as we need them. In the not so distant future they might not need us as much. Yeah, I love made in the US stuff but that's not the reality of the business world in a globalized economy. As much as it pains me to say it, I think we should be very careful how we treat China or make some drastic changes in our spending habits.
Sorry for the rant. It just seems like the wrench COO is trivial in comparison to the larger issues at hand.
HandyManny
Well-known member
I blame our own government and the environmentalists for the bulk of this problem.
brrman
Well-known member
... Last time I saw a set of hex keys by Allen that were USA made was at Lowes about three years ago, but Lowes no longer carries Allen brand hex key wrenches anymore. I have seen some of their stuff at various NAPA Auto parts stores.
Menard's carries the Allen brand. I have seen the USA stamp on much of it.
Theloniousmonk
Well-known member
If anybody blames anybody else for their failed business model (ie government, hostile environment, etc..) then maybe they should not be in business, or change their business model. Everything is connected, lower wages = less spending power = less profits = cost cutting = lower wages, and on and on... NOW, we can BLAME someone for being the chicken or the egg, but it is irrelevant since the blaming will not solve the problem. Unions created the middle class (look it up), taxes built this country (look it up)...
I hate Sears/Craftsman/Danaher/etc... for what they are doing as much as the rest of you, but simplifying the problem to the point of just saying "Government or Greed or Santa Claus" is pointless.
I hate Sears/Craftsman/Danaher/etc... for what they are doing as much as the rest of you, but simplifying the problem to the point of just saying "Government or Greed or Santa Claus" is pointless.
HandyManny
Well-known member
If anybody blames anybody else for their failed business model (ie government, hostile environment, etc..) then maybe they should not be in business, or change their business model. Everything is connected, lower wages = less spending power = less profits = cost cutting = lower wages, and on and on... NOW, we can BLAME someone for being the chicken or the egg, but it is irrelevant since the blaming will not solve the problem. Unions created the middle class (look it up), taxes built this country (look it up)...
I hate Sears/Craftsman/Danaher/etc... for what they are doing as much as the rest of you, but simplifying the problem to the point of just saying "Government or Greed or Santa Claus" is pointless.
Since none of us here on this forum know anything about anything, kindly explain to all of us in detail exactly what a sound business model should be for a fully integrated quality tool manufacturer operating in the U.S.A., using domestic raw materials, and using a domestic workforce who you pay a living wage and benefits too, while still being profitabe. Keeping in mind all of the environmental regulations that exist as well as every other government factor and the fact that things no longer operate the same way they did in 1950 nor is the domestic workforce the same as it was then. Tell us now, we're all ears.
Theloniousmonk
Well-known member
how is the government is at fault for danahar moving manufacturing overseas? tell me how the environmentalists are at fault for ceo's taking massive pay increases whilst their current business model is failing and their company is bankrupt. Basic environmental laws are not the fault of failure of suppliers to stand up to box stores (wally world, hd, lows, sears, etc...) Unions are not at fault for lost wages.
Private Equity Firms (grossly unregulated) have been a huge factor in the outsourcing of jobs over the last 2 decades... bad business decisions on the part of overpaid and under experienced wigwams that had $$$ to begin with killed jobs, company birthrights (tooling/molds/etc...) all in the name of a 10% profit increase every year. These people take no personal responsibility for their actions, they blame share holders, consumers, retailers, gov., etc...
I'm not saying you don't know anything. I'm just saying things are all connected, much more to it than simple blaming of one organization or aspect vs. another. In the end, it is everybody's fault, and we all must take real responsibility for our actions and decisions. Once we do that, we can then start working to change what we have so whole-heartily created.
Private Equity Firms (grossly unregulated) have been a huge factor in the outsourcing of jobs over the last 2 decades... bad business decisions on the part of overpaid and under experienced wigwams that had $$$ to begin with killed jobs, company birthrights (tooling/molds/etc...) all in the name of a 10% profit increase every year. These people take no personal responsibility for their actions, they blame share holders, consumers, retailers, gov., etc...
I'm not saying you don't know anything. I'm just saying things are all connected, much more to it than simple blaming of one organization or aspect vs. another. In the end, it is everybody's fault, and we all must take real responsibility for our actions and decisions. Once we do that, we can then start working to change what we have so whole-heartily created.
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While I am not at all happy that Craftsman locking pliers are not US made, I really can't blame Sears. As far as I know, there are no manufacturers making locking pliers in the U.S. anymore. I believe when Irwin took Vise Grip production to China, that was it.
This is why I do not buy Irwin tools.
HandyManny
Well-known member
how is the government is at fault for danahar moving manufacturing overseas? tell me how the environmentalists are at fault for ceo's taking massive pay increases whilst their current business model is failing and their company is bankrupt. Basic environmental laws are not the fault of failure of suppliers to stand up to box stores (wally world, hd, lows, sears, etc...) Unions are not at fault for lost wages.
Private Equity Firms (grossly unregulated) have been a huge factor in the outsourcing of jobs over the last 2 decades... bad business decisions on the part of overpaid and under experienced wigwams that had $$$ to begin with killed jobs, company birthrights (tooling/molds/etc...) all in the name of a 10% profit increase every year. These people take no personal responsibility for their actions, they blame share holders, consumers, retailers, gov., etc...
I'm not saying you don't know anything. I'm just saying things are all connected, much more to it than simple blaming of one organization or aspect vs. another. In the end, it is everybody's fault, and we all must take real responsibility for our actions and decisions. Once we do that, we can then start working to change what we have so whole-heartily created.
Read up on environmental regulation regarding what manufacturing industries can and can't do anymore. Then you'll understand. In a nutshell the EPA has made it so terribly expensive to operate any manufacturing company in the USA, some more than others depending on what they are manufacturing. It's a matter of extra expensive operations costs and environmental fees in addition to the cost they incure of having to adhear to the new laws in order to be compliant. That money has to come from somewhere, right? And this is only a small fraction (but large cost) of the problem as far as operations costs go. Then you have everything else a company has to spend money on and still be profitable.
I do agree with your point though that to some extent we are all to blame for this problem. Playing the blame game gets us nowhere, it's true. I'm not going to speak about corporate greed because I firmly believe that any corporation or business owner should be able to make as much money and profit as the market will bare. I'm was not playing the blame game so much as I was trying to give an explanation for some of the reasons of why this is all happening.
I'd still like to hear your business model though. Not being sarcastic I know that there are still people out who can come up with a plan to make it work. There is at least one company who is still making it work for the most part - Channellock! For how much longer remains to be seen.
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Theloniousmonk
Well-known member
Wright Tool for another...Lisle Tool Company also comes to mind (Im sure they outsorce some too though)
SK seems to be a prime example of bad behavior on all parts, from top brass, retailer, and managment all the way down to the hourly employee and consumer, a perfect storm.
I see the laws and regulations as just part of the cost to play ball... The Germans have much more strict regulations, their manuacturing seems to be getting along ok... I see less waste as improved efficiency as well.
At some point along the way, the go'ol "work hard" philosophy went down the tubes, then greed and selfish behavior on all levels of the economy took over. No longer are people focused to true productivity and upward mobility/improvement, but more so on shinny gimmicky widgets and how can they get one. Nobody wants to break fingers to get the job done anymore, nobody wants to take a risk and stand up against a potential customer/client and maintain a business model/philosophy/ethic, for fear of "loosing business" when in the end the act itself forces lost business through lower buying power of the general public.
I honestly don't have the answer, alone. Maybe we can all put our heads together and build a business model as a forum? It would be an interesting exercise, to say the least, especially with the limited availability of US material suppliers, etc... high H/C costs and everything inbetween.
SK seems to be a prime example of bad behavior on all parts, from top brass, retailer, and managment all the way down to the hourly employee and consumer, a perfect storm.
I see the laws and regulations as just part of the cost to play ball... The Germans have much more strict regulations, their manuacturing seems to be getting along ok... I see less waste as improved efficiency as well.
At some point along the way, the go'ol "work hard" philosophy went down the tubes, then greed and selfish behavior on all levels of the economy took over. No longer are people focused to true productivity and upward mobility/improvement, but more so on shinny gimmicky widgets and how can they get one. Nobody wants to break fingers to get the job done anymore, nobody wants to take a risk and stand up against a potential customer/client and maintain a business model/philosophy/ethic, for fear of "loosing business" when in the end the act itself forces lost business through lower buying power of the general public.
I honestly don't have the answer, alone. Maybe we can all put our heads together and build a business model as a forum? It would be an interesting exercise, to say the least, especially with the limited availability of US material suppliers, etc... high H/C costs and everything inbetween.
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HandyManny
Well-known member
Wright Tool for another...Lisle Tool Company also comes to mind (Im sure they outsorce some too though)
SK seems to be a prime example of bad behavior on all parts, from top brass, retailer, and managment all the way down to the hourly employee and consumer, a perfect storm.
I see the laws and regulations as just part of the cost to play ball... The Germans have much more strict regulations, their manuacturing seems to be getting along ok... I see less waste as improved efficiency as well.
At some point along the way, the go'ol "work hard" philosophy went down the tubes, then greed and selfish behavior on all levels of the economy took over. No longer are people focused to true productivity and upward mobility/improvement, but more so on shinny gimmicky widgets and how can they get one. Nobody wants to break fingers to get the job done anymore, nobody wants to take a risk and stand up against a potential customer/client and maintain a business model/philosophy/ethic, for fear of "loosing business" when in the end the act itself forces lost business through lower buying power of the general public.
I honestly don't have the answer, alone. Maybe we can all put our heads together and build a business model as a forum? It would be an interesting exercise, to say the least, especially with the limited availability of US material suppliers, etc... high H/C costs and everything inbetween.
We'd have one very big problem these days. A limited and underskilled workforce. Like I always said, few Americans want to get their hands dirty anymore or as you just said, nobody is willing to break a finger to get the job done. It would take at least 20 years to build that back up to what it used to be. Hell, most American high schools don't even offer shop classes or industrial arts anymore, let alone the students who are interested in taking them. I'm not making excused, just making apparent some of the very real obstacles that need to be overcome first.