What a mess

[Mike in Ohio]

A friend asked me to see if I could figure out a problem with the lights in his dads barn,this is what I found. I hope I can make it clear.

1. A 3 way switch controling 2 lights, the other switch is in the house. Only the 2 line wires were run between the buildings, no neutral or ground. Did I mention cloth covered aluminum wire. This comes out of a light fixture on the side of the house.

2. A second line from the house that branches to single pole switch that controls 3 light fixtures,to a pull chain type porcelain fixture, and to an outlet.

Everything in the barn is connected to the neutral of the second circuit. This has worked like this for maybe 60-70 years.

The problem with it now is that when the 3 way switch is on and you turn on the sp the the lights all get very dim. If the 3 way isn't on the lights on the sp don't work at all.

I found that the neutral was loose in a junction box the wire passes through in another building. I rewired everything to work off of the single pole switch for now and convinced my buddy to convince his dad that the barn needs rewired.

We are going to do it 2 weekends from now.

There is no ground any where in the building. The wire from the house is 2 wire with no ground. As far as I can tell nothing in the house is grounded either except the fuse box itself. Should I put a ground rod in at the barn. I know this is not current code but would it be better than no ground at all?

Is there any thing else I should be thinking about here?

Thanks a lot,Mike

 

[ddawg16]

Well....you figured out the 3-way was part of the problem....won't work with just 2 wires.

While I share your concern about no ground.....not that big of a deal as long as the neutral is properly grounded.

And I share your thoughts on the re-wire.....especially to get rid of that cloth covered AL wire.

Ground rod? Any ground is good....MRB or one of the others will need to chime in for a better answer. If it was me, before I was worried about the ground in the garage, I would be making sure that the house had a couple of ground rods connected to the neutral.

Have you measured in the house between the neutral and say the water pipe? If you have anything over about 10v, then the house needs to be addressed first.

 

[JimDon]

No offense meant here , but judging from what I've read, you really need a licensed electrician to help you sort things out. It may cost you some dollars, but way better than killing someone or burning down a structure. BOTH are real possibilities from what I've read.

".....not that big of a deal as long as the neutral is properly grounded."

Do Not ever, ever, make this mistake because it can kill you, loved ones, or others. A neutral is NOT a ground and will never ever act as a ground. A neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING conductor, and to work safely on any electrical, you must know this and understand why! (There's a reason why grounds can be bare, but neutrals must be insulated.)
Good luck with your project and let us know how it works out.
Cheers, JimDon

 

[mrb]

No offense meant here , but judging from what I've read, you really need a licensed electrician to help you sort things out. It may cost you some dollars, but way better than killing someone or burning down a structure. BOTH are real possibilities from what I've read.

".....not that big of a deal as long as the neutral is properly grounded."

Do Not ever, ever, make this mistake because it can kill you, loved ones, or others. A neutral is NOT a ground and will never ever act as a ground. A neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING conductor, and to work safely on any electrical, you must know this and understand why! (There's a reason why grounds can be bare, but neutrals must be insulated.)
Good luck with your project and let us know how it works out.
Cheers, JimDon

when he said that, he meant the neutral being bonded at the far end which is how its done with a 3 wire feeder to a detached structure (which is no longer allowed in new installations)

 

[1950coronet600hp]

got one better for ya.... when me and my girl first got together her house (which she bought from her parents) had electrical problems galore not to mention if ya touched almost any bracket of any switch or socket, ya got a nice zap, half the sockets didn't work, and the switches were the bang to work type lol. anyways i found out that her cousin a long long time ago stuck the cutting end of hair clippers into an exposed live socket, what it did was fried a neutral continuing on to this socket at another socket, and killed the neutral and like 4 plugs and 2 lights after the fried junction. so her dad decided to use the ground as a neutral to get the light in the kitchen to work, thus electrifying all grounds in the house. what a nightmare. but at least it wasn't aluminum wire.... that is just one of the problems I had to fix. to this day I thank god this house didn't burn to the ground.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

We are going to rewire the barn, get rid of all of that old cloth covered aluminum.

Part of my question was about 2 circuits sharing one neutral. I eliminated one of the circuits and everything works as it should now.

So what I have is a 2 wire setup hot and neutral coming from the house. Should I put a ground rod in at the barn? I know this is not the current code but will add some safety to what I have.

Thanks again for the replys,
Mike

 

[1950coronet600hp]

ya sure can, not going to hurt anything.

 

[mrb]

How do you feel that adding a ground rod would make the existing installation safer?

 

[JimDon]

"ya sure can, not going to hurt anything"


Just two words -- ground loop

Jim

 

[mrb]

"ya sure can, not going to hurt anything"


Just two words -- ground loop

Jim

how's a grounding electrode at a detached structure going to cause a 'ground loop' ?

 

[MrMark]

That ground rod wouldn't do a thing with regard to preventing shocks. It's not designed for what you think.

 

[zmf]

Don't do the second ground rod (assuming one at the house). You only want to ground at a single point.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

A neutral is NOT a ground and will not ever ever proceed as a ground. A neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING conductor, and to work securely on any electrical,

I know the neutral carries current that is why I am questioning the 2 separate circuits sharing one neutral.

Don't do the second ground rod (assuming one at the house). You only want to ground at a single point.

I will have to check for sure about a ground at the house, but there is no way to connect the ground from the barn to the house I only have 2 wires, a hot and a neutral coming from the house.

Thanks again for all the replies,

Mike

 

[MrMark]

Don't do the second ground rod (assuming one at the house). You only want to ground at a single point.

Really? I didn't know that. Are you sure about that? I have read that detached structures require their own ground rod. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[MrMark]

A neutral is NOT a ground and will not ever ever proceed as a ground. A neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING conductor, and to work securely on any electrical,

The neutral most certainly is grounded to reference the transformer to earth potential and the neutral is most certainly connected to ground at the panel. The neutral from the panel to the transformer is the ground path for ground faults. In fact, it is the only viable path for fault current to return to the source. So the neutral does proceed as a ground at certain points in the system.

 

[mrb]

Really? I didn't know that. Are you sure about that? I have read that detached structures require their own ground rod. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

actually, you need a grounding electrode. A rod is a way to accomplish that, two rods are required unless you can prove <10 ohms soil resistance, the meter for that is ~$1000 so its cheaper to drive 2 rods 6ft apart and be done with it.

 

[MrMark]

OK Mr. Nonelectrician young whippersnapper, why is it then where I live that we are only required to drive one rod? Sandy soil local override? Truth is no one knows.

 

[ddawg16]

A seperate ground rod is fine....the key point is that you don't bond your neutral in the garage to the ground rod. The neutral is bonded to the ground in only ONE place, the main load center.

 

[ddawg16]

OK Mr. Nonelectrician young whippersnapper, why is it then where I live that we are only required to drive one rod? Sandy soil local override? Truth is no one knows.

When I upgraded my service from 60A to 200A 11 years ago, I only had to install one ground rod next to my incoming water line and run a wire from both of them to my box.

Now they are asking for 2 rods OR 1 rod with and UFER ground. I'm going through all of that right now....

 

[MrMark]

Not here. Just one rod. I just went through this inspection and all as part of an undergrounding project. Never seen two rods on any house in my hamlet. Many didn't even have one before the project.

You don't drive a rod with the UFER. I know that.

None of this matters here anyway. That ground rod doesn't do much of anything here but stabalize the line voltage. We have almost no lightning.

 

[MrMark]

A seperate ground rod is fine....the key point is that you don't bond your neutral in the garage to the ground rod. The neutral is bonded to the ground in only ONE place, the main load center.

That's the key right there.

 

[mrb]

OK Mr. Nonelectrician young whippersnapper, why is it then where I live that we are only required to drive one rod? Sandy soil local override? Truth is no one knows.

i have no idea. I live around 45 min from you and need two. Thats new -one was ok a while ago.

 

[mrb]

A seperate ground rod is fine....the key point is that you don't bond your neutral in the garage to the ground rod. The neutral is bonded to the ground in only ONE place, the main load center.

If you have a 3 wire service (or two wire -no EGC is the point) then the neutral absolutely has to be bonded to ground. In this situation installing a ground rod, and connecting 'grounds' to it creates a dangerous situation as there is no lo impedance path for fault current to return to the source (utility co transformer) as such if you have a 'short' the breaker wont open.

This guy shouldnt even waste money on a ground rod until he redoes the feed to the detached building. Even under todays standards detached structure doesnt require grounding electrode if its supplied with one circuit only.

 

[MrMark]

If you have a 3 wire service (or two wire -no EGC is the point) then the neutral absolutely has to be bonded to ground. In this situation installing a ground rod, and connecting 'grounds' to it creates a dangerous situation as there is no lo impedance path for fault current to return to the source (utility co transformer) as such if you have a 'short' the breaker wont open.

I'm going to assume that you are using this as a teaching moment because the deputy and I were not talking about "3 wire" BSing. We were discussing a modern proper setup. I think you know that.

 

[mrb]

I'm going to assume that you are using this as a teaching moment because the deputy and I were not talking about "3 wire" BSing. We were discussing a modern proper setup. I think you know that.

actually i didnt. I was responding based on the OPs asking about installing a ground rod at the barn with the existing wiring. Of course a 3 wire system would not be installed today and the ground rod(s) would not be connected to the neutral at the detached structure.