What can I run on a surge protector?

[vavet]

I built a table to hold my contractor table saw and miter saw. As it is now, I have a 12 gauge extension cord with a 3way splitter at the end running power to it so I don’t have to constantly switch plugs. I usually keep my shop vac/dust collector plugged in also, I was thinking of attaching a power strip inside and keeping everything plugged in all the time. I have one in my garage that lists a max of 1800 watts. That means 15 amps at 120v. Since my circuits have 15 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire, I assume this would be ok unless I start both the miter saw and table saw at the same time. This won’t happen, but I would certainly have the shop vac running at the same time that one of the saws start. The startup current would exceed 15 amps, but only for a second.

Would this fry the surge protector? I think I can get a power strip that’s not a surge protector. Maybe that’s more appropriate in this case?

 

[u2slow]

If I ever bother with surge protection, its on electronics - not power tools.

Could also replace the cord end with a 4x4" box and couple duplex receptacles.

 

[sberry]

3 way.

 

[dogdog]

I like surge protectors... most have a build in breaker that I don't run back to the breaker box to reset...

what can you run.. anything that is within the range of that breaker on the surge protector ?

 

[Norcal]

A lot of people confuse power strips with surge protectors, not all power strips have surge protection, & some of those junkers can be called fire starters.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I wouldnt bother with a surge protector on motorized power tools.

Surge protectors are for electronics

 

[MarvinBerry]

Surge protectors, like the basic $4 ones won't help prevent tripped breakers at the box and or cords that short from bring overloaded.

Amps at biz end of the cord vs cable length & gauge vs draw...

Was there a question somewhere in here?

 

[dogdog]

what is physically different from surge protectors and power strips ?

 

[californiaHank]

what is physically different from surge protectors and power strips ?

Not much difference, usually. Most things sold as 'surge protectors' these days are just regular power strips with a circuit breaker plus a metal oxide varistor (MOV) or two connected between the hot and neutral wires on the power strip. If a short (very short - a few microseconds or shorter) surge (high voltage spike) makes it to the power bar, the MOV conducts and dissipates the energy as heat, and prevents the voltage spike from getting to whatever's plugged into the power strip.

The breaker's nice to have for safety and convenience. The MOV doesn't hurt anything, and might help in some circumstances on some (mainly older) electronic equipment.

There are more expensive surge protectors with more sophisticated protection circuitry to eliminate voltage spikes and line noise, like the 'Isobar' brand ones from Tripp-Lite, but I'm guessing the OP has one of basic ones. The better quality ones are useful for protecting sensitive AV components and other electronic equipment.

You can plug any normal shop equipment into either the simple ones or the more sophisticated ones, and they won't do any harm so long as you respect the maximum current rating marked on the circuit breaker.

 

[laser3kw]

I wouldnt bother with a surge protector on motorized power tools.

Surge protectors are for electronics

As others have said, the surge protection is a discreet component meant for very intermittent operation.
high load (starting a motor) and noisy motors tend to burn out the "surge protector" part of power strips rather fast. You won't notice the difference when it's gone. Our housekeeping here at work constantly burn out portions of power strips plugging their (industrial) vacuum cleaner (20 amp).

 

[rlitman]

Not much difference, usually. Most things sold as 'surge protectors' these days are just regular power strips with a circuit breaker plus a metal oxide varistor (MOV) or two connected between the hot and neutral wires on the power strip. If a short (very short - a few microseconds or shorter) surge (high voltage spike) makes it to the power bar, the MOV conducts and dissipates the energy as heat, and prevents the voltage spike from getting to whatever's plugged into the power strip...

Actually, they will have MOVs between hot and neutral, but also more between hot and ground, and also between neutral and ground. They ALL work together to short out during a momentary surge, expelling the energy as both heat and through chemical damage internally. That's why the ground is so critical to a TVSS working. 2/3 of your protection relies on it.

Anyway, that's all immaterial to the OP. He's just asking if a power strip is any better or worse than a triple tap cord. The answer is unfortunately "maybe". Some power strips just plain ****. So do dome cord ends. All SHOULD work equivalently though.

And he needs to find a second circuit somewhere to run the shop vac simultaneously with the saws.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you can run what ever you want from a surge protector until the smoke leaks out.

It is not common knowledge that smoke is put into electrical and electronic equipment at the factory, but once the smoke leaks out the electrical and electronic equipment will no longer work.

Smoke, the oxide of unobtainium, is almost impossible to reload into electrical and electronic equipment.

 

[johnnyradiant]

I've encountered a few appliances fried that MAY have benefited from a decent protector. Not so sure they would have, but without any protector they certainly didn't stand a chance. You have to hope enough $'s worth of gear is fried that the insurance company can help with the cost enough to make the claim worthwhile, or barely anything of value is fried so that your share of the wallet grab doesn't hurt.

The 'smoke' is just proof that it wasn't a cheap knock-off imitation.

 

[u2slow]

Why not a surge-protector accessory at the main panel?

I've encountered a few appliances fried that MAY have benefited from a decent protector.

Most appliances these days are full of electronics. My 1977 GE electric range just keeps on working.

 

[westom]

The startup current would exceed 15 amps, but only for a second.

So many facts to address in that post. For example, power seven 100 watt incandescent bulbs simultaneously from a 15 amp circuit breaker. Bulbs will initially demand somewhere between 50 and 60 amps. And must never trip a 15 amp breaker.

We dumb it down with a simple number. We don't tell you that and why a 15 amp breaker and wires will safely provide so many more amps. That maybe 10 amps on a power machine is a summary number that also says it might demand 30 amps when starting. A dumbed down amp number, that we tell you, eliminates confusion.

Second, shape of that wall receptacle says it can only safely provide 15 amps (even if on a 20 amp breaker). Shape of a mating plug says it will not demand more than 13 amps. All those shapes are to protect humans - avert overloads.

However, powering multiple devices from a power strip means excessive power from that wall receptacle. So all power strips (with and without protector parts) should have a circuit breaker. So that human mistakes do not create safety problems.

Third, protector parts do absolutely nothing until AC voltage well exceeds a let-through voltage (ie 330 volts). How does any motorized appliance on a power strip create an AC voltage that approaches or exceeds 1000 volts? That load does not harm protector parts.

Four, protector parts, located adjacent to appliances, can even make transient damage easier. Protector parts are effective when distant from appliances and as close as possible to earth ground electrodes (ie a less than 10 foot connection).

Informed consumers properly earth a 'whole house' protector in a breaker box or meter pan. Then every appliance inside a house is protected even from direct lightning strikes. That is always how protection was done in facilities that cannot have damage. And that cannot have this created by power strips with protector parts: https://imgur.com/X4s2tso

Best power strip has a 15 amp circuit breaker, no protector parts, and a UL 1363 listing.

 

[vavet]

OP here...I'm not concerned so much about the surge protection abilities of the device that I use. I just want a convenient way to keep everything plugged in.
If the surge protection fails and then it keeps functioning as a power strip, I'm fine with that. If it fails but the receptacles fail in the open circuit condition, then it was just a waste of a power strip.

 

[sberry]

Second, shape of that wall receptacle says it can only safely provide 15 amps (even if on a 20 amp breaker). Shape of a mating plug says it will not demand more than 13 amps. All those shapes are to protect humans - avert overloads.

All it says is the recept wont take a 20, it will pass thru 20.

However, powering multiple devices from a power strip means excessive power from that wall receptacle. So all power strips (with and without protector parts) should have a circuit breaker. So that human mistakes do not create safety problems.

Only power strips with smaller 14 wire need a breaker, a 3 way or 3 way tap or strip on a 12 doesn't need a breaker. What it does do is prevent tripping a 20 on thermal and overloading its own cord.
I believe nema may limit 13 to continuous load for a 15, that's for the cord.

 

[sberry]

Lots of,,, most 15 recepts are on 20,,, the 20A plug was designed as a preventer,,, to keep people from using that equipment on general circuits,,, it might not even need that much current, lots of 20 ends used on 14 and even some 16 cord in institutions to keep the cleaning lady from using shared circuits.

 

[rlitman]

All it says is the recept wont take a 20, it will pass thru 20.
Only power strips with smaller 14 wire need a breaker, a 3 way or 3 way tap or strip on a 12 doesn't need a breaker. What it does do is prevent tripping a 20 on thermal.
I believe nema may limit 13 to continuous load for a 15, that's for the cord.

First off, most power strips are fed with a 16AWG wire. And plenty of triple tap 16AWG cords exist without any over-current protection. And they are even allowed to be used in 20A circuits. Don't confuse in-wall NEC specified wire gauges with the gauges allowed for things you plug in. They're working off different charts in different books.

Continuous load for any circuit (except circuits specifically engineered for continuous load) is limited to 80% of the circuit ampacity. For a 15A circuit, that's 14A.

Power strip circuit breakers usually don't have thermal protection.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

12a not 14a for 15a circuit

 

[westom]

If the surge protection fails and then it keeps functioning as a power strip, I'm fine with that. If it fails but the receptacles fail in the open circuit condition, then it was just a waste of a power strip.

Unfortunately, protector parts can fail and cause this: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg Also why cruise ships confiscate them. They take fire far more seriously. Informed consumers spend significantly less money for a power strip that has no protector parts, has that circuit breaker, and has a UL1363 listing.

Other misinformation. Circuit breaker does not exist because of a 16 or 14 AWG wire. Many do not know that 14 AWG was the standard 20 amp wire - safe for many generations and still in most older homes.

Power on seven 100 watt incandescent bulbs simultaneously. These will suddenly demand somewhere between 50 and 60 amps - safely on that existing and old 14 AWG wire. Unfortunately many do not know this, do not understand why that circuit breaker exists, or why we currently use 12 AWG wire for 20 amp circuits. Even 16 AWG is safe. But insufficient for other electrical reasons that are irrelevant here.

Shape of that receptacle (see https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA156527/) means one attached appliance must not consume more than 13 amps from what is only a 15 amp receptacle. It is a 15 amp - not 20 amp - receptacle. That citation defines same numbers.

Breaker must exist because that receptacle is only 15 amps. Which is also why that receptacle is called a NEMA 5-15 receptacle. 15 for its maximum current number.

Safer power strip has no protector parts - if 'whole house' protection does not exist.

 

[sberry]

If 14 wire was sufficient then why add the breaker? Just like those little fans with a duplex on them,, 16 cord, 10 breaker.

 

[sberry]

Power strip circuit breakers usually don't have thermal protection

that's what they are,,, the short circuit is from the line breaker. I don't think a 3 way on a 16 is even listed anymore. Most are 14 wire,, if they have 16 the reset is 10A

Shape of that receptacle (see https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA156527/) means one attached appliance must not consume more than 13 amps from what is only a 15 amp receptacle. It is a 15 amp - not 20 amp - receptacle. That citation defines same numbers.

Breaker must exist because that receptacle is only 15 amps. Which is also why that receptacle is called a NEMA 5-15 receptacle. 15 for its maximum current number.

These are allowed on 20A,, the 15 breaker is for the wire. The 15 recepts only purpose is to deny a 20 plug.

 

[rlitman]

Unfortunately, protector parts can fail and cause this: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg Also why cruise ships confiscate them. They take fire far more seriously. Informed consumers spend significantly less money for a power strip that has no protector parts, has that circuit breaker, and has a UL1363 listing. ...

They're not -supposed- to fail like that, and yet the do. Cruise ships are an interesting case where power quality is demonstrably bad, and fire risk is especially high. Cruise ship power is bad enough that you'll be far more likely to see a surge protector fail on one than you would on a normal power grid.

 

[u2slow]

They're not -supposed- to fail like that, and yet the do. Cruise ships are an interesting case where power quality is demonstrably bad, and fire risk is especially high. Cruise ship power is bad enough that you'll be far more likely to see a surge protector fail on one than you would on a normal power grid.

Devices like power taps and surge protectors must be approved for ship-board use. Typically ships use ungrounded systems also, and both flat prongs in a standard receptacle are 'hot'. That means a shore-based surge protector won't work as intended.

 

[sberry]

You got me on this, dont know about cruise ships but if I am on one will likely be more interested in checking out trophy wives now widowed with 50 and 100's hanging out of their pockets than the electric system.
Reminds me,,, should be upgrading my dancing lessons and getting a few new duds.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Devices like power taps and surge protectors must be approved for ship-board use. Typically ships use ungrounded systems also, and both flat prongs in a standard receptacle are 'hot'. That means a shore-based surge protector won't work as intended.

I dont know diddly about cruise ship wiring but why would both hot and neutral side of the outlet be hot?

 

[rlitman]

I dont know diddly about cruise ship wiring but why would both hot and neutral side of the outlet be hot?

In an un-grounded AC scenario, it is actually conceivable that neither side is "hot". Not that both sides are hot.

 

[u2slow]

I dont know diddly about cruise ship wiring but why would both hot and neutral side of the outlet be hot?

3Ø ungrounded delta is a traditional arrangement on larger ships. Typically a 3-phase transformer for every utilization voltage. No grounded phase/conductor, so all three 120V legs are 'hot'. Ground prong is bonded to the ship.

Modern cruise ships may be doing things differently again.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

3Ø ungrounded delta is a traditional arrangement on larger ships. Typically a 3-phase transformer for every utilization voltage. No grounded phase/conductor, so all three 120V legs are 'hot'. Ground prong is bonded to the ship.

Modern cruise ships may be doing things differently again.

Umm 3phase delta 240 does not give 120v to neutral on all 3 legs. The hi-leg or stinger leg is 208v to neutral.

It wouldnt make sense to use delta as only 2 legs can be utilitized for 120v loads.

Perhaps theyre using 208Y/120?

Also, if the ground prong is bonded to ship chassis why not have the neutral bonded? Otherwise, breakers would not be able to clear ground faults

 

[u2slow]

Umm 3phase delta 240 does not give 120v to neutral on all 3 legs. The hi-leg or stinger leg is 208v to neutral.

It wouldnt make sense to use delta as only 2 legs can be utilitized for 120v loads.

Perhaps theyre using 208Y/120?

Also, if the ground prong is bonded to ship chassis why not have the neutral bonded? Otherwise, breakers would not be able to clear ground faults

3Ø delta 120V. Usually provided from a 480/120v or 600/120v transformer. No high leg. 3 phase conductors.

240V comes from a different transformer and panel.

 

[westom]

If 14 wire was sufficient then why add the breaker?

Previously explained. That receptacle only safely provides 15 amps. Shaped so that only one 13 amp appliance will be powered. But a power strip means many 13 amp appliances can be powered from that one receptacle when a human makes a mistake. A circuit breaker exists (backup protection) so that a human mistake does not threaten human life.

That circuit breaker and thermal fuse are (and this should have been obvious) completely different devices. Circuit breaker disconnects power to appliances (an overload). Thermal fuse only disconnects protector parts (catastrophic failure). It leaves power (and a surge) still connected to appliances.

If cruise ship power is worse, then numbers said so. Ship power is a less threat to protector parts. In a home, protector parts are powered by 120 VAC. In a cruise ship, those same parts are only powered by 60 VAC. Power strips in homes and, even in better conditions, aboard ships create fires.

Once we include numbers (and other factors such as lightning), then power is demonstrably worse in homes.

APC recently admitted some 15 million power strips must be removed due to so many hundreds of house fires. Fires created by strips with protector parts are too common. So a cruise ship may confiscate it.

A 'hot' neutral is considered safe because its voltage is only 60 volts to safety ground. A phone line is safe because it may be only 50 volts. Voltages above 60 are dangerous.

Meanwhile and again, the point. Those near zero joule 'profit center' protectors are not only inferior to protection inside appliances. They have a history of creating house fire: "House fire caused by faulty surge protector not on recall list, Kingwood chief says":
http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2013/10/house_fire_was_caused_by_fault.html

A pre-dawn fire at a home here yesterday was caused by a surge protector/power strip that overheated and caught fire, the township fire company chief reported today. ...

The chief said that three items were plugged into the surge protector, including a TV and a game console. "There was nothing that would have overloaded it at all."

It overheated and was not overloaded. It was a power strip with protector parts.

Those things are better protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. That is robust and that costs tens of times less money per appliance. It comes from other companies known for their integrity.

 

[sberry]

Shaped so that only one 13 amp appliance will be powered. But a power strip means many 13 amp appliances can be powered from that one receptacle when a human makes a mistake. A circuit breaker exists (backup protection) so that a human mistake does not threaten human life.

Me thinks you need to rethink this just a little. there are often many outlets on a 15A circuit. The breaker is not a backup. The internals are the same for a 15 recept and a 20 If all the load on a 20A is thru a strip it wont overload it. A 15 in the wall will pass thru 20,, hence the invention of a 3 way which includes no additional breaker. This is one of the particular of that little breaker, its not great at short circuit,,, that is still the primary job of the once some additional thermal is added. The breaker provides thermal to the building part of the circuit if other recepts on it were used in combination with the strip.
You are adding multiple outlets thru a smaller wire, use a 3 way or heavy enough wire and don't need the additional breaker. I still got a couple pieces,,, I have on a 15 but if they ever got moved one might assume the internals were 20A and they are not. I need to change a couple cords and a little wire one of these days.

 

[sberry]

I cant even remember thee last time I saw a 20 plug outside of institutional ,,,, maybe on a Graco rental sprayer, maybe but its been a while. Most of them I see on 14 cord and even on 16 and were field installed to prevent the cleaning lady from using general circuits.

 

[sberry]

Its the plug is 15,,,, not the recept,, it simply does not accept a 20 plug.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

3Ø delta 120V. Usually provided from a 480/120v or 600/120v transformer. No high leg. 3 phase conductors.

240V comes from a different transformer and panel.

so where does the neutral come from them?

It would have to come from a center tap on one of the windings. This naturally creates a high leg since the windings of delta wound transformers are not tied on one end like wye.

 

[PelicanPines]

I cant even remember thee last time I saw a 20 plug outside of institutional ,,,, maybe on a Graco rental sprayer, maybe but its been a while. Most of them I see on 14 cord and even on 16 and were field installed to prevent the cleaning lady from using general circuits.

Last 20 plug I remember was on an electron microscope at the university I was working at... well I guess that would be an institution. Pretty sure my uncle had a window AC unit with a 20 plug...

 

[u2slow]

so where does the neutral come from them?

There is none. It's just like a vanilla 240v 3-phase delta on shore-side... but at half the voltage. Two phase conductors are landed on each receptacle. 2-pole breaker for every 120v circuit.

A surge protector made for a grounded system won't do the same job here. It can even introduce a fault if it fails, which trips the engineers' ground fault lights.... now they're scrambling looking for a ground fault in the ship, but it's due to the garbage surge protector you brought from home

 

[sberry]

With the fire from surge/power is it the surge parts faulty or the strip?

 

[sberry]

They used to use 20 ac in mobile to prevent them from plugging in to general