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What grade for truck bed bolts?

kctyphoon

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Had to grind the heads off 2 of the bolts holding the bed down on my old f350 dually. Are grade 5 replacements good enough ya think? Or should I just get grade 8's and be done with it??? I'm probably just gonna replace all 6 anyway since the stocks are carriage bolts and they have a habit of rounding out in the holes when they need to be removed anyway.. thanks in advance
 
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General Geoff

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Grade 5 is probably fine, but for the extra couple bucks I'd just replace with grade 8. I'm not a bean counter trying to shave $2 off the cost per unit of manufacturing thousands of trucks.
 

sberry

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5 are good. Very few applications call for 8 and they are usually highly engineered. Usually found in specialized machinery connections. A truck bed is not one of them.
 

davewo

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If you're not buying OEM, but are buying from a reputable fastener supplier, grade 5 is good.
 

pistolpete1313

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Grade 8 are more brittle iirc. Due to the flexing, vibrating and pounding of a bed I'd think the grade 5 would be preferred. Zinc plates of course.
 

rlitman

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Grade 8 are more brittle iirc. Due to the flexing, vibrating and pounding of a bed I'd think the grade 5 would be preferred. Zinc plates of course.



Yes. Also, grade 8 can be sensitive to crevice corrosion cracking. Grade 5 should hold up better to corrosion.
 

finn

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Grade 8 has a higher tensile strength than grade 5, and is not more "brittle".

I don't know where these old wife's tales come from or why they keep popping up on the internet.
 

WhiffySpark

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Grade 8 has a higher tensile strength than grade 5, and is not more "brittle".

I don't know where these old wife's tales come from or why they keep popping up on the internet.

Experince. I broke a handful of grade 8s. Changed to grade 5 no more issues
 

Stevenn1

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1999+ Super Dutys have long assed torx bolts with no nut on the back side. I agree with above, I would go with stock/dealer bolts.
 

5.0 clunker

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+1 for OEM bolts. you will thank yourself when if the time comes to take the bed off.
 

ovrrdrive

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Me personally if it was my truck I'd go with grade 8 and forget about it. If 2 are that bad I'd go ahead and replace the other bolts too.
 

toddoky

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The OE's don't spend any more money on fasteners than they need to to achieve the required strength for any particular bolted connection and the associated factor of safety designed into it, so if the OE bolts are Grade 8 (or metric 10.9 or 12.9) then you would be wise to replace them with bolts of the same grade.
 
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nes999

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Grade 8 stainless steel is what I would use. At a decent industrial supply you are talking about 5 bucks for those total for me it's a no brainer.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 

Firebrick43

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Shouldn't you cite your science and engineering if you're going to call something out as urban myth?

Sort of hard to cite references that won't exist? Yet if grade 8 bolts are more "brittle" that would be in engineering studies. Can you give a citation for that?

It's a wag but I am guessing wiffyspark got either some no name Chinese bolts marked as grade eight but did not meet specks or it was a batch of defective bolts. Humans do make mistakes.
 
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kctyphoon

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The stocks are carriage type bolts, and the 2 I needed to cut were because square bed rails holes rounded out trying to remove them.. so OEM isn't really an option.. I'm gonna replace all 6 anyway with regular hex heads (bed liner will cover them anyway) so if I, or a future owner - ever needs to remove them all again it won't be such a headache..
 

sberry

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I took a whole bulldozer apart, 10 grade 8 bolts in the whole thing in specialty connections. The bolts in a factory box aint much better than 2, they really keep it from sliding around.
I read that and others lke it, 2 points. All this only means a pinch of **** if the connection is marginal or engineered, other wise there is a high margin of safety, if its plenty strong enough then it doesn't matter and second no bolt should really be installed dry.
The engineers of old understood this, the old snap torque wrench manual says, all torque values are for clean lightly oiled threads, they simply stick before providing proper tension. Look at motors manual for torque specs for engines, says the same thing.
On a NC thread 40% of the torque is use to overcome thread friction at best, never know where this number is on a dry bolt. Adam C on here is engineer , he and I disagree about the need for a snap F80 ratchet but this we agree completely on. People doing common general work are not dealing with connection that have this fine line engineering cept for some specialty components. Almost all general engine bolts are 5 and work fine even with rudimentary tightening. I do agree with the guy about getting them tight enough, we see some failures due to that as well as wheels come loose from stuck threads when installed, yes it quits turning but not tight and hasn't provided the tension to hold the wheel on.
Similar to dry threads on a common C clamp, poor tension, little spray and it works so much better.
 
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ttpete

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Grade 8 stainless steel is what I would use. At a decent industrial supply you are talking about 5 bucks for those total for me it's a no brainer.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

No such thing as grade 8 stainless. Stainless is weaker than high tensile steel.

I'd go with OEM hardware. Ford has a fastener engineering group that specs out every fastener used on a vehicle.
 

toddoky

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Carriage bolts can be obtained in Grade 5 or Grade 8 (or metric 10.9 and 12.9 in the quantities OE's purchase them in). The bolts do more than keep the bed from sliding around...they provide a factor of safety to keep the bed firmly attached to the truck in cases of a catastrophic collision/impact.
 

nes999

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No such thing as grade 8 stainless. Stainless is weaker than high tensile steel.

I'd go with OEM hardware. Ford has a fastener engineering group that specs out every fastener used on a vehicle.
I need to check what I have been buying. Because over the last year I have told I was buying grade boxes of grade 8 stainless. This really is concerning me now.
 

HanShotFirst

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For an individual, the difference in price between grade 5 & 8 is negligible; just buy the grade 8's and be done with it.
 

MaineGuide

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Sort of hard to cite references that won't exist? Yet if grade 8 bolts are more "brittle" that would be in engineering studies. Can you give a citation for that?

It's a wag but I am guessing wiffyspark got either some no name Chinese bolts marked as grade eight but did not meet specks or it was a batch of defective bolts. Humans do make mistakes.

I'll have to see if one of my old coworkers has the tech manuals we used to consult when determining what bolt to recommend for an application (we specialized in structural applications but also sold to general construction and industrial users); if I can track one down, I can give a true citation.

In the mean time, I'll send you here: https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/materials.aspx

Take a look at the last section under 'General'.

"When replacing fasteners, it is generally best to match what you are replacing. Replacing a bolt with a stronger one is not always safe. Harder bolts tend to be more brittle and may fail in specific applications. Also some equipment is designed so that the bolts will fail before more expensive or critical items are damaged."

They aren't the only vendor to mention this, I've dealt with others over the phone, who have actual engineers as their technical support.

I'll see what else I can dig up. It's not as black and white as 'Grade 8 is stronger so it must be better.' Different applications require different grades of fasteners. The rockcrawler.com article is a good discussion but is incorrect when mentioning that OEM's use grade 5 vs 8 as a cost cutting measure.
 

ttpete

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Carriage bolts can be obtained in Grade 5 or Grade 8 (or metric 10.9 and 12.9 in the quantities OE's purchase them in). The bolts do more than keep the bed from sliding around...they provide a factor of safety to keep the bed firmly attached to the truck in cases of a catastrophic collision/impact.

Ford doesn't use carriage bolts. They use a torx head bolt. A carriage bolt has a plain round head with a square shank under the head to prevent rotation and it is designed to be used in wood construction. There's no way to put a wrench on a carriage bolt head.
 

rlitman

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Urban myth / anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science and engineering.

Well then I'll leave it up to you to find the research on stress corrosion cracking of Grade 8 (and therefore 10.9) bolts.

But if you want the cliff notes, it is an issue in zinc plated grade 8 bolts 1" and larger in diameter, but not an issue in zinc plated grade 8 bolts under 1" in diameter. If there is no plating, it may be an issue in the smaller sizes too, and 12.9 bolts most certainly have corrosion issues.

No such thing as grade 8 stainless. Stainless is weaker than high tensile steel...

17-4 PH stainless bolts exceed Grade 8 strength.
But yeah, I don't think that you'll find Grade 8 markings on stainless bolts.
 

sberry

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The bolts do more than keep the bed from sliding around...they provide a factor of safety to keep the bed firmly attached to the truck in cases of a catastrophic collision/impact.
Yes they do but that isn't the normal load they are subjected to. The loads are simply riding on steel and the bolts are hooking sheet metal to the frame, strong enough it will rip away before the actual bolt becomes much a factor.
Back when we had more men we used to only stock 5, no number 2 at all just so someone didn't use a soft bolt where they shouldn't. I took a machine apart a while back some lame help put together from another shop, the bolts did not break but they did not tighten sufficiently or get tight enough as was expressed in the article. Let the pieces work loose. Wrong bolt, dirty dry threads and likely hand tightened.
Seen a ball joint come loose a while back, all the correct stuff but hand tightened.
 
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toddoky

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Ford doesn't use carriage bolts. They use a torx head bolt. A carriage bolt has a plain round head with a square shank under the head to prevent rotation and it is designed to be used in wood construction. There's no way to put a wrench on a carriage bolt head.

I'm quite aware of what a carriage bolt is; the OP stated the bolts in his bed were carriage bolts, so I assumed that they were with nuts on the bottom. Carriage bolts are used in more applications than wood construction.
 
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toddoky

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Yes they do but that isn't the normal load they are subjected to. The loads are simply riding on steel and the bolts are hooking sheet metal to the frame, strong enough it will rip away before the actual bolt becomes much a factor.
Back when we had more men we used to only stock 5, no number 2 at all just so someone didn't use a soft bolt where they shouldn't. I took a machine apart a while back some lame help put together from another shop, the bolts did not break but they did not tighten sufficiently or get tight enough as was expressed in the article. Let the pieces work loose. Wrong bolt, dirty dry threads and likely hand tightened.
Seen a ball joint come loose a while back, all the correct stuff but hand tightened.

Call me crazy, I always replace broken/missing/worn-out hardware with the same grade as the OE hardware or sometimes upgrade from Grade 5 to 8. I would never down-grade from Grade 8 to 5, or even 2.
 

MoonRise

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Bowmalloy. :lol:

https://classc.mscdirect.com/Media/Default/pdf/eng/brochures/K-25 Bowmalloy Brochure.pdf

Don't want to deal with the stripped-out square recess of the OEM carriage bolts?

Grade 5 hex heads should be plenty strong.

The common carriage bolt is about a Grade 2 or Grade A, with a minimum tensile strength of about 60 ksi (depending on exact spec and exact size).

An SAE Grade 5 bolt has a minimum tensile strength of 120 ksi (up to 1" diameter, drops off to 105 ksi for sizes from 1-1/8" to 1-1/2" diameter).

An SAE Grade 8 bolt has a minimum tensile strength of 150 ksi.

I'd look into the corrosion resistance though. (I hate working on/with crusty rusty fasteners. Uggh.)
 

rlitman

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...I would never down-grade from Grade 8 to 5, or even 2.

I don't think anybody ever implied that in this thread.
Many people said to only use OE bolts. But nobody has confirmed the grade of the OE bolts to begin with.
 

lakeroadster

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Grade 8 has a higher tensile strength than grade 5, and is not more "brittle".

I don't know where these old wife's tales come from or why they keep popping up on the internet.

Experince. I broke a handful of grade 8s. Changed to grade 5 no more issues

Urban myth / anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science and engineering.

The Mechanical Specifications clearly shows that Grade 8 is allowed to be more brittle than Grade 5.

ASTM A307 Reduction of area specifications:
  • Grade-5: 14% minimum
  • Grade-8: 12% minimum

Source: http://www.aspenfasteners.com/v/vspfiles/files/docs/tapbolt_specs.pdf
 
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toddoky

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I don't think anybody ever implied that in this thread.
Many people said to only use OE bolts. But nobody has confirmed the grade of the OE bolts to begin with.

Sberry stated that the stock bolts aren't much better than Grade 2 in his post, which is what I was responding to. If the grade can't be determined then using OE bolts to replace them is the best practice.
 
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sberry

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What I was getting at is that this isn't a critical hi tensile bolt. I had some knob go to tighten one on a new truck and snapped it right off. Its been a while now but a common bolt may even be a size bigger at the threaded section?? seems that may have been neck down, don't quote me on that though. While corrosion isn't good doubt a fuzz is a deal breaker here, they get reused all the time.
This all could or would be potentially more significant if it was all continuously overloaded too. Similar to pipe and wire size, sure at 20A and 100 ft there is more V drop than the common load plugged in thru a 15 end on a power tool that draws 13A and 25 ft used intermittently.
The connection would be more critical for a scrap steel guy strapping full boxes with chains to it every day at hi hiway speeds on ruff roads. If the box is empty, no strapped load to it then this is pretty much moot.
 
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