What if Craftsman?

[Brownsfan]

I posted this question in the Gearwrench takes over the world thread. What if Craftsman tools were now China made BUT were basically Gearwrench clones. Would this have made it better? The 60t ratchet replaces the good old raised panel? I am talking the entire hand tool line top to bottom or just the hardline stuff and leave the other stuff the way it is(pliers screwdrivers etc).

 

[Pudge87]

That thread isn't suppose to be a taking over the world type deal. Just a its on the rise type deal. I think Craftsman should've stayed to what made it famous. I guess they're providing to the mass market and not to us GJ folks

 

[jakemac]

Until Craftsman commits to bringing manufacturing back to the US, they will always be diminished in my eyes no matter what the quality. Craftsman made it's reputation, not because of the quality, but because their tools were "Made in the USA, with Pride". That tag was a major part of their sales and marketing for decades. The commitment to quality was secondary, the profits were farther down the list. Now that Bain Capital owns Sears Holdings, I only see the name and the brand being run into the ground at Mach speed. Profits come before everything else, quality is only considered in terms of how it effects profit. I weep.

 

[Brownsfan]

I was just kidding on the taking over the world thing. It's not just the garage journal types noticing the china thing. I was there(sears) last week and a older guy(50's-60's) noticed the made in china on a socket set he picked up and he was beside himself. Would it have gone over better had they made the tools good quality basically gearwrench rebrands? I too am not thrilled with their china decision and I am glad I have my socket set complete with USA craftsman. I also have a nice amount of pro screwdrivers as well as wrenches.

 

[NWphotog]

I think profits were always number one to Sears. It use to be most US manufactured goods were superior to imported goods. That is no longer the case. There are lots of imported goods that are good quality. Once you add in bang for your buck even more are a good choice. Sears is targeting the average home owner. I certainly can't blame them for maximizing their return. It is afterall there responsibility to their share holders.

 

[kythri]

Tough call.

I mean, in certain cases, yeah, I think that rebadged/rebranded GearWrench stuff would be better than what's out there, but in other cases?

The distinctive Craftsman design, the raised panel stuff that gets ragged on all the time? That's a signature thing, and that going away would harm the brand even more than has already been done.

Really, if off-shoring production was deemed an inevitable requirement, then they should have figured out a way to get IDENTICAL dies and tooling to whatever factory so that the new stuff is identical to the old stuff, save for COO.

Instead, lobster-clawed wrenches and similar-looking but off-spec ratchets seem to be the order of the day.

 

[mech-tech]

I'll quote a recent country song, "there's nothing that he can't fix, with wd-40 and a craftsman wrench"..."he's just, made in america"

Craftsman built a name on a trusted reputation for quality, warranty, and american made. With them no longer being american made and quality in question, to me they are just another tool brand from over seas, except in a department store filled with kids that seem lost when you ask them a specific question about a certain tool. At least my local lowes has older guys that know what the tool is used for.

So to answer your question, NO.

 

[Farmall450]

I think it would still cost more than Gearwrench, so no.

 

[raiderhillbilly]

Vote with your dollars. The only way to save American manufacturing is to buy our products.

 

[Exceller8]

I think if the entire Craftsman line were up to Gearwrench quality and made in Taiwan then a lot of people wouldn't have a problem. I for one still like Craftsman tools that are made in the US but I think we sometimes forget that Sears is in the business to make money and that's their top priority and I don't think they care one bit about what we think.

 

[kythri]

I think it would still cost more than Gearwrench, so no.

But, it'd probably be stocked wider/deeper than GearWrench is...

 

[Brownsfan]

There are still some good USA stuff to buy there. The pro screwdrivers, pro prybars, regular prybars(for now) the pro heavy duty hook and pic set. I own all of those mentioned and they have been GREAT tools for the money. That's what Craftsman was to me when I first started buying tools when I started out. Great tools for the money AND USA made. I just hope I don't break anything because I will be replacing it with something else like SK Snap on etc. All my recent tool purchases have been snap on and that gets expensive quick.

 

[NHBandit]

Here's my thoughts on it. Craftsman "The tool America trusts" has betrayed out trust. Their tools have traditionally been American made since our grandfathers time (and I'm a grandfather myself) and now the corporate pencil pushers have given us a big "**** you" in the interest of cutting costs. It makes no difference what the quality is or what their excuse is or how they compare to other brands. Best way I can describe it is, you caught your wife cheating on you. Does it really matter if the guy is good looking or not or what he does for a living ? You've been betrayed and you're pissed. Yeah it really is that simple. That's my take on how those of us who are a little older feel about it. Lots of younger folks simply could care less as long as it's cheap. Personally I think they're making a mistake but Sears is counting on me being wrong... We live in a society now where everything is disposable and those of us who give a **** are dying off. PS.. Snap On knows this and that's why they can sell one wrench for the same price you can buy a complete set of wrenches at Sears. Because there are still enough guys around who do equate value with quality to keep them in business. Old joke that pertains to the age old conflict between Harley riders and ricers... Squid on a Ninja pulls up to an old duffer on a vintage Harley & revs the motor and says "wanna race" ? The guy on the Harley says sure I'll race ya. In 20 years.. on the same bikes...

 

[CWP1616L]

I posted this question in the Gearwrench takes over the world thread. What if Craftsman tools were now China made BUT were basically Gearwrench clones. Would this have made it better? The 60t ratchet replaces the good old raised panel? I am talking the entire hand tool line top to bottom or just the hardline stuff and leave the other stuff the way it is(pliers screwdrivers etc).

"GearWrench takes over the world thread" LOL!!

 

[monomach]

Here's my thoughts on it. Craftsman "The tool America trusts" has betrayed out trust. Their tools have traditionally been American made since our grandfathers time (and I'm a grandfather myself) and now the corporate pencil pushers have given us a big "**** you" in the interest of cutting costs. It makes no difference what the quality is or what their excuse is or how they compare to other brands. Best way I can describe it is, you caught your wife cheating on you. Does it really matter if the guy is good looking or not or what he does for a living ? You've been betrayed and you're pissed. Yeah it really is that simple. That's my take on how those of us who are a little older feel about it. Lots of younger folks simply could care less as long as it's cheap. Personally I think they're making a mistake but Sears is counting on me being wrong... We live in a society now where everything is disposable and those of us who give a **** are dying off. PS.. Snap On knows this and that's why they can sell one wrench for the same price you can buy a complete set of wrenches at Sears. Because there are still enough guys around who do equate value with quality to keep them in business. Old joke that pertains to the age old conflict between Harley riders and ricers... Squid on a Ninja pulls up to an old duffer on a vintage Harley & revs the motor and says "wanna race" ? The guy on the Harley says sure I'll race ya. In 20 years.. on the same bikes...

I'd like to be polite...but seriously, that is really, really stupid. Don't be a drama queen.

"Starbucks screwed up my coffee. It was just like Hitler raped my grandmother in front of me while pouring sugar in my gas tank!"

 

[zkling]

I'd like to be polite...but seriously, that is really, really stupid. Don't be a drama queen.

"Starbucks screwed up my coffee. It was just like Hitler raped my grandmother in front of me while pouring sugar in my gas tank!"

Really, name calling like that? I see and understand his analogy. Yours on the other hand is a bit of a stretch. You are trying to compare an accident to something done deliberately. It is pretty well agreed upon that Craftsman plans to ride out their well built reputation while trying to offer non USA made tools. If there was one well known tool company to the masses, known for quality and being made in the good old USA, it is craftsman. Now that that is gone.

Jake and mech-tech said it best above.

 

[monomach]

Really, name calling like that? I see and understand his analogy. Yours on the other hand is a bit of a stretch. You are trying to compare an accident to something done deliberately. It is pretty well agreed upon that Craftsman plans to ride out their well built reputation while trying to offer non USA made tools. If there was one well known tool company to the masses, known for quality and being made in the good old USA, it is craftsman. Now that that is gone.

It's a stupid analogy. It's a business and always has been. They're not married to any of us and don't owe us anything. If they made wrenches in India out of the same plastic used for takeout silverware and sold them for a million dollars with "Screw America" on the packaging, it'd still be nothing like that stupid analogy.

 

[zkling]

Dude, did your wife recently cheat on your or something? Chill out. He was simply sharing his opinion, that is all. If you don't like it, who cares. For alot of people craftsman is more than a tool brand, it has a sentimental and emotional connection to years and possibly loved ones past. Which NH bandit states in his post.

 

[monomach]

Developing a sentimental or emotional attachment to a business, which by definition is out to take your money, is like falling in love with a stripper.

Now that's a proper analogy.

 

[jakemac]

Developing a sentimental or emotional attachment to a business, which by definition is out to take your money, is like falling in love with a stripper.

Now that's a proper analogy.

I have a cousin that paid for a 4 year college education as a stripper. She met her husband while she was still working the clubs. They now have 2 children, own their house, and are living wonderful lives. It can happen.

What was your point ?

 

[Brownsfan]

Holy **** this took a weird turn. But what did I really expect. I guess I got my answer. The folks here (myself included) would still rather have craftsman made here and good quality. Here's an analogy: it's like your wife cheated on you with the stripper you cheated on her with. Now that's a stupid analogy. Some people need to get off their high horse and stop thinking they are too cool for the room and lighten up a little. This a forum about tools and garages and garage talk. And talk about how easy a tool is able to be warrantied because on this forum they fail at an alarming rate.

 

[senor fozz]

I have a cousin that paid for a 4 year college education as a stripper. She met her husband while she was still working the clubs. They now have 2 children, own their house, and are living wonderful lives. It can happen.

What was your point ?

Pics or it didn't happen, jk. THat is the first married a stripper story that ends up good.

 

[nicksnothereman]

I posted this question in the Gearwrench takes over the world thread. What if Craftsman tools were now China made BUT were basically Gearwrench clones. Would this have made it better? The 60t ratchet replaces the good old raised panel? I am talking the entire hand tool line top to bottom or just the hardline stuff and leave the other stuff the way it is(pliers screwdrivers etc).

I think the only reason people bought craftsman in the first place was because of the return policy (which they subsequently abused endlessly). Offshoring is potentially the result of this bad policy in addition to wanting to keep prices at a level the customer base could afford.

Any of these mail in warranty companies have to compete on cost. No point in buying gearwrench because every time one of their products fails it costs you 3-5 bucks to ship to them; they sell a very comparable quality tool to the retail store brands probably made in the same factories.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Chearwrench or Chraftsman.. sold in the USA .. Thank you, but I have my fill..

 

[CWP1616L]

I always thought Craftsman should be made to Matco specs, but then nobody would buy them because of the price. If they were 1/2 Matco retail, they still wouldn't buy them.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

Ok...so, what you guys are saying is:

Hitler married a stripper who raped a good looking guy's grandma drinking starbucks coffee while cheating on her wife and the two kids were pouring sugar in the gas tank made by Wd-40 and a Craftsman wrench, and to boot they were living in their own house using plastic takeout silverware. Right???

And to think I almost didn't click on this thread!

 

[monomach]

Ok...so, what you guys are saying is:

Hitler married a stripper who raped a good looking guy's grandma drinking starbucks coffee while cheating on her wife and the two kids were pouring sugar in the gas tank made by Wd-40 and a Craftsman wrench, and to boot they were living in their own house using plastic takeout silverware. Right???

And to think I almost didn't click on this thread!

...and they all spoke Chinese.

But that's ok, because at least the gas tank has a no-hassle lifetime warranty.

 

[Brownsfan]

Now you are glad you did. Pretty much summed it up. And to think I started this and it was about tools. I was really curious if Apex made Craftsman tools pretty much Gearwrench clones would it have gone over better. Now I am not sure what the hell is going on now

 

[mech-tech]

Don't feel bad, even if I was drunk, this conversation still wouldn't make sense

 

[firebox40dash5]

I have a cousin that paid for a 4 year college education as a stripper. She met her husband while she was still working the clubs. They now have 2 children, own their house, and are living wonderful lives. It can happen.

What was your point ?

Wait just one minute... you mean to tell me some strippers really ARE in college? Mind, blown.

IMO Craftsman had differentiation, and then decided to instead enter a flooded market. They used to be the affordable, decent quality, US-made brand. Now they're selling the same or worse chinese tools as everyone from HF to Walmart to Lowes, for more money. I personally don't see the long term plan there... sure sounds like a burn-it-down strategy to me.

If offshoring just HAD to be done, I'm sure they could have found a way to send it somewhere like Taiwan and make decent product, just like GW. If they had a selection of product at Gearwrench quality that I could hold in my hand before buying and easily warranty, I'd be pretty interested.

 

[Brownsfan]

Wait just one minute... you mean to tell me some strippers really ARE in college? Mind, blown.

IMO Craftsman had differentiation, and then decided to instead enter a flooded market. They used to be the affordable, decent quality, US-made brand. Now they're selling the same or worse chinese tools as everyone from HF to Walmart to Lowes, for more money. I personally don't see the long term plan there... sure sounds like a burn-it-down strategy to me.

If offshoring just HAD to be done, I'm sure they could have found a way to send it somewhere like Taiwan and make decent product, just like GW. If they had a selection of product at Gearwrench quality that I could hold in my hand before buying and easily warranty, I'd be pretty interested.

Finally someone who understands what I am trying ask. Or at least answers it without the wife banging the stripper paying her way through Wyotec analogy. I thank you sir. Oh and yes my mind was blown by a stripper actually going to school.

 

[rsanter]

Only part of the craftsman problem is the made in china.
The other part is the lack of consistency, lack of good customer service, and lack of knowledgable staff.....
If they had the above issues fixed I believe more people would be more accepting of a GOOD quality of imported craftsman.
There will still be those of us that want made in the USA and would pay a premium for it.
But is has to be a good quality made in the USA

Bob

 

[bobcatdan]

Craftsman is pretty much dead to me and has been long before the chicom switch. I still have a good selection of RP wrenches at home I bought when I was 13. They don't get used much anymore so I don't expect them to break. Besides a 40 year 1/2" RHFT I don't use much, I have one normal RP ratchet I never use so I'm not worried about breaking it and gettinga chicom ratchet in it's place. The only craftsman tools at work are a couple of adjustables and a battery clamp puller and I'm not worried about breaking those. Only way craftsman would excite me is if SK would get the production contract and make SK clones labled craftsman. That said, I'd just buy SK.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I think the only reason people bought craftsman in the first place was because of the return policy (which they subsequently abused endlessly). Offshoring is potentially the result of this bad policy in addition to wanting to keep prices at a level the customer base could afford.

Any of these mail in warranty companies have to compete on cost. No point in buying gearwrench because every time one of their products fails it costs you 3-5 bucks to ship to them; they sell a very comparable quality tool to the retail store brands probably made in the same factories.

Return policy??????? It works great for Rufus and Bubba, who use cheater bars on a 3/8 ratchet and an impact on the chrome sockets, and screwdrivers for prybars.....Cheap tools getting cheaper to keep the Rufus and Bubba group and the Sears bean counters happy....... The cost of this ridiculous lifetime warranty on cheap tools is spread out over everyone's Craftsman tool purchase... This in itself is a turnoff for me....

 

[nickleone]

Funny. Some of my Craftsman tools from the 60s' were made in Japan.
I dont have them any more they were stolen in the 1980s'

Nick

 

[zkling]

Finally someone who understands what I am trying ask. Or at least answers it without the wife banging the stripper paying her way through Wyotec analogy. I thank you sir. Oh and yes my mind was blown by a stripper actually going to school.

I guess I really didn't answer your question either . IDK sometimes I think I am COO biased. I will admit I really enjoy seeing "Made in USA" on my tools and often judge something based on that lettering. I'm starting to come to grips with Taiwan stuff via Gearwrench, Kobalt and other? To me the new china stuff from craftsman just feels different than the older USA stuff. Is there an actual different? I personally think so, prime example is their lobster claw wrenches. If nothing but COO changed, why the need for more material on the open end? The other day I broke a strap wrench, I needed to exchange it. The old ones were Blue and made in England by who, IDK. The new "equivalent" are red, made in China, seem cheaper and I just did not like them, so I chose not to exchange my old one.

Just like USA tools I feel there are varying levels of quality in Taiwan and China tools. Which Gearwrench and BP are near the top, and Craftsman somewhere in the middle. At the end of the day, will I be purchasing any new Craftsman China made hand tools? No. Will I take a china exchange for a USA item that I broke? Not if I can help it. I really wonder how the profit margins changed when Sears moved tool production? Yet the purchase price did not change.

As others have brought up, Craftsman was more than just a tool brand it was a time tested reputation, to me. It is what my grandfather used, what my father used, and primarily what I use. It met a very specific equilibrium between cost, availability and quality. Now the next step up, for USA made tools is not nearly as easy to find for the DIY guy. Brands like SK, Wright, Proto, Williams just to name a few. Just my 2¢ on the matter.

 

[Brownsfan]

I agree on the Craftsman being USA made and a soft spot for them. I was on of the idiots that went out and bought the add on modules when they went on sale and drove to 4 different sears stores to complete the set USA made of course. I have been buying as much USA made craftsman as I can afford. Why? Because that's what I always knew them as. I'm 35 and when I got my first job at 18 that needed tools. I went straight to sears opened up a credit card and went to town. Why because they were quality USA made tools at a good price. Not a cheap price but a good price. I still have many of those tools from 1996 and I don't use them every day anymore but I enjoy when I do. My question was if they were Gearwrench clones would it have softened the blow.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

If they were Gearwrench clones, would it soften the blow??? Not for me.. I have been visiting some of MR. USA Craftsman's estate sales to gather some third line tools to fill some vehicle boxes and a few gaps.. The recent common Craftsman goods weren't all that great; they were merely a good value for the price... The Old Man has been hung, and I would rather see him get a proper burial.. I don't care if that Ghost ship from Asia sails or not...



If Sears wants to sell Gearwrench products, sell them as Gearwrench... Wouldn't be less costly to build them with one name rather than tool up for two names??

 

[sberry]

Really, if off-shoring production was deemed an inevitable requirement, then they should have figured out a way to get IDENTICAL dies and tooling to whatever factory so that the new stuff is identical to the old stuff, save for COO.

They did that, the new ratchet is the same ole pos,,, if they would have changed for the better it would be one thing but even HF can provide a better ratchet at hald the price,,, that has been a lame spot for 30 yrs, how hard can it be to fix?

 

[kythri]

They did that, the new ratchet is the same ole pos,,, if they would have changed for the better it would be one thing but even HF can provide a better ratchet at hald the price,,, that has been a lame spot for 30 yrs, how hard can it be to fix?

It's not the same. It's very similar, and has a virtually identical appearance, but it uses slightly different internals such that the US and Asian repair kits are not compatible.

As far as overall quality of the ratchets go (at least, the US-made ones), well, we'll just have to disagree on that, because, quite frankly, my experience (mirrored by others here) is that there was never anything wrong with them.

There's definitely "better" ratchets out there - more teeth, whatever, but the raised-panel and chromed handle ones with the same guts? They're great ratchets.