What is code requirements for meter placement as relates to panel?

[TheGorf]

Hey all, I'm building a house (eventually, it's been a long road) in the unincorporated area of King County in Washington state. We have a pretty big piece of land so the house with be about 250' from a 40x40 shop. The driveway comes down through the trees, past the shop, and then up to the house. I'm getting ready to request electrical service for the shop and house and my plan is to order 2 x 200A services. One for the house, one of the shop. In fact I might consider a 400A service for the house because everything (water heater, oven, furnace, etc) is electric. But, my question -

Does my meter have to be somewhere close to my panel? I would like to land both of the electrical services on the shop for the meter bases. And then back out and up to the house. Is that legal? I understand the losses associated with the longer run between meter and panel. Since, I'm sure this will be asked, the why is because I want to be able to switch complete power source to the house. Grid tied inverters with battery backup and recovery generators. And the location for this is ideal because we will also eventually be building a sand battery near the shop.

For reference, this is the site map and shows what I am thinking. Red is utility service to shop, blue is back out to house.

 

[u2slow]

Your Utility normally sets the parameters for meter location, and if you're allowed more than 1.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Depending on the POCO, some will not allow more than one meter at a "billing location" unless the second one is for an agricultural building or a business.

 

[loganb]

You can come in at a single meter base and feed both structures. Separating these onto different meters seems costly without significant benefit that's been shared so far

 

[MovingAlong]

Hey all, I'm building a house (eventually, it's been a long road) in the unincorporated area of King County in Washington state. We have a pretty big piece of land so the house with be about 250' from a 40x40 shop. The driveway comes down through the trees, past the shop, and then up to the house. I'm getting ready to request electrical service for the shop and house and my plan is to order 2 x 200A services. One for the house, one of the shop. In fact I might consider a 400A service for the house because everything (water heater, oven, furnace, etc) is electric. But, my question -

Does my meter have to be somewhere close to my panel? I would like to land both of the electrical services on the shop for the meter bases. And then back out and up to the house. Is that legal? I understand the losses associated with the longer run between meter and panel. Since, I'm sure this will be asked, the why is because I want to be able to switch complete power source to the house. Grid tied inverters with battery backup and recovery generators. And the location for this is ideal because we will also eventually be building a sand battery near the shop.

For reference, this is the site map and shows what I am thinking. Red is utility service to shop, blue is back out to house.

Could see 400 amps in a busy shop with three guys running multiple machines at once, but for a single residence? Had a home years ago with two HVAC systems, two ovens, two water heaters, pool pump, hot tub - service was standard, either 150 or 200. No gas.

Talk to your utility company about sizing and layout. This is what they do...

 

[Adaylate]

You could put a 320A pass through on your shop with the meter in it, from there you would feed the house.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Pedestal mounted meter (320 amp) in the front yard as per utility location and run a 200 amp feed to each building.

TIP! Don’t do anything until you meet with the utility company……… And get everything in writing!

 

[Rusted Nut]

Get in contact with Puget Sound Energy, they govern all that stuff. Their website has quite a lot of their construction standards on it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey all, I'm building a house (eventually, it's been a long road) in the unincorporated area of King County in Washington state. We have a pretty big piece of land so the house with be about 250' from a 40x40 shop. The driveway comes down through the trees, past the shop, and then up to the house. I'm getting ready to request electrical service for the shop and house and my plan is to order 2 x 200A services. One for the house, one of the shop. In fact I might consider a 400A service for the house because everything (water heater, oven, furnace, etc) is electric.

Have you done a load calc? most PoCos want those before installing services.

400a is an awful lot of power. Doubtful youll need all that

Also, 2 smaller services are usually gonna be more expensive than one larger one for several reasons

But, my question -

Does my meter have to be somewhere close to my panel? I would like to land both of the electrical services on the shop for the meter bases. And then back out and up to the house. Is that legal?

I would not do this as you would have unfused conductors running on the property.

I understand the losses associated with the longer run between meter and panel. Since, I'm sure this will be asked, the why is because I want to be able to switch complete power source to the house. Grid tied inverters with battery backup and recovery generators. And the location for this is ideal because we will also eventually be building a sand battery near the shop.

you would not be able to have grid tied inverters directly feeding into a meter pan. the inverters need to feed into a main service panel or subpanel.

For reference, this is the site map and shows what I am thinking. Red is utility service to shop, blue is back out to house.

I would do one service with an ATS. But the solar inverters with battery backup complicates things as you dont want batteries feeding into a service with a generator running. you would need to disconnect the inverters when you lose grid power.

 

[TheGorf]

I don't need an ATS because that's not what the inverters want. This is exactly how I have it wired at my current residence. The inverters are inline 100% of the time and are effectively the ATS. In the event of utility failure, they engage in about 10ms and draw off the battery stack which covers my house for about 10 hours, more if we are stingy with power use. As battery capacity draws down, the generator kicks on to provide capacity to the inverters to cover the house draw as well as what is needed to recharge the battery stack and then kicks off.

As for separate services, PSE was actually the one that recommended dual service feeds. My current shop, with the CNC mill and lathe both running simultaneously draws about 100A. It sorta crossed my mind to do this the easy way and just pull three-phase.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

what make/model inverters do you have?

 

[Jimmyrace]

Get in contact with Puget Sound Energy, they govern all that stuff. Their website has quite a lot of their construction standards on it.

they may even have all that in their "green book" like say PG&E does in CA ... And yeah, get a site walk-thru w/ one of their engineer reps like another suggested ... after all, it is their job and also they appreciate the thoughtful pre-planning

 

[Jimmyrace]

they may even have all that in their "green book" like say PG&E does in CA ... And yeah, get a site walk-thru w/ one of their engineer reps like another suggested ... after all, it is their job and also they appreciate the thoughtful pre-planning

Also, consider a double-meter base so that they can be billed separately if ya want, and also better for tracking power usage sans an amp-clamp / digital reader set-up

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Also, consider a double-meter base so that they can be billed separately if ya want, and also better for tracking power usage sans an amp-clamp / digital reader set-up

How would you feed 2 separate services into the same inverter?

 

[Jimmyrace]

How would you feed 2 separate services into the same inverter?

If single meter base - 'combiner panel' houses the separate service feeders, then into meter base. if i read correctly, sounds to me like the desired inverter / gen. set-up is for the calculated service size tied at the point of entry (meter base (multi-base)). Shunt-trip protecting the combiner panel for grid separation during power outage, or as others suggested a simple ats. i read that the shop is to house the battery / gen set-up & then a feeder over to the residence, so would be easy to dedicate some wall-space (in or out) for a sensible layout ... a few variations on this could exist depending if single vs. multi-meter (my $.02)

 

[Jimmyrace]

If single meter base - 'combiner panel' houses the separate service feeders, then into meter base. if i read correctly, sounds to me like the desired inverter / gen. set-up is for the calculated service size tied at the point of entry (meter base (multi-base)). Shunt-trip protecting the combiner panel for grid separation during power outage, or as others suggested a simple ats. i read that the shop is to house the battery / gen set-up & then a feeder over to the residence, so would be easy to dedicate some wall-space (in or out) for a sensible layout ... a few variations on this could exist depending if single vs. multi-meter (my $.02)

oh yeah, the inverters control power-flow so yeah no ats nor shunt-trips needed. more simple and less costly ...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If single meter base - 'combiner panel' houses the separate service feeders, then into meter base. if i read correctly, sounds to me like the desired inverter / gen. set-up is for the calculated service size tied at the point of entry (meter base (multi-base)). Shunt-trip protecting the combiner panel for grid separation during power outage, or as others suggested a simple ats. i read that the shop is to house the battery / gen set-up & then a feeder over to the residence, so would be easy to dedicate some wall-space (in or out) for a sensible layout ... a few variations on this could exist depending if single vs. multi-meter (my $.02)

you said double meter base in #13. why would you feed 2 meters into 1 inverter? that is pointless.

 

[mm08822]

Jimmy......How about a sketch of your idea so there is no writing/interpretation needed.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Could see 400 amps in a busy shop with three guys running multiple machines at once, but for a single residence? Had a home years ago with two HVAC systems, two ovens, two water heaters, pool pump, hot tub - service was standard, either 150 or 200. No gas.

My son's neighbor is a sparky. The distance from the pole at the back of the lot to the house would have required a very tall mast to minimize the wire droop. When he built his 2+ car garage/shop, he wanted "more power" ! He actually a 400A (320A?) drop from the pole (climbed it himself) to the garage. New meter pan which feed 2 200A disconnects, one for the house and one for the shop.

I think he used the "don't ask, don't tell" method of permitting.

 

[Jimmyrace]

you said double meter base in #13. why would you feed 2 meters into 1 inverter? that is pointless

ya dont. the inverter ties into the line-side (ie - grid connected), it is protected by a fusible disconnect. it is the same on many commercial set-ups.

 

[Jimmyrace]

My son's neighbor is a sparky. The distance from the pole at the back of the lot to the house would have required a very tall mast to minimize the wire droop. When he built his 2+ car garage/shop, he wanted "more power" ! He actually a 400A (320A?) drop from the pole (climbed it himself) to the garage. New meter pan which feed 2 200A disconnects, one for the house and one for the shop.

I think he used the "don't ask, don't tell" method of permitting.

This is the way. could always add poles as needed, or go underground and add a pull-station or two (1 every hundred ft.)

 

[PCustoms]

@Jimmyrace what's you're background?

You seem to have just joined, posted in several electrical threads, and are potentially contradicting well regarded electricians that have been posting for several years