What makes commercial electrical "commercial"?

[StaggeringGoat]

As I explained in my other post, I lease a small industrial shop building. The electrical inspector says I cannot pull any permits without an electrician due to the fact that it is "commercial".

Here's the thing. I'm not a business. I don't make money here. There is nothing commercial about what I do. The only thing that is commercial is the zoning. The building I lease is completely stand alone so it's not part of anyone else's business either.

On the other hand there is a house across the street, in the same "commercial" zoning. There is nothing commercial there either, just people living in a house. I'm sure they can get electrical permits.

So what is it, exactly, that makes my building "commercial" in the eyes of the electrical inspector? Why can't I treat my building like a small house? Can I just explain to them that it is in fact NOT commercial? Show them the fact that I have no business liscense, and I cannot buy liability insurance even if I wanted to.....

 

[MrMark]

Well, you are not an owner builder, so you can't pull a permit regardless of whether it is commercially zoned or not. The owner could pull the permit as an owner builder though. Not sure if the commercial zoning would preclude the owner builder from doing electrical work. Where I live I would find a way around that even if I had to take the electrian's test and pay a fee.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

What do you mean "owner builder"? The person who owns it did not build it, but they are not allowed to do electrical work either. Electricians only. No exceptions.

 

[darkk]

If you were going to do the work yourself, why did you even bother the local officials to begin with. Should have just done what you needed and went about your business. I would probably still do that if no one has been snooping around yet.

 

[MrMark]

"Owner builder" is the designation for an owner pulling a permit in his own name to do his own work. It doesn't mean he built the building.

I don't know where you live. You may live in one of the Union dominated locales like Chicago where Union political contributions to democrats make it so that politicians protect the Unions and take away people's rights to do their own work under the joke of safety. There are only a couple of places in the US where owners cannot do their own elect. work. I think Chicago and probably Mass or someplace like that. It may be the commercial zoning that triggers the requirement of a licensed electrician in your location. Not sure.

 

[MrMark]

If you were going to do the work yourself, why did you even bother the local officials to begin with. Should have just done what you needed and went about your business. I would probably still do that is no one has been snooping around yet.

Thumbs up.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

"Owner builder" is the designation for an owner pulling a permit in his own name to do his own work. It doesn't mean he built the building.

This question is about commercial work. I'm pretty sure it is not legal for the owner of a commercial building anywhere in the US to do their own electrical work, it certainly isn't where I am. It is legal to get permits for your own home.

The problem is...what makes it commercial if I'm not running a business?

Forget about the fact that I'm not the owner for a second, even the owner isn't allowed to do electrical in a commercial building.

Edit: on the "stop work" notice I got from the county the note says "Must be an electrical contractor to pull permit and do electrical work". That's not true if I was a homeowner, but it is if I'm a "commercial building" owner.

 

[MrMark]

It has nothing to do with "commercial work". It is commercial zoning so it must be presumed to be commercial, at least for purposes of the requirement of a licensed electrician. .

I really don't get your question if this is your belief: "This question is about commercial work. I'm pretty sure it is not legal for the owner of a commercial building anywhere in the US to do their own electrical work, it certainly isn't where I am."

What is your beef? Surely you don't think that you have to be doing "commercial work" in a commercially zoned building for this requirement you believe exists to kick in. That is presumed with commercial zoning. It doesn't matter what the hell you are doing in there. You could be making paper dolls and it is still considered a commercial building.

 

[darkk]

Sigh...... just go buy some wire and do it already!

 

[StaggeringGoat]

It has nothing to do with "commercial work". It is commercial zoning so it must be presumed to be commercial, at least for purposes of the requirement of a licensed electrician. .

That is the question, but I don't think that's the answer. Like I said there are also houses people live in in this "commercial zoning". The "homeowners" can still get permits to do wiring. The "commercial building" owners can't. Why can't I call my shop a house? Where is the line between house and commercial building? It's not just the zoning...

 

[MrMark]

How can people have houses in commercial zoning? You need to check the zoning a little more carefully. I have a feeling you have a mixed use zoning area. If that is the case, you can have either a business or a residence. You would need to demonstrate that you are not a commercial enterprise and that the residential zoning and everything that goes with that should apply to you. You may have difficulty with that given the nature of the building you rent. It is a garage not a house. If it had sleeping quarters you might be able to make a case.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Technically the zoning is "medium industrial" which allows for many uses, including residences. Some of the houses may have been there before it was zoned that way. You're right it might be hard to convince them my building isn't a "commercial building", but the only commercials in there are on the radio.

Maybe I should build a sleeping area, it would be nice to have anyway. I already have a full bathroom with a shower and a kitchen.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Technically the zoning is "medium industrial" which allows for many uses, including residences.

There are always "exceptions" especially if the building was there first (called a "grandfathering")

Maybe I should build a sleeping area, it would be nice to have anyway. I already have a full bathroom with a shower and a kitchen.

You had better pull permits for this or you could be in for really big fines !

I know someone who was doing this and they had to do some fast talking to convince the inspectors who showed up unannounced (I forget why) and found the living quarters in a small commercial building. He convinced the inspector that it was a mechanics shower/changing/break room because they did lawnmower repair there.

His fines would have been in the $1,000s !!

 

[Zeke]

Technically the zoning is "medium industrial" which allows for many uses, including residences. Some of the houses may have been there before it was zoned that way. You're right it might be hard to convince them my building isn't a "commercial building", but the only commercials in there are on the radio.

Maybe I should build a sleeping area, it would be nice to have anyway. I already have a full bathroom with a shower and a kitchen.

You may not be able to do that either. Zoning is one thing, use permits are another. If you read the code books, buildings are divided as to type of construction and type of use. The codes applicable to each will vary.

You might have 3-phase power to the building or to the property. That alone will separate the use of the building in the eyes of a building dept as houses don't have 3-phase. At least 3P is not provided to residential tracts.

You might ask why is cast iron waste line required in commercial buildings. Or why is the fire protection requirement different. It's the use permit that was given to the property owner when the building was constructed.

If you violate the rules, you only hurt yourself in that insurance will have an out if there is a loss.

One way to improve the electrical wiring for a commercial building is to install all the conduits and pull all the wires yourself with an agreement with a contractor that he/she does the final make up. You're doing the bulk of the work and they get paid for doing their part.

If you run into some contractors that won't play that game, just move on. It doesn't matter if some dirtbag gets the permit, you got a permit and that's all it takes. You know what is correct for the wiring I assume or this whole thread is a waste.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

In a public access area or business the public has demanded uniform safety procedure.

That's my problem, my building has no "public access" or "business". It's just my garage. If I catch anyone in there chances are I'm going to get the .357 out....

You surely expect that any establishment you enter has proper safety features for you in the case of any type of reasonable situation.

No, not really. I notice electrical errors all the time all over the place. Maybe I should be an inspector. It's just something I look at. Commercial places can be horrible too. Just like restaurants, they frequently fail health inspections.

I knew my wiring was technically "wrong", I just didn't care. In my opinion it was safe enough for the location.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

You might have 3-phase power to the building or to the property. That alone will separate the use of the building in the eyes of a building dept as houses don't have 3-phase. At least 3P is not provided to residential tracts.

Yes, I do have 3 phase power (208v) but that alone doesn't make something commercial. Some houses have 3 phase...if I ever build my own house it will be 3 phase. I do agree it adds a commercial "smell".

You might ask why is cast iron waste line required in commercial buildings. Or why is the fire protection requirement different. It's the use permit that was given to the property owner when the building was constructed.

Funny you mention that, I have ABS waste lines and no fire protection.

I think I'm just going to tell the inspector what I have said here and see what they say is needed to make it considered "residential".

 

[mrb]

the owner builder exception to contractor licensing requirements applies only to single family detached dwellings in which the owner lives. if you own a building and its not a house that you live in you cant do work on it without a license.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

The biggest problem I have with the permit is the cost, which is way more than the project cost, or what an electrician would cost. If it was just a small paper work fee there would be no issue at all.

That's what it boils down to as to why the inspector was snooping around my building, somebody wants some money, it's not safety that sent him out there....

 

[StaggeringGoat]

I was just re-reading all the things allowed under my zoning area...

#32 is
"Public and private parking areas and garages"

Technically I'd call my space a "private garage". Shouldn't that be my exception from being commercial right there?

 

[mrb]

no. its not an 'exemption' from being commercial for the purpose of being able to do owner/builder work (where you would still need the permit..) Owner builder is only for a single family detached dwelling in which the owner lives full time. If you own a rental house you cant do owner builder permit. Nor on a condo. You can call your commercial property anything you want but that doesnt change what it is. Doesnt pass the duck standard (walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its still a duck even if you call it a chicken)

Being on the outside of your building, and that it was existing and you didnt put it in this really seems like its your landlords problem. What does he say about it?

 

[MrMark]

the owner builder exception to contractor licensing requirements applies only to single family detached dwellings in which the owner lives. if you own a building and its not a house that you live in you cant do work on it without a license.

That's no exception, that's called America. Get over it.

 

[MrMark]

The biggest problem I have with the permit is the cost, which is way more than the project cost, or what an electrician would cost. If it was just a small paper work fee there would be no issue at all.

That's what it boils down to as to why the inspector was snooping around my building, somebody wants some money, it's not safety that sent him out there....

That's totally true. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. It sounds, if anything, like you have a code enforcement issue, not a building department issue. You weren't actively working on anything were you? Is this area in public view. This guy has no business on your property without a warrant.

 

[MrMark]

I was just re-reading all the things allowed under my zoning area...

#32 is
"Public and private parking areas and garages"

Technically I'd call my space a "private garage". Shouldn't that be my exception from being commercial right there?

You may be able to clear this up just be petitioning for a change of use within your mixed use zoning. Find out the requirements for having a residential use and make the petition. Then the same requirements (or lack thereof) as apply to the houses across the street will apply to you.

 

[mrb]

That's totally true. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. It sounds, if anything, like you have a code enforcement issue, not a building department issue. You weren't actively working on anything were you? Is this area in public view. This guy has no business on your property without a warrant.

not true with commercial property (my statements based on california, could be different elsewhere). both fire dept and building & safety can come onto the property whenever they want.

heck, on new commercial buildings you have to put a knox box (youve probably seen them a small black box with a key lock on it and reflective stripe usually located up high) with a master key to the whole building in it. All the knox boxes within a FD jurisdiction are all keyed alike.

Commercial properties do not have the same rights and protections as a domicile.

 

[mrb]

You may be able to clear this up just be petitioning for a change of use within your mixed use zoning. Find out the requirements for having a residential use and make the petition. Then the same requirements (or lack thereof) as apply to the houses across the street will apply to you.

what commercial property owner in their right mind would consent to a tenant's attempt to get the property downzoned?

 

[MrMark]

not true with commercial property (my statements based on california, could be different elsewhere). both fire dept and building & safety can come onto the property whenever they want.

heck, on new commercial buildings you have to put a knox box (youve probably seen them a small black box with a key lock on it and reflective stripe usually located up high) with a master key to the whole building in it. All the knox boxes within a FD jurisdiction are all keyed alike.

Commercial properties do not have the same rights and protections as a domicile.

I think the whole point here is that this is not a commercial property. It is a private garage within a mixed use area that includes many uses, some residential, some commercial. This isn't a pure commercially zoned area. The use of his building is changeable within this zoning area.

 

[MrMark]

what commercial property owner in their right mind would consent to a tenant's attempt to get the property downzoned?

It's not a matter of downzoning. Residential might be considered upzoning. I know of a nearby mixed use area where residential use would be a higher and better use and increase the property value. This specific property's highest and best calling may be a residential use. We don't know enough facts to say.

 

[mrb]

is it specifically mixed use zoning, or is it zoned commercial with some existing houses that were there before the commercial zoning? Some commercial zones also allow a single family dwelling.

OP, can you post your city/state and the zoning of your property (C-2, MUD-1, etc)? I am interested to take a look at the zoning code and see whats what.

 

[mrb]

It's not a matter of downzoning. Residential might be considered upzoning. I know of a nearby mixed use area where residential use would be a higher and better use and increase the property value. This specific property's highest and best calling may be a residential use. We don't know enough facts to say.

good point, really depends on the city. Wealthy so cal enclave residential or mixed use development with ground floor retail and residential above is going to be worth more than straight commercial whereas many mid or downmarket locales with plenty of residential might see higher value in commercial zoning. Regardless of monetary value, converting commercial to residential would still be considered downzoning as the new designation is more restrictive.

 

[MrMark]

I see your point where the area was zoned commercial but some residential were grandfathered in. Any new use in that area could be commercial. We don't know enough facts about this building and its history to say. He did say that his zoning is called "light industrial" and it allows many uses. I still believe that his answer is in applying to change his use to something that makes sense for the building, the tenant and the owner.

 

[mrb]

I see your point where the area was zoned commercial but some residential were grandfathered in. Any new use in that area could be commercial. We don't know enough facts about this building and its history to say. He did say that his zoning is called "light industrial" and it allows many uses. I still believe that his answer is in applying to change his use to something that makes sense for the building, the tenant and the owner.

I see your point, but he still wouldnt be able to do owner builder work unless he bought the place and lived in it. What he needs to do is review the terms of his lease, and get his landlord to fix the code violations and dangerous wiring. (Especially since its on the outside of the building it better be the landlords responsibility)

 

[MrMark]

Fair enough if that is true. I have never looked at this particular area of requirements with regard to licensing. I have been unaware that an owner cannot work on his own apartments. If that is true what you say, that an owner of apartments much hire a licensed contractor, and cannot do his own work, that is the most violated law in the history of laws.

 

[MrMark]

I just did a quick google on this fascinating issue and found this:

http://www.american-apartment-owner...e-it-illegal-for-landlords-to-do-own-repairs/

I am no fan of telling someone what they can do on their own property. I can see it for true commercial enterprise, but not for small mom and pop rentals.

 

[mrb]

Fair enough if that is true. I have never looked at this particular area of requirements with regard to licensing. I have been unaware that an owner cannot work on his own apartments. If that is true what you say, that an owner of apartments much hire a licensed contractor, and cannot do his own work, that is the most violated law in the history of laws.

there is some grey area for apartments. but if the owner does not live in it then absolutely not. Especially in california these are often violated, as well as the one requiring employer status (workers comp and payroll taxes) for workers you hire who arent licensed contractors. Its amazing what people will sign under penalty of perjury in order to save a few bucks (owner builder permit app)

 

[MrMark]

there is some grey area for apartments. but if the owner does not live in it then absolutely not. Especially in california these are often violated, as well as the one requiring employer status (workers comp and payroll taxes) for workers you hire who arent licensed contractors. Its amazing what people will sign under penalty of perjury in order to save a few bucks (owner builder permit app)

Yeah, that's why I won't hire any illegal help, I've read that when I signed. Yet another reason really not to get the permit to start with.

 

[mrb]

I just did a quick google on this fascinating issue and found this:

http://www.american-apartment-owner...e-it-illegal-for-landlords-to-do-own-repairs/

I am no fan of telling someone what they can do on their own property. I can see it for true commercial enterprise, but not for small mom and pop rentals.

When you are doing work on your own house, and only have yourself and your immediate family to hurt have at it. When doing work on a multiple dwelling unit property you have a responsibility to the tenants and that work should be done by licensed professionals. i dont want some day laborer remodeling the kitchen in the unit next to me and burning the building down.

 

[mrb]

mark, heres an interesting read http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/LADBS_Forms/Permits/owner_builder_permits.pdf

 

[MrMark]

When you are doing work on your own house, and only have yourself and your immediate family to hurt have at it. When doing work on a multiple dwelling unit property you have a responsibility to the tenants and that work should be done by licensed professionals. i dont want some day laborer remodeling the kitchen in the unit next to me and burning the building down.

You know, I would agree with you if I really believed that "licensed professionals" were safer or better somehow. Unfortunately, I have seen many pieces of evidence that belie your implicit assertion. I have seen most homeowners, at least those that I know, try to do a pretty good job, through the function of actually giving a ****, if nothing else. It is amazing how far "giving a ****" can actually take someone. I'm sure there are great "licensed professionals" out there. I just don't think the average guy's chances of finding them are very good.

I could walk through any electrical install I have seen by the professionals I have seen in this area (a guy working for a living) and rip it to shreds. Hell, I could take you around, and you maintain that you are not even an electrician, and we would have a laugh riot looking at the work done by the licensed professionals around here. And there is a lot of new work as a result of the undergrounding project we went through last year.

 

[MrMark]

You realize mrb, that that the licensed professionals use that day laborer wiring the kitchen next door? I see that all the time. I laugh about it with my friends. Some contractor comes by and signs the contract and then all you see is the day laborers. 90 percent of the electrical work done on the undergrounding was done by day laborers. They worked under "the supervision" of a general, not even a C10. Should I feel confident about that work?

 

[mrb]

i know what youre saying about the quality of work from licensed contractors. mostly comes from people taking the lowest bidder. i see plenty of really good work, mostly in commercial installs.

the issue is there must be some standard. you have all these smaller owners, and a few large owners that just dont give a **** and only care about the low bid and hire anyone off the street to do the work. sometimes even done with loans and grants from the city.

then you have larger institutional owners such as CIM who build their projects right and hire reputable contractors who do good work.

alot can be said by the truck that rolls up to the jobsite. beat up truck = no. truck with no company info = no. truck covered 100% in graphics, especially those advertising industrial switchgear, recessed can light installs, cctv, telephones, and solar all on one truck = no. truck with logo, name, tel, url, and lic no on door = ok