What should I do? 10 SEER A/C refuses to die.

[HoosierBuddy]

Help a buddy out guys! Looking for opinions. If my poll misses the mark, feel free to choose option 5.

My home has a 30 year old 10 Seer 4 ton a/c unit coupled with a 93% efficient (15 year old) natural gas furnace. Given I'm retiring in 2 more years, plan to live in this house forever, what should I do?

 

[mike93lx]

Take emotion out of it and do the math. I bet swapping for a new unit doesn't pay back.

If it's not performing well, then comfort is an important factor outside of roi

Also, You almost certainly won't save money with a heat pump if you have gas

 

[WildBill]

I have a 13 Seer central air setup which was the most efficient I could get 20 years ago when I built my house, it also will not die. I recently decided to check and it was almost 50% down on R22, which didn't seem to effect it at all. After experiencing the quiet and incredibly efficient cooling of a mini-split in my shop I plan to change it out soon, probably this fall. About half of the decision is just for noise, my current central air setup is loud and annoying. But I should also save a decent amount of power and it will be really inexpensive after the local utility rebates. I will be keeping gas as a heat source with the new stuff for backup/supplement heat and all cooling.

 

[txvwnut]

I vote option 4. My 30 year old Lennox gave up last year and I went back with a 21 seer with inverter compressor.

 

[pcmeiners]

Also, You almost certainly won't save money with a heat pump if you have gas

Both are close in running costs. If your willing to pay extra, an efficient minisplit can beat natural gas running costs unless your in one of the few states subsidizing natural gas prices. If your buying the cheapest minisplit around, NG will beat that class of mini-split.

These units in 9k and 12k easily beat the nation average natural gas cost.....

https://www.goodlifehvac.ca/images/Fujitsu_LZ_Series.pdf

10 SEER, keep it another few years and you could have replaced the 10 SEER unit with the cost savings of a newer technology minisplit if you plan a DIY install. If your plan would be to have "professionals" install a minisplit, there is no way it could beat natural gas at their hourly rate unless the minisplit lasts 30 years.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Both are close in running costs. If your willing to pay extra, an efficient minisplit can beat natural gas running costs unless your in one of the few states subsidizing natural gas prices. If your buying the cheapest minisplit around, NG will beat that class of mini-split.

These units in 9k and 12k easily beat the nation average natural gas cost.....

https://www.goodlifehvac.ca/images/Fujitsu_LZ_Series.pdf

10 SEER, keep it another few years and you could have replaced the 10 SEER unit with the cost savings of a newer technology minisplit if you plan a DIY install. If your plan would be to have "professionals" install a minisplit, there is not way it could beat natural gas at their hourly rate unless the minisplit lasts 30 years.

How do you cool a 2000 square foot 2-story house with A mini split?

 

[mike93lx]

How do you cool a 2000 square foot 2-story house with A mini split?

Multiple.

Its really not practical if you have ductwork

 

[Bert_]

Run it until it dies.

If you want to save money turn the thermostat up a couple degrees.

 

[man-a-fre]

Keep your old one , the new ones have alot more repair bills and run on higher pressure.

 

[bonneyman]

A/C's are like cars. I'd rather have a 1995 Chevy van rather than a 2025 van. It's easier to repair, still runs, MPG is acceptable (heck, it was good enough for 30 years!) and no car payments. If your unit was dead there could be a debate, but if it still runs I'd keep it as long as possible.
Maybe start saving up for the eventual new one if you R worried.

 

[PoorUB]

I have a 12 SEER Ruud AC I installed around Twenty years ago. It will be a cold day in hell when I rip it out and replace it, unless the compressor or coil dies. As long as it is running and the repairs are inexpensive, I will keep it.

My buddy has a large home, two HVAC systems. A couple years ago the one furnace died. Both units were about 16 years old and he has a couple bucks, so he replaced both. He went with Lennox and he got quotes for if I remember, 16 SEER and 21 SEER. The 21 Seer is for sure, but I forget the lower SEER units. Any way he called me for advice and we scratched our heads over it for about an hour and I told him to put in the lower SEER units for one reason, the 21 SEER units will never pay back the difference or the difference in price. I told him to ask the owner of the HVAC company what he would do and he said the same, so the lower SEER units went in.

One comment I make often is, "You pay either the contractor, or the utility, there is no free lunch."

It seems to me that often the extra expense to install and maintain a higher efficiency unit often doesn't save enough money to pay back the difference.

A 10 SEER unit in good shape is free money, over buying a new unit.

 

[cody1325]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it... Our AC/Electric heat is a 2004 Kenmore unit. Cost something like 20K, and factoring inflation in--the savings aren't going to pay for itself that quickly... But, since duct work won't have to be done, I bet that does save a lot of labor and materials. But still, I'm guessing around 30K to get it replaced--plus the problems with new refrigerants.

30 years, that's nothing... The oil furnace in the basement was from the mid '60s before it croaked due to a fatigued heat exchanger.

 

[brewchief]

If you can live without A/C for a little while when it fails then run it til it dies or develops a leak and needs refrigerant on a regular basis. If you can't live without then take some time and make a replacement plan.

Don't expect ANY new A/C to last 30 years, they are not built to last that long.

Full modulating furnaces and inverter A/Cs add efficiency and comfort but add complexity and repair cost, sometimes the savings that you get ends up spent on repairs. Warranty can help but many times it must be registered and not all contractors do that, make to ask if it needs to be and if so make sure you get proof that it was.

Many times the best spent money on energy efficiency isn't on HVAC equipment but by improving the house with better insulation etc to reduce the load.

 

[micromind]

If you were to tape a stick of dynamite to the side of it, any doubt about replacing it would be removed........lol.

Seriously, even at that age, I would just leave it alone until it fails. The bad part is it will almost certainly fail on the hottest day and you'll likely have to pay a hidden emergency fee to get it replace soon.

Also, if you replace the outdoor unit, you'll need to replace the indoor stuff at the same time.

 

[bonneyman]

If you were to tape a stick of dynamite to the side of it, any doubt about replacing it would be removed........lol.

Seriously, even at that age, I would just leave it alone until it fails. The bad part is it will almost certainly fail on the hottest day and you'll likely have to pay a hidden emergency fee to get it replace soon.

Also, if you replace the outdoor unit, you'll need to replace the indoor stuff at the same time.

Heck, a stick of dynamite might loosen up years of impacted dirt and make it run better!

And yes, you'll have to replace the whole system. In the olden days we could mix and match, but not now.

 

[cvairwerks]

I'd start looking at various upgrade paths now and penciling the numbers. We've got an 12 year old system that is a 14 SEER and it's ready for replacement already. For us, the main reason is the system is undersized for what we really need. It runs about 20 hours a day, almost year round. For normal people, it would be fine, but we have two family members that have some long term health issues and have problems with warmer house temps. I really wanted to step the system up a size when we put it in, but that would have been a major renovation in the dead of summer and caused the house to be without a/c for over a week......wasn't going to happen, nor could we swallow a $20K+ project at that time. New place will get mini splits.

 

[mepstein]

I went option 4 and was happy I did. Lower bills and increased comfort level. Both were very noticeable.

 

[Bert_]

I really enjoy having old tech that just plain works.

I have still been installing a lot of 13 seer air conditioners.

 

[fitter30]

Keep the coils clean, replace the capacitors, inspected the contactor and check electrical connections from outside disconnect to the units panel. Fan motor might have plugs to oil the bearings or pull the four motor bolts to take it apart after the cooling season with a zoom spout oiler.

 

[PoorUB]

I went option 4 and was happy I did. Lower bills and increased comfort level. Both were very noticeable.

The comfort level is one thing, but what if the old system works just fine?

The lower bills? A bit of a joke if you just spent thousands of dollars and save $20 a month on your bill. It will never pay back.

It is like I mentioned earlier, you pay either the utility, or the contractor, there is no free ride.

I understand if the old system is dead or nearly so, but to toss thousands of dollars to replace a working system is not a good financial plan.

 

[The Cobbler]

I'm not convinced the newest greatest appliances are the best economically when you factor in their " not so long life expectancy" to the mix.

 

[cvairwerks]

As the unit ages, you also need to factor in repair costs and down time. Our old unit, original to the house had eaten it's 2nd compressor since we bought the house. New compressor at that time was about 800$ and cost us almost 400$ in shipping and 4 days down time in the dead of summer. Our HVAC guys could have made another model compressor work, but it would have required considerable replumbing of the outside unit to make it work and the labor cost put it at almost twice what the correct one ended up at.

We've dropped almost 4K$ in maintenance on the current unit this year alone, and it will need another couple of grand worth of work before the end of the year. That will put this year's expenses at just over what it cost to install the system in 2011. All the warranty stuff ran out a couple of years ago, so we're on the hook for all costs.

 

[mike93lx]

As the unit ages, you also need to factor in repair costs and down time. Our old unit, original to the house had eaten it's 2nd compressor since we bought the house. New compressor at that time was about 800$ and cost us almost 400$ in shipping and 4 days down time in the dead of summer. Our HVAC guys could have made another model compressor work, but it would have required considerable replumbing of the outside unit to make it work and the labor cost put it at almost twice what the correct one ended up at.

We've dropped almost 4K$ in maintenance on the current unit this year alone, and it will need another couple of grand worth of work before the end of the year. That will put this year's expenses at just over what it cost to install the system in 2011. All the warranty stuff ran out a couple of years ago, so we're on the hook for all costs.

What are you spending on that costs 4k?

 

[cvairwerks]

Had to pull the evap coil once to repair a pinhole, add freon three other times, replace control boards twice, 7 general service calls for other minor issues....It's become so bad, that I read the trouble codes and if I can't reset them, I shoot a pic and send it to the service guys. It's going to need the coil pulled again and a condenser fan replaced before the end of the year.

 

[mike93lx]

Had to pull the evap coil once to repair a pinhole, add freon three other times, replace control boards twice, 7 general service calls for other minor issues....It's become so bad, that I read the trouble codes and if I can't reset them, I shoot a pic and send it to the service guys. It's going to need the coil pulled again and a condenser fan replaced before the end of the year.

Holy ****.

But that's nowhere near normal.

 

[kaymccampbell]

I vote for keep it til it croaks. It scorched my black little soul to pull a perfectly performing 30yo R12 system because I needed to replace n relocate the furnace and ductwork on the rental. At least the tenants got to stimulate the economy.

 

[JohnX14]

I'm in the minority. I'd replace it before it dies during a hot spell. Maybe get this year out of it and do it in the Spring of 2026. It's on borrowed time. If you were not planning on staying forever, I'd have a different opinion. It's like running nearly worn out tires to me. Going to buy new ones soon enough, no sense riding the worn out ones.

 

[danski0224]

I'd replace it before it dies during a hot spell.

This.

Everyone says that living without AC isn't a big deal, and run it until it dies.

In real life, almost no one is willing to live without AC for any length of time beyond a few hours, and then it becomes an emergency.

I've seen it time and time again.

And if you have an old unit crammed into the nether regions of the house, good luck when it needs to be replaced.

Almost everyone will **** it in, and it only has to last a year.

 

[danski0224]

SEER ratings include the ductwork, and if the ductwork is **** (almost always is), then you don't get that SEER rating.

This is the allure of mini splits. No ductwork.

 

[AC-WC]

Plan 5-Start getting quotes for a replacement. Because you're in southern Indiana you may benefit from a 15 SEER OR heat pump.
I replaced my propane/AC about 2-3 yrs ago with quotes all over from $32k-12K. I had geothermal, propane, heat pump, 13-15-20 SEER AC as options. Obviously geo was the highest.
For my area anything more than 13 SEER did not provide any paybacks until over 15 yrs. 13 SEER is now the lowest efficiency you can buy now due to new efficiency rules. I had 2 reputable installers quote close to the same $12k and that's what I went with. I also factored in repair/replacement costs over the next 15 yrs. There was no payback with heat pump as much as I wanted it. I watch propane costs on an almost daily basis which keeps my monthly cost lower than geo, heat pump and 15+SEER. New setup is Daikin 97% propane, 13 SEER 1 1/2 ton AC.

My previous setup was a 10 SEER 2 ton (lowest efficiency at the time), 93% propane (I'm rural so no nat gas available) and lasted almost 25 yrs. I had severe sticker shock because the install cost on this setup was $3k.

 

[driftpin]

Years ago, a central air replacement Bryant AC at a 19.5 SEER in So. FL replaced an R12 system that was turning into a kw-eater, at a 1600 sq. ft. single family residence. My friend owns a HVAC business, and he recommended me to another HVAC master license-holder living closer than he did who installed the Bryant. Between the government 'deal' at the time, and the lower operational costs the new system paid for itself in 3 years. Still working fine today. It's > 10 years old. We added more blown-in insulation in the attic, which helped.

The HVAC business owner who did our installation was a very-interesting guy. He'd been a member of a maintenance crew during his time in the USAF, working at Kadena AF base in Japan in the 1960's. The planes they maintained were SR-71's flying during Vietnam. When he got out, he went to work on an AP license maintaining planes for Pan Am in Miami FL. He studied for his FL HVAC license, and once he got that, he opened his own business. That's when my friend the HVAC master license-holder met him, and worked with him, doing housing tracts/new installations in booming So. FL. Years into that, Hurricane Andrew in 1992 made the guy who switched from airplanes to AC's a rich man, as out-of-state companies sent their work crews to do the HVAC repair/installation and they needed a local qualifier to pull permits. He ended up with 3600 work contracts and a new large golf course home in Weston FL down the street from Dan Marino, and a vacation home in AZ, where he kept his Vincent Black Shadow, a bike he'd acquired during his time in the USAF. He claimed he street-raced it back-then, and he said, "I never lost." I don't have any proof of that, but I never caught him in deception, and my friend the HVAC master license-holder, said, "he's the smartest AC guy I know." All of that bears no resemblance to content posed by the O.P. However, it is an interesting aside for the GJ crowd.

 

[The Cobbler]

I'd replace it before it dies during a hot spell.

at what point do you recommend replacing them?
Tell that to a friend that had a compressor fail a few weeks ago, 3 months over the 10 yr warranty and the company would do ZERO for him. he replaced a 30 yr old unit that was still running fine . the new condenser cost him just a tad over 2k for 10 yrs use, so basically $200 per year . did he save $200 per year on electricity?

 

[PoorUB]

My house AC I installed roughly twenty years ago. As for repairs? Zero, nada, not one dime spent on it. Only wash the outside coil once a year, if I remember.

My garage unit is R22 and a couple years ago it developed a leak. I found the leak and was able to repair it and I charged it with MO-99, or R438A and it is running fine. I don't use it much, maybe a couple weeks a year so not intentions of replacing it anytime soon.

 

[danski0224]

at what point do you recommend replacing them?

The generally accepted assumption for equipment lifespan is 15 years.

I know that everyone is "moving soon" and "doesn't want to put any money into the place", but the sham home inspectors will write up 15+ year old HVAC equipment with all kinds of gloom and doom. The old equipment can extend market time or result in either forced replacement or a credit to facilitate a sale. Also of course, no one here will be subject to such bribery, and will tell the buyers "take it or leave it, *******"./s

The AC will never break in January, so when one "runs it until it breaks", it will break when it is needed, just like the other ones out there. Then you will encounter the other side of Capitalism that people complain about here, because HVAC work is only worth $20.

Tell that to a friend that had a compressor fail a few weeks ago, 3 months over the 10 yr warranty and the company would do ZERO for him.

And what is the expectation? How wide of a grey area do you want?

I CAN tell you that the supply houses don't give a ****, nor do the manufacturers.

If I have a bad evaporator coil that's "under warranty", I don't get ANYTHING* from the manufacturer or wholesaler for R&R of the additional stuff to get access to the coil.

That's all customer pay.

And it has been shown that the pricing of "warranty repairs" is structured to push the sale of new equipment, which can usually be **** into place, er, installed, faster than a repair, resulting in more profit. And more places are requiring revenue generating annual "check ups" of the equipment to maintain "warranty coverage". If you miss a visit, you don't get a warranty. The billboard companies in Chicago operate this way.

*There is a very short 90 day window, with a lengthy review and approval process. Unless it is bad out of the box, most stuff will make it 90 days. After that, nothing.

he replaced a 30 yr old unit that was still running fine . the new condenser cost him just a tad over 2k for 10 yrs use, so basically $200 per year . did he save $200 per year on electricity?

Probably not, if the existing ductwork was **** (and I have yet to see existing residential ductwork that ISN'T ****).

Higher efficiency and variable speed equipment can actually cost SIGNIFICANTLY MORE to operate, if when the ductwork is ****. It is a long time ago at this point, but there was a time when California offered rebates for high efficiency equipment (without duct testing), and energy use actually went up. The rebates later required before and after testing of the ductwork.

This is the allure of mini splits and SEER ratings- no ductwork. The ductwork and the building envelope are the problems. The "**** it in" shops don't know how to make ductwork, and fixing the ductwork or the building after the builder chooses low bid contractors to do the work later is difficult/impossible/expensive/ or "we are moving soon".

There can be significant indoor comfort improvements with high end equipment, if the customer is willing to pay for it. From a strictly accounting perspective, it is doubtful that high end equipment will "pay for itself", just like those "eventually free" high end windows.

 

[gba2331]

We've dropped almost 4K$ in maintenance on the current unit this year alone, and it will need another couple of grand worth of work before the end of the year. That will put this year's expenses at just over what it cost to install the system in 2011. All the warranty stuff ran out a couple of years ago, so we're on the hook for all costs.

It sounds like your system actually has failed but you keep reviving the patient. Maybe it’s time for a DNR order?

 

[cvairwerks]

It sounds like your system actually has failed but you keep reviving the patient. Maybe it’s time for a DNR order?

Got $30K you'll loan me at 0% for 30 years or til I'm dead? With my oldest's disability, we've got to get an ADA compliant place built soon. Already have to redo one bathroom, all the floors and overhaul the kitchen when we move out. This house was a compromise when we bought it and we never intended to stay in it this long. When he became disabled, the family finances got severely skewed from where they had been. A few curve balls in life makes for a bit more interest!

 

[The Cobbler]

The generally accepted assumption for equipment lifespan is 15 years.

in todays world. I won't reply to the rest of your post.

 

[PoorUB]

As the unit ages, you also need to factor in repair costs and down time. Our old unit, original to the house had eaten it's 2nd compressor since we bought the house. New compressor at that time was about 800$ and cost us almost 400$ in shipping and 4 days down time in the dead of summer. Our HVAC guys could have made another model compressor work, but it would have required considerable replumbing of the outside unit to make it work and the labor cost put it at almost twice what the correct one ended up at.

We've dropped almost 4K$ in maintenance on the current unit this year alone, and it will need another couple of grand worth of work before the end of the year. That will put this year's expenses at just over what it cost to install the system in 2011. All the warranty stuff ran out a couple of years ago, so we're on the hook for all costs.

$4k and another $2K expected??? In one year??

My furnace and AC haven't cost me $1,000 in repairs in 20 years! Granted I fix it myself, but I have replaced the inducer motor on the furnace twice, maybe $600 for the parts and that is all I can think of. If I had paid someone it might be $1,500 total.

 

[danski0224]

in todays world.

I've been hearing about the "15 year old HVAC equipment writeup" by "home inspectors" for almost 30 years at this point.

 

[mike93lx]

The generally accepted assumption for equipment lifespan is 15 years.

I know that everyone is "moving soon" and "doesn't want to put any money into the place", but the sham home inspectors will write up 15+ year old HVAC equipment with all kinds of gloom and doom. The old equipment can extend market time or result in either forced replacement or a credit to facilitate a sale. Also of course, no one here will be subject to such bribery, and will tell the buyers "take it or leave it, *******"./s

The AC will never break in January, so when one "runs it until it breaks", it will break when it is needed, just like the other ones out there. Then you will encounter the other side of Capitalism that people complain about here, because HVAC work is only worth $20.

And what is the expectation? How wide of a grey area do you want?

I CAN tell you that the supply houses don't give a ****, nor do the manufacturers.

If I have a bad evaporator coil that's "under warranty", I don't get ANYTHING* from the manufacturer or wholesaler for R&R of the additional stuff to get access to the coil.

That's all customer pay.

And it has been shown that the pricing of "warranty repairs" is structured to push the sale of new equipment, which can usually be **** into place, er, installed, faster than a repair, resulting in more profit. And more places are requiring revenue generating annual "check ups" of the equipment to maintain "warranty coverage". If you miss a visit, you don't get a warranty. The billboard companies in Chicago operate this way.

*There is a very short 90 day window, with a lengthy review and approval process. Unless it is bad out of the box, most stuff will make it 90 days. After that, nothing.

Probably not, if the existing ductwork was **** (and I have yet to see existing residential ductwork that ISN'T ****).

Higher efficiency and variable speed equipment can actually cost SIGNIFICANTLY MORE to operate, if when the ductwork is ****. It is a long time ago at this point, but there was a time when California offered rebates for high efficiency equipment (without duct testing), and energy use actually went up. The rebates later required before and after testing of the ductwork.

This is the allure of mini splits and SEER ratings- no ductwork. The ductwork and the building envelope are the problems. The "**** it in" shops don't know how to make ductwork, and fixing the ductwork or the building after the builder chooses low bid contractors to do the work later is difficult/impossible/expensive/ or "we are moving soon".

There can be significant indoor comfort improvements with high end equipment, if the customer is willing to pay for it. From a strictly accounting perspective, it is doubtful that high end equipment will "pay for itself", just like those "eventually free" high end windows.

HVAC system age is a factor in homeowners insurance pricing, as well.