What should I do? Bad concrete pad pour

[markvfr]

Hi all, I posted this in an older thread, but was recommended I start a new thread so here is my story.

Hi all, I'm having a similar problem with my newly poured 24x33 pad and don't want to start another thread, so I'll tag onto this one.

Here is my situation. The guys formed the pad last week but then it rained for a solid five days and it finally cleared up on friday. So, the crew shows up and at 7am the pour starts. I left for work but as I was leaving work, I heard some cursing and they took some of my scrap lumber to re-enforce the forms as apparently they weren't holding the concrete due to the rain induced soft ground.

I got home on friday and the pour looked decent but noticed it wasn't very flat or sloped towards the backlane like it should. So, I waited 'til today to do the water test and see where the low areas are and where the true slope is. Well, there is a nice half inch two foot wide trench running the full width of the garage with two prominent low points that pooled all the water. Virtually no water got to the apron as I hosed it from the back of the garage. I find this unacceptable for a newly poured garage that I will pay over $7000 for. On top of that, the forms didn't hold and the concrete anyway and it bowed out terribly in the most visible spot.

Whats more frustrating is, I put down $1000 worth of hard insulation and ran infloor heating lines in the pad so the option of drilling into the current pad and pouring overtop really isn't an option.

So, since I haven't paid for the job yet, should I request a tear out and re-pour? Will they rip out the lines and insulation as well? I guess I'm looking for confirmation of my situation and options and to make sure I'm not over reacting.

Thanks in advance.

Mark

 

[Michal]

That doesn't sound like fun . I would have them re do it and pay for the insulation and piping they will mess up.

 

[darkk]

I would think the contractor/crew that did the setup and pour would be responsible. If they saw they were going to have problems, they should have waited. Now you have a VERY expensive/messy repair on your hands. Trust me, someone is going to very very upset besides yourself...good luck with the repair/replacement.

 

[930dreamer]

Don't pay, the finished product wasn't built the way you instructed it to be. If you pay no recourse.

 

[Michal]

Don't pay, the finished product wasn't built the way you instructed it to be. If you pay no recourse.

Yeah, Don't pay for sure! You got lucky with not paying before the service was done.

Good Luck,
Michal

 

[markvfr]

Thanks for the input guys.

So, I talked to him this morning. Its a family business so the owner was actually doing the pouring etc. When I asked him what we're gonna do about this, he said "About what?" I said that if he thinks this is a good pour, we got a big problem. He seemed quite troubled once I started explaining to him what he should do and requested a re-pour. Then asked him who's going to pay for the insulation and infloor piping and he said "No way I'm paying for that!" So, we'll see what he says when he goes back to the site but here are my options with #1 would be ideal:

1. Tear out, his cost of replacing the insulation and running piping, re-pour.
2. Tear out, he pays for the insulation and piping and I run it again, re-pour. All I'm out is my labour and time running the piping.
3. Tear out and re-pour on his cost and I pay for the infloor stuff. Blah to that, I'd be out another $1500.
4. Grind down the pad to fix the low spots?
5. Leave it as is and demand a 1/2 price discount on the pad and live with it? Don't like the idea of that very much.

My neighbour is a lawyer and talking to him over the fence yesterday, he said he could write a not so nice legal letter to the company if they are difficult. I hate the idea of going the lawyer way since there is too much litigation in this world as it is, but I might have no choice.

Thanks for listening.

Mark

 

[Michal]

I would only consider 1,2, and 3. Leave it as is you will always have puddles, you shouldn't have to settle for grinding down when paying for a service you didn't receive. While the 1500 ***** it's better than having a messed up pad.

I would have the lawyer draft up a not so mean letter and send it to him and hope you don't have to go to court.

 

[TRC51]

I don't know what to do either, but I will say this: It doesn't sound like you are going to... but whatever you do, don't "live with it". It's pretty much forever, and you will think about it every time you look or go into your garage. Just get it right however you have to... and make sure the maximum possible amount is paid by the company. Don't give up or comprimise in any way, cause you will likely regret it later. Best of luck to you.

 

[Mike83]

Even if you didn't pay the contractor anything yet, he may just split to avoid having to re-do anything, or worse yet put a lien on the garage/house.

This is why if you want something done right you need to do it yourself or closely watch whoever is doing the work. I understand you may not have had this option, but I would have taken the day off and supervised the pour.

 

[bobadame]

If you set the forms I'd say you don't have a case concerning the blow out. Certainly after 5 straight days of rain someone should have inspected the forms the evening before the pour. About the flatness, did the contractor quote the job based on your expectation of less than 1/2 " variation?

 

[markvfr]

If you set the forms I'd say you don't have a case concerning the blow out. Certainly after 5 straight days of rain someone should have inspected the forms the evening before the pour. About the flatness, did the contractor quote the job based on your expectation of less than 1/2 " variation?

I didn't set the forms, they did. I also agree they should have inspected the forms before the pour.
As to the flatness, he did not specify any variation when quoted, only that the pad is going to have a 1.5-2% slope towards the alley. That is not the case as there is a reverse slope from the entrance causing the pooling in the center of the garage.

I'll take some pictures tonight and will post them on here for you guys to see.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[bobadame]

I went back and re-read your original post. I missed that part, oops. Looks to me like you do have a case. I'm wondering about the 1.5-2% slope. With a monolithic pour such as yours there are no raised areas for the walls so that percentage works out to 4.3" to 5.76" of slope in 24'. That doesn't sound right.

 

[Ch3No2]

1.5% slope in 24' is 4 1/2" slope and 2% is 6"

 

[930dreamer]

Would you want the same company doing the job again? I wouldn't

 

[Scramblur]

I say, have him rent two diamond grinders and fix the floor to a polished finish. Polished concrete floor is beautiful, and you get rid of the low spots, everybody is happy and it cost him less than the alternative.

 

[i4ni]

I agree with Scramblur. Sounds like a logical solution that would work for me if I were the contractor and if fall is atainable.Your floor would look bitchen and it would get done alot quicker than if it went to litigation. Good luck.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

BOHICA.

Sorry but you gotta problem. The guy isn't going to do anything, I'll bet, and while he may split and not bother with a lien, he won't pay for the concrete either, so THEY will place a lien on your place for the cost of the concrete the contractor didn't pay for.

The pour should not have happened, and should have been called off long before the rain quit.

Charles

 

[markvfr]

Update:

Got a call from him late afternoon today. I'm not going to go into detail of his lip service, but it was quite entertaining. He was trying to put a guilt trip on me saying that all garage pads will have small ups and downs and that no matter what he does, I won't be happy. WTF? Anyway, his first "fix" was to do a levelling service with a top coat. Before he got too far with the explanation, I told him no way he is doing that. So, then he mentioned grinding. After reading your suggestion guys about renting diamond grinders, it kind of made sense. So, I told him that I would entertain this fix and for him to get his grinding contact to give me a call. I also sent out a quote request to my choice of grinding outfit that I trust and see what they say as well. The only drawback to the grind is that it will show off the rock in the concrete and might possibly require a deeper grind then a 1/4 to 1/2 inch and then my pad load capability and infloor heating might be compromised. I'm not too worried about the rock showing as I will be putting epoxy finish after the garage is up. I guess I won't know 'til the grinders show up with their opinion.

Any other drawbacks to the grinding you guys might know?

I'll keep you in the loop what the final outcome is.

Thanks again for your suggestions, it helped a lot.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Pour self levelling compound over the lot and tile the whole area.

 

[Scramblur]

There are really two options..
1. Grind and epoxy. Perfectly fine option and what many, including me did to prep my floor.
2. Grind through the aggregate with progressively finer grits until you get into the 1800 grit range and the floor is polished. During the polishing process they apply a hardener that soaks into the concrete and really makes it impervious to liquids and most stains. Welding is hard on an epoxied floor, not on a polished floor. In my opinion, this is a superior floor to an epoxied floor in look and maintenance. The cost here in Utah is about $4 per foot to have a polished floor. I would have gone this route in my shop if the cost wasn't so high. I'm getting ready to start my refurb on my four car garage and am thinking about it again...

 

[markvfr]

Ok, an update for you guys. The guy has been a PITA to deal with, not answering calls and getting defensive right off the bat when I started to throw things around like replacing the pad or getting a lawyer etc. I was seriously choked and pissed off that my dream garage is starting like this.

So, I finally talked to him again about an hour ago and in a more civilized fasion, but once again he said the tearing out and re-pouring is not an option for him. So, I guess I was in a good mood when I talked to him and said that if thats the case we have to settle on a hell of a deal for me for this botched job. His estimate before the job started was $7200. I'm thinking of offering him $2000.
Oh yeah, since the last update I gave you, one more thing got effed up. The whole pad is now spalling and pitting. Two weeks after the pour!

So, do I:

1. Rent/buy a grinder and grind the whole floor to remove the spalling, fill in the low spots with the silcrete or similar product and then Epoxy on top? Would that hold?
2. On top of this, he didn't put any expansion cuts in the concrete as he was afraid to hit the pex tubes in the infloor heating. Should I brave the cuts, and would a half inch deep cut be enough?
3. If you were in my shoes, how much would you offer the guy?

Eff me. I don't want to go the lawyer way, and hate dealing with ****** contractors. This is supposed to be my dream garage. Any more words of encouragment or wisdom?

 

[Scramblur]

Sorry you are going through this. I've had it happen to me and it's distracting. Here is what I would do.

1. Calculate the cost of materials.
2. Offer him that as payment for the work, "paid in full".
3. Decide if the leveling of the floor is really an issue. Will you have water on the floor for some reason? I had my floor poured level on purpose and there are inherent low spots. I don't have any plans to hose it out and no risk of water entering (except if there is a plumbing leak).
4. The grid for the radiant heating should be a couple inches below the top of the floor, but I'm not sure what you have. Cut the joints as deep as you dare, but consider cutting fewer to mitigate your risk.
5. A good low cost, high quality solution is to rent a 3 head diamond grinder and work through the spalling until you have a nice stable surface, then epoxy with something of high quality.
6. Alternatively, grind through to a polish, but it will cost you a little more.

I think you can get a good floor that will last a lifetime, without ripping it out, and at a lower cost than your original estimate.

 

[51rider]

It's your dream garage, your words- that means it has to be right. You will get pissed every time you see the imperfections if you don't and that will take away from the enjoyment every time.

1. An offer of materials is more than reasonable.
I would have two estimates from other reputable flooring companies to correct his mistake. Have them to hand as rerference so you can use them in the ensuing conversation.
2. I would talk to Fred at AlphaGarage or one of the other epoxy floor specialists on this forum to see what you need to do to prepare the floor for epoxy.
3. In regards to saw cuts, I would again contact the pro's, explain the situation & seek their opinion and cost. This again can be used as a deduction tool with your original contractor as he hasn't fulfilled this part of the job either.

You need to get the situation with the original contractor out of the way and him off site. Once this is done, I belive you will be able to focus on the issues, devise a solution using any, some or none of the suggestions /advice /thoughts given. From there you get a plan of action & can start moving on with building your dream garage.
As said earlier, its your dream, your hard earned money and it needs to be right.

 

[1984GMC]

I say get a lawyer, This is a prime case for it, its not like you did something to yourself and are trying to go after the people that made something that you hurt your self with. This is a correct type of situation to sue.

 

[Scramblur]

Getting a lawyer is an option, but won't net any punitive damages. You won't lose anything by making an offer to settle before getting a lawyer. A likely judgement would be something like you paying $7200 to have a finished floor, to this guy or another. I think you might make out better with a creative settlement.

When this happened to me, (driveway in a new home in Oklahoma) the legal advice I got was, he'll be forced to employ a commercially feasible solution. His solution, top coat it. Not a good option for me. I offered, he pay for the bobcat rental, dumpsters and new concrete pour (material and labor on the pour). He did that and I provided the labor for the demolition and removal. While doing it, I got his guys to form and pour channels across the driveway. After curing, I went back and inlayed brick pavers. In the end, my friends and I had some labor, no money and a better "upgraded" product than I started with.

 

[carpenter383]

I didn't put any saw cuts in my garage floor, yes it cracked where it wanted to, but they are hairline cracks with no seperation.
If you used wire mesh or rebar in the concrete then it won't seperate when it cracks.
Personally I'd rather roll a creeper or floor jack over a hairline crack than a saw cut.

 

[irisservice]

See the problem is if you let him or someone else grind it and something else is wrong, well he kinda washes his hands of this job..How much would he have to grind?
Its your dream garage it should be correct...who installed radiant heat?
I would say a remove and replace would be my only option.
Photo?

 

[GarageEnvy]

I can't tell you what to do because the world is full of different personalities. I'm the type of person who notices all the little things around my house like nicks, scrapes and dings. Nobody else would see these things but they drive me crazy. For me, a remedy that was financial rather than fixing the quality of the product would not alleviate the angst over the botched job. It would haunt me. If you're that type of person then forget getting a deal on the job and focus on getting it corrected. But, if you can live with it (and it sounds like you're already struggling with this) then get as much of a deal for all your trouble and move on. Litigation will take a long time and there is no guarantee that you will prevail. I own a small business and we eat our mistakes. If the whole thing has to be re-done because he screwed it up that should be his problem and not yours. What would you think if BP was allowed to just fix their pipe but not compensate any businesses for losses?

 

[Scramblur]

How would grinding through the spalling be settling for less? The thing he has to decide is, does he want pitch in the floor or not. Solid, epoxied floor isn't sub standard.

 

[Doc]

Just a thought here..... I a no concrete guy here but just your average enthisast but can you add another 4" of concrete on top of what you have and consider that as a base instead of dirt?

not sure what your pipes/tubing woiuld do with such thick concrete.

next thought, If there is a low spot in the middle, would it really matter too bad since it will be covered with a roof? I would be more apt to keep a good surface an have a small dip then to see someone take a grinder and make thin areas.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Excellent suggestion Scramblr. I will bet you that in 5 years this forum will be filled with polishing pictures vs. RaceDeck and Epoxy.

We sell densifier and stainguard for this process if anyone is interested.
www.legacyindustrial.net

-Scotty

 

[rodnok1]

If it rained for that long, how was the base material?? If it was soaking wet they shouldn't have poured and any bowing isn't going to make your life any easier. Grinding down may be your best option at HIS cost not yours, but in reality it should be taken up and re-poured at his cost.

 

[willymakeit]

Do what Scramblur is talking about. We did this to correct some divots in a concrete floor from block masons. End product looked good . The big box stores are doing this also.

 

[markvfr]

Hey guys,

Thanks a bunch for all the opinions and encouragement. Here is the update.

I ended up getting four concrete repair companies to come by, check out the pad and give me a quote on fixing the low spots and spalling. All companies said that its really not that bad and its a relatively easy fix. Now, for the quotes... I got quotes for $4300 to $5600 to fix!!! So, I approached the concrete contractor and told him the cost of the fix and we both agreed on a settlement. He ended up losing $300 on the job as I paid less then half of my original quote, so the settlement didn't cover his materials. Not my problem and he was man enough to finally admit that they screwed up.

So, in the end, I'm going to get:

1. Low spots fixed
2. Professionally grinded/ground (sp?)
3. In those $4300/$5600 quotes, that included a polyaspartic coating. So, I'm either going to get them to do it, or save a few grand and do the Wolverine floor myself.

I'm happy with the turn of events and I'm glad it didn't go to litigation. I think the floor is going to turn out fine, and thats the most important issue.

Here is a few pictures not of the concrete but at the progress of the garage. I roofed the monster on the weekend, now just awaiting the overhead doors and will be doing facia, soffit and siding this week. Getting exciting.

Ok, I'm having trouble posting a picasa image. Any tips? Folder is public and I'm pasting the "image link" url not the page url.

Figured it out in spite of the excellent and constructive comment by Justanoldguy.

 

[Justanoldguy]

use photobucket

 

[henrysgarage]

Glad you finally got a resolve and can get the garage done. I use picturetrail. Most free site limit picture space, so I delete pictures from it that no longer need to be there.

 

[wuboring]

Glad to see someone else is having trouble

I had the floor poured in my 54x83 shop.. 2" Foamular under the whole thing, 3/4" pex on 12" centers, 1/2" rebar on 12" centers, 35' long cast iron trench drain with 2'x2' pit with sediment baskets, 6" min. concrete thickness 12" thick in overhead door entry ways... the material list for this was close to 25k

the contractor screwed the poor up bad, didnt finish it correctly, the 4,000$ trench drain floated out on them so the grade is messed up on it, and they tried cutting some of the styrofoam to make it go back down, but the foam got into the concrete and messed up the finish more.

there are spots along the wall of my building (Morton Building was erected before pour) that you can put your hand in where they didnt push the concrete up against the wall enough

The contractor is trying to bull me into paying him for the job saying he will fix it but just needs the money blah blah. It almost turned into a physical altercation at the last meeting we had .. hopefully better days are on the horizon for it

 

[irisservice]

Glad to see someone else is having trouble

Hold your cool...If your holding the money you have the upper hand .....

 

[slice]

I hope you got a lien release for the materials used, as someone else said they put a lien on your place cause he did not pay his bills.. and he moves on and opens a new company all over again..

 

[truckman5000]

im glad you got that sorted out with the floor. Could have been a nightmare.
Just try to make the pex throught the floor look good, im an hvac contractor/ plumber so i look at that stuff.
I would have, just to let you know. Run the pex to a (we use unistrut(u joint metal with brackets)to make a secure conection with 90 bends below grade. Offset the pipes 11/2 an inch appart, that will make tieing into the header very nice and clean.
But i must say you did a very good job, ive scene worse jobs done by licenced guys....good luck, dont meen to critisize, just letting you know and if you have any ? fel free to pm me ect. mike