What should upgraded service cost?

[Dick in Wisconsin]

We live in a 24 year old house in a semi-rural area. Most of the houses around us sit on 1 to 5 acres, some on 40 acres. All of us have natural gas. House is 1800sf with central air, two car garage, NG furnace, and 200 amp electrical service. Built a 1000sf garage/race shop last year.

The current service runs from the pole, past the new garage/shop (running under a corner of the new building's slab by about 15"), and to the existing meter on the house.

Because the current service runs under a tiny comer of the new garage/shop, Electrician planned on upgrading service to 320amps, putting the meter on the shop (its much closer to the pole and service than the house), running the new service from the pole to new meter on the new garage/shop (about 55' total from the pole), have a new main panel in the new garage/shop, and then run a big circuit to the house through conduct and turn the panel in the house into a sub-panel. I hope I have the terminology correct.

While the GC and his carpenters were working on the building last year to guys from POCO stopped by looked "everything over". The GC said he asked the POCO guys if they were going to put the new service in, they said, "no, just looking everything over to make sure we're prepared to do what we need to do". That was in like August.

We were gone in January, no rush. Finally in early March I notice a POCO car in the driveway. The "designer" was out to "design" the new service. The result of that was an invoice for $3,800. Two new poles, new transformer (apparently four houses are on our service), new main service wire (about 200' long). Keep in mind I'm going from 200amp to 320amp service. I thought this was outrageous. Had I known this was going to be the cost of electric service for the new garage/shop I would have either moved the building 15" or when the "Call Before You Dig" guy was here moved his flags 15" or walked next to him and shoulder him over a bit and gotten by with the existing 200amp service.

GC met with POCO sales person and said $3,800 was out of the question and there had to be a better deal. So the "designer" came back again, looked everything over, and came up with plan "B". I'm still getting 320amp service, 55' of new service, POCO putting in a new main service wire, two new guy wires on the pole (main service wire is "heavier"), and some tree trimming. Using the existing transformer and existing poles. Cost is $1,300 and there is a warning that the lights might flicker in the house when a hair dryer is plugged in.

So ... how does this compare to what the experience has been out there for getting new service? I'm a little "miffed" at having to pay to upgrade the POCO's infrastructure. Is that par for the course? I've never had a new service run in.

 

[Lassen Forge]

"Standard" residential service is 200 amps, and everything is balanced to that. Older neighborhoods are worse - 100 or 150 amp service. To go to 320 Amps they need to branch off the line, put a new transformer in for your application (because you're drawing more off the common can) and that usually goes with a new pole and lines. $3800 isn't bad - you're essentially going from Residential to Commercial service.

There's another angle to that - some controllers can be damaged by brownouts (not just shop controllers, but fridges, heaters, AC units, computers, washer/dryers, etc...). When you pull a hard load from an undersized supply (the transformer) you're essentially creating a brownout situation from that can. Those circuit boards won't take that too much before they cry uncle... or they break and all the smoke leaks out.

Yeah, I know, $3800 is a bitter pill to swallow (I'm looking at doing the same thing at my place, and mine will be more than 2x that) but if I want to run the compressor, power the lathe, and dry the laundry with the microwave going, something is going to give.

My only regret - we don't have 3���Ø power within a few miles of the place, so if I wanted to do *that*, I'd be well into 5 digits+. And how I would love to go 3Ø...

 

[Stuart in MN]

I regularly deal with a half dozen different electric utilities in my area for service installs on various construction projects. There's really no way to define an 'average' price - it entirely depends on the details of your particular install, as well as which electric utility serves your area. They each have their own guidelines for what they charge for and what they don't; if they have to replace or add poles or transformers, how far they have to run their wires, what kind of revenue they can expect to get from the service, and a bunch of other things.

 

[troyks]

To me the $3,800 deal doesn't sound out of line, but the $1,300 sounds like a plan to just get you the upgraded service by taking shortcuts. There's no problem using existing poles and adding guy wires if they're in good shape, but not upgrading the transformer might be an issue if it's already at it's limit when each home it serves is at peak load. POCO polices vary widely, it's not uncommon to make the user pay for part of their infrastructure upgrades when there is already a working system in place. I would inquire with the POCO about what size the transformer is, and whether it has any capacity left to handle the additional juice, if it's at capacity work on a middle ground including an upgrade to that and using your existing poles, then you'd probably be in the $2,500 range and not have to worry about knocking you and your neighbors power out if the existing transformer clocks out.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

This is all good information for me. Thanks!

I wish I knew what the peak amp draw from just our house has been since we've been here. I suspect that the POCO doesn't know that. I wish I knew over the ten years whether our peak amp draw was 90amps or 190amps. That would help me decide.

From what the POCO told us and what we can figure out and confirm, there are a total of four customers (including us) on the transformer in question. On the wire from the transformer to the pole that provides us with service, there is just one other customer. So it sounds like the transformer is the limiting factor.

 

[pentavolvo]

What all do you plan on running in oh our garage, sounds to me like 200 amp service is adequate

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

This is all good information for me. Thanks!

I wish I knew what the peak amp draw from just our house has been since we've been here. I suspect that the POCO doesn't know that. I wish I knew over the ten years whether our peak amp draw was 90amps or 190amps. That would help me decide.

From what the POCO told us and what we can figure out and confirm, there are a total of four customers (including us) on the transformer in question. On the wire from the transformer to the pole that provides us with service, there is just one other customer. So it sounds like the transformer is the limiting factor.

Buy a clamp on amp meter and fire up the stuff you use in the house to find out.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I think that 200amp should be enough too, but the electrician did some calculations and said we more than 200amps to get the job done.

Compressor, lights, hand tools, maybe a two post lift some day, maybe a lathe at some point, NG fired boiler and pumps for in-floor heat, and 50amp hookup for the motorhome.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Buy a clamp on amp meter and fire up the stuff you use in the house to find out.

I have a Klein CL1000 with a clamp. But to get an accurate reading don't have to be able to separate the wires (hot from neutral)?

 

[sands35]

Why do you need 320?

I know houses are at 200, but that is only drawn if *every* high load device starts up at the same time. It's a pretty conservative number. 100 amps is more than enough for the typical garage, and a lot of guys just run a sub-panel off a 200 amp house to a 60 amp garage.

I guess if you have a big welder you may want 100 in the garage.

 

[sands35]

I think that 200amp should be enough too, but the electrician did some calculations and said we more than 200amps to get the job done.

Compressor, lights, hand tools, maybe a two post lift some day, maybe a lathe at some point, NG fired boiler and pumps for in-floor heat, and 50amp hookup for the motorhome.

In a hobby garage, how many devices are you going to run at one time? Heater/AC, compressor and a tool? Welder?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Why do you need 320?

I know code for houses is 200, but that is only drawn if *every* high load device starts up at the same time. 100 amps is more than enough for the typical garage, and a lot of guys just run a sub-panel off a 200 amp house to a 60 amp garage.

If it was "just" the garage, I think I could get by with a 60amp sub-panel and a total of 200amps. But I need a 50amp circuit for the motorhome which I think is what is driving much of "demand". The 320amps is more than enough.

 

[DC73]

The $3800 price sounds like they are trying to get you to pay for the full cost of a service upgrade that will also benefit them and your neighbors. The $1300 price sounds much more reasonable, however, that still could be higher than it needs to be.

You need to do a bit of research. Get on the PoCo website (or call them and ask). You are looking for their "Terms of Service", sometimes called "General Conditions For Service" and/or they may have a separate rate sheet. If they are a regulated electric utility (and most are), they are required to have all of these types of policies in writing and you should be able to find out what is required of you for upgrading the service. As a general rule (but it varies widely by state and utility), a PoCo will provide at their cost, a 200 A overhead service of a set length. Anything over 200 A, over the set length, of if underground instead of overhead is paid for by the customer.

The bottom line for a regulated utility is that a certain level of service provided by them is included in the "base rates" approved the regulatory agency. Anything beyond that is the customer's responsibility but the terms and conditions and costs should be spelled out somewhere.

Good luck,

DC

 

[woodzy]

How much do we really need. I have two 200 amp services, one for my barn and the other for the house. Currently we pay about .10 kWh. House bill is about $65 per month and barn is about the same. The most the barn has been is about $180.00 for some electric heat. If I used most of the 200 amp service In both places I would be in the poor house.

 

[hippie2cams]

If you are not going to live in the Motorhome, all you need is to charge batteries. How many amps is that going to take. In my situation, I have 200 amp service to house and when I built my Garage I talked to poco to try and figure what I needed for power. Got a somewhat of a runaround between light company Engineers aka vacation time. Finally Electrical contractor friend of mine suggested separate service underground for clearance for fifthwheel trailer that looked especially good to me. Cost 400.00 for buried cable from metercan to pole and that was it 200 amps to garage and 200 amps to house two meters I bill. Couldn't be happier

 

[Thumper68]

I would check with them on the transformer upgrade, when I out the new table saw in the shop I was causing brownouts for everyone on that transformer, granted not everyone has a 5hp table saw but you might have other power hungry things to feed.
Our poco came out and upgraded the transformer at no cost to us.

I planned for a 200 amp service in the shop but I do tend to eat up power, welder, compressor, table saw, jointer, hot water heater, elec boiler, elec dryer, and I have plans to add a elec oven for preheating and powder coating. Many of these can be running at the same time and in my old shop I managed to trip a 200 amp main a few times.

IMO it is easier and cheaper to put what you need with a bit of future proofing in now than trying to fix it later

 

[Bib Overalls]

IMO it is easier and cheaper to put what you need with a bit of future proofing in now than trying to fix it later

Amen brother.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Some transformers have the KVA capacity painted on them...try looking up at the can...

I have a Klein CL1000 with a clamp. But to get an accurate reading don't have to be able to separate the wires (hot from neutral)?

Depends on where youre measuring at. If in the panel u obviously dont need to split the line.

But if u want to measure the load of the appliance AT the appliance, u can get whats called a line splitter...I have one....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004X...e+splitter&dpPl=1&dpID=41Kj3RHuO2L&ref=plSrch

 

[checkthisout]

My parents house (about 3200 SF with mother in law apt) has 100 amp service. It has 2 each of Natural gas water heaters and furnaces, and clothes dryers. It has electric heat for the hot tub and 2 electric ranges.

I think a house really only needs 200 amp service if you have electric heat and hot water and clothes dryer and range

My 1200 SF mobile home has electric heat and hot water clothes dryer and range. The furnace alone is 20,500 watts and I believe the hot water is 3500 or 5500. The furnace alone chews up more than half of the 200 amp service hence the need for it. Without those two items, the only big draws are your clothes dryer and range.

If your shop and house have propane or NG heat and hot water, the 200 amp service should be more than enough to supply the needs of both.

 

[sands35]

If it was "just" the garage, I think I could get by with a 60amp sub-panel and a total of 200amps. But I need a 50amp circuit for the motorhome which I think is what is driving much of "demand". The 320amps is more than enough.

As somebody else said, 50 amps is only needed if you are going to live in there. If it's just to keep it charged, then a 20 amp plug should be more than enough. For a garage, there is not need to add up all the peek loads on all the circuits, I suppose the only exception would be a welder. Most other devices have high in-rush or startup currents, then level out to well below peak. So 60 or 100 is more than enough to pull from the house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My parents house (about 3200 SF with mother in law apt) has 100 amp service. It has 2 each of Natural gas water heaters and furnaces, and clothes dryers. It has electric heat for the hot tub and 2 electric ranges.

I think a house really only needs 200 amp service if you have electric heat and hot water and clothes dryer and range

My 1200 SF mobile home has electric heat and hot water clothes dryer and range. The furnace alone is 20,500 watts and I believe the hot water is 3500 or 5500. The furnace alone chews up more than half of the 200 amp service hence the need for it. Without those two items, the only big draws are your clothes dryer and range.

If your shop and house have propane or NG heat and hot water, the 200 amp service should be more than enough to supply the needs of both.

the only proper way to figure what size service u need is by doing a load calc! No guessing!