What subpanel to use for my barn

[Zaffer]

I finally joined after lurking about here for info on wiring my garage.

I am going to wire my barn for lights (all led, 8 total) and 5 outlets. The barn is 150' from my garage's 100 amp subpanel. I am planning on running 10/3 and installing a 30 amp breaker at the subpanel in the barn, which will have its own grounding rod. I bought a square D 100 amp load center with 6 spaces. Is this okay to use, and if so, can I use 10/3 as the feeder, or do I have to use 6/3? Is there something better I can use for the subpanel? I plan on putting the lights one one breaker and the outlets on the other. The most I will use the outlets for are box fans (3) or bucket water heater (3). Should I use bigger feeder wire?

Thanks for any info!

 

[pattenp]

For the 150ft distance I'd use #8 Cu for 30A to account for voltage drop. Panel you have is okay.

Are you using conduit? You can use #6 Aluminum and save some money.

 

[mike93lx]

I would use something bigger than a 6 space panel. That doesn't leave much room to grow and it won't cost much more to go bigger now.

As noted above #10 isn't enough for 30a at that distance.

 

[Norcal]

Always get a bigger panel then you think is needed, a 6 space panel is about as useful as a screen door on the hull of a submarine.

 

[pattenp]

I won't disagree on the pro of having a bigger panel, but just for a 30A feed I don't see the need. If the feeder was pushed up to at least 60A I'd go for the larger number of spaces and also make it a main breaker panel.

Oh.. welcome to GJ fellow Virginian.





*

 

[Zaffer]

I'd rather use direct burial, especially since I'm dropping in grade to the barn. As for more spaces, I won't need them as it's a barn and it will never need anything more than what I'm installing, except for MAYBE a couple of flood lights. It's a 6 stall horse barn, one of the stalls being a tack room.

Well, I MIGHT install a point of use water heater, about 10-15 gallon or so, so could I stick with 6 gauge alum., or would I need to go 4 gauge? That "MIGHT" is big as we don't need it there, but one never knows.

 

[sberry]

I got no problem with 6 space panel. It's not a deal breaker to change out should it ever come to that but my bet is it will be fine. But considering the cost of the wire, the distance and the labor a guy can get so much for more. The 6 alum would be ok, 2 doesn't cost but about the same as 10 copper.

 

[Zaffer]

So, of course I was just talking with my wife about a water heater, since the barn is her domain, and she said, "What about a tankless?". I guess I better run bigger wire...make it a 50 or 60 amp panel. Even with that, the spaces would be as follows(so I assume): 1 15A breaker for lights, 1 20A for outlets, and 1 double pole 30A for a water heater, which would leave 2 spaces available. Is it possible to do a main disconnect in this type of panel, or would I need to get a panel with a main breaker in it?

Like I said, not trying to go overboard, just want to run what I might need now. Would 6/3 alum. still be okay, or would I need to 4/3 for 50-60A service?

 

[Zaffer]

So, of course I was just talking with my wife about a water heater, since the barn is her domain, and she said, "What about a tankless?". I guess I better run bigger wire...make it a 50 or 60 amp panel. Even with that, the spaces would be as follows(so I assume): 1 15A breaker for lights, 1 20A for outlets, and 1 double pole 30A for a water heater, which would leave 2 spaces available. Is it possible to do a main disconnect in this type of panel, or would I need to get a panel with a main breaker in it?

Like I said, not trying to go overboard, just want to run what I might need now. Would 6/3 alum. still be okay, or would I need to 4/3 for 50-60A service?

The water heater is a BIG MAYBE as it would mainly be used for bathing her horses in cool weather. Would I even need 50-60A service, or could I get away with 30A?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So, of course I was just talking with my wife about a water heater, since the barn is her domain, and she said, "What about a tankless?". I guess I better run bigger wire...make it a 50 or 60 amp panel. Even with that, the spaces would be as follows(so I assume): 1 15A breaker for lights, 1 20A for outlets, and 1 double pole 30A for a water heater, which would leave 2 spaces available. Is it possible to do a main disconnect in this type of panel, or would I need to get a panel with a main breaker in it?

Like I said, not trying to go overboard, just want to run what I might need now. Would 6/3 alum. still be okay, or would I need to 4/3 for 50-60A service?

Large tankless electric water heaters **** a lot of juice some requiring at least 50a or more.

If u must have 40 or 50 gallons of hot water, get a regular electric tank water heater and upsize the feeder to the panel.

BTW u will need a 4-wire feeder. So if u dont use 6/3 UF-b(which actually has 4-wires) and instead use individual conductors, u will need 2 hots and neutral that are the same size and an EGC/ground wire that can be a reduced size which depends on feeding breaker size.

As far as the main goes, u can have a backfed main but would need the hold down kit for the breaker.

And as always, dont forget to isolate the neutral bus which means for most brands, u will need a ground bar kit that matches what the panel label calls for.

 

[sberry]

Most all the panels are 100A, put a modest water heater. Tankless is way too demanding for this. If you want a real heater 4000 watt, fast ones are 5500 but run 2 alum.

 

[pattenp]

Are you planning on heating the barn where the water is to keep the water lines from freezing?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are you planning on heating the barn where the water is to keep the water lines from freezing?

good point.

Or could use heat tape...

 

[Zaffer]

Not planning on heating the barn, but if worse comes to worse, could insulate the tack room and install a small window heat pump, electric heater, OR use electric tape for the nights that go below freezing. Good point though, didn't really think about that! As for the pipes, they are underground to the barn.

 

[mike93lx]

I'd rather use direct burial, especially since I'm dropping in grade to the barn. As for more spaces, I won't need them as it's a barn and it will never need anything more than what I'm installing, except for MAYBE a couple of flood lights. It's a 6 stall horse barn, one of the stalls being a tack room.

Never? When it was built, seems like power wasn't necessary, but obviously needs change. Sure you can change the panel later, but it is a lot less work to put something bigger in now. Not saying a 42 space panel, but i don't think i would go smaller than 10 space, at least.

 

[ard]

Conduit....

Not sure why you WOULDN'T...

Then for the extra $20, toss another run of 1 in into the trench before you bury it.

Your wife has horses. You are used to pissning money away, right?



(100A service to the barn, water heater and softener; propane heat, air conditioned shop, tack and bathroom (w shower), outdoor mixing valve for horse 'bathing'... So yeah.)

 

[Zaffer]

Luckily my wife's a vet and pretty damn practical. I'll run a 50A circuit to the barn, and I'm seriously considering upgrading to a main breaker panel just so I can shut power off at the barn as well. Won't need A/C or water softener, but I will be installing an outdoor bathing area with a mixer valve, since she wants a water heater. As for my garage, no bathroom needed at the moment, plus I don't want to have to install a septic system for my garage.

 

[rburke65]

Well it's good that that you'll never need more than 6 spaces. With the outrageous prices they want for anything bigger....and with the crazy interest the banks are charging.....just go with the 6 spaces. OR.....how about a used 4 space? A possible......?

 

[Zaffer]

Well it's good that that you'll never need more than 6 spaces. With the outrageous prices they want for anything bigger....and with the crazy interest the banks are charging.....just go with the 6 spaces. OR.....how about a used 4 space? A possible......?

Okay.......Or, as I just said, I'll probably go with a bigger panel since I would like a main breaker in the barn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

I have had 2 times I ever needed larger panels and we knew it going in, 1 was replaced in a remodel, the old was still fine and one we simply used what we had on hand and it actually worked, never replaced. It was never a deal breaker.
I like the little panels, they are so super cheap that it takes a lot of pain out of it. If it needed a main at that point it would be code required. A substandard wire is a limitation in some cases. I use number 2 out of habit and feed them with a 60, I have done a couple dozen of them and never had an occasion to go back to change the breaker up.
It takes all the worry about v drop and some distance out of it, the stuff never realizes its not at service main in that regard, can plug a full size welder in if needed. A water heater wouldn't strain it at all. Room for electric heater if it had to.
Now if you are going to put a better panel in no reason not to give it a decent wire, its so cheap really and the same amount of work.

 

[Zaffer]

Yeah, I was thinking about it after my last reply and there would already be three breakers in line before this panel (100 amp in the main house panel, 100 amp main breaker in the garage panel, and a 50 amp on the barn circuit). Just a thought in case I had to shut power down quickly in the barn, but I am running metal jacketed wire in the barn with metal switch/outlet boxes. Plus, other than lights, outlets, and possibly a water heater, not much else is needed there breaker wise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rrangus]

Tractor Supply has a "milk room" heater that would be adequate to heat the tack room. I have used them in well pump houses, etc with no problems. BUT, they add to the amperage used in the building.

Another point to make. Electrocution of farm animals is the no. 1 killer. As you probably well know horses are well known for cribbing and will chew anything in sight. Either keep all wiring in conduit or well above the range of the horses.

 

[sberry]

Yeah, I was thinking about it after my last reply and there would already be three breakers in line before this panel (100 amp in the main house panel, 100 amp main breaker in the garage panel, and a 50 amp on the barn circuit). Just a thought in case I had to shut power down quickly in the barn, but I am running metal jacketed wire in the barn with metal switch/outlet boxes. Plus, other than lights, outlets, and possibly a water heater, not much else is needed there breaker wise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The code allows for quick shut down for small panels with a limited amount of breakers. The 6 space panel is rated for service entrance and may not need a main for it. I put one in a year ago to a mobile under inspection. They make an 8 space panel in the same box but it isn't really made for feeds to other buildings unless a main is added, it is intended as a sub within the same structure. The 6 is listed just for your application.

 

[Zaffer]

As for the wiring, it will be on the outside of the stalls, where the switches and outlets are. For runs across the stalls, the wire will be through the joists. The horses are only in the barn for feeding in the mornings and evenings anyway. Either way, the wiring will be away from the horses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk