swaterbenny
Well-known member
15 years experience, but no license? Haha.... Seems legit.
What to charge for electrical work?
- Thread starter dthor68
- Start date
ez-duzit
Well-known member
115 years experience and has to ask us what to charge?
sberry
Banned
I am not saying what to do or what to charge but,,,, considering the thousands of times, likely 10's of thousands of times this is done every day you would think the courts would be clogged with lawsuits from it and we would see 100's of insurance claims, denied claims every week or year, that instead of dozens of speculative posts there would be at least 1 actuall story, 1 post of it happening?
I did see it once on people's court where the judge did not enforce a non payment of services due to the fact the guy didn't hold a license.
I did see it once on people's court where the judge did not enforce a non payment of services due to the fact the guy didn't hold a license.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Unlicensed people never win in court to collect their money. The law is written that way.
Licensed people can sue in court. They can also file liens on the property, and when the property owners go to sell or borrow money on their home equity, the lienholder is the first to be paid
Material suppliers can also file liens on the homeowner's property if they don't get paid.
I believe that unpermitted work is covered in the event of a fire. The assumption might be that the homeowner did it themselves but the insurance company is insuring the home and your stupidity in the event your work causes a fire. This came directly from a fire inspector for State Farm.
redneckcharlie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
- Messages
- 125
Bet the OP wishes he didnt start this thread. That being said, this forum never stops to amaze me. Its a couple of lights and a switch for crying out loud. Hes not installing a nuclear reactor in their basement. Im betting theres not a poster on this board that doesnt have some type of unpermitted work or had work performed by someone that wasnt licensed. And Im licensed and bonded up the wazoo.
sberry
Banned
Yes, that's what I meant.
CJ7VFR
Well-known member
I think you're missing the point.
Yes, people on here, including myself, who are not licensed as an electrician, have done work to our own homes.
Yes, we have installed new light switches, and receptacles, and ran new circuits from our load centers, and put in ceiling fans and light fixtures where none were there before. And we accept any consequences for that work because it is in our own homes.
The point is we are doing this for ourselves, NOT for other people, and NOT for money! Once you cross that line of accepting money for work done, you have accepted an unwritten contract for that work. You become the "pro" who installed the items, and as such, you also HAVE to accept the responsibility of guaranteeing that work.
Now, that is not bad if it is just a light switch or replacing a ceiling fan. But once you start doing actual, real electrical work, and something totally unconnected to that job goes wrong with any other part of a persons home that relates to the electrical system, they WILL blame you for it, and ask you to come and fix that item.
Maybe not everyone, but most will. They will say that right after you ran that new line and added that new light switch their garage door opener stopped working. Well, those two items are not even remotely connected, but to people who do not know better, all they see is that right after you did the work in their house, and they paid you, something went wrong, so you must have done something to make that thing stop working.
It can be a slippery slope once you start to accept payment for work.
Now, on the other hand, if you tell the person that you will "help" them replace that light switch, or ceiling fan, or run a new circuit to your fireplace to add in a brand new receptacle for a tv, and you will have them do the actual work while you guide them thru the process, and be their helper, then that is different.
You are not accepting any payment other than some beer, and you are not actually doing all the work, they are doing most of it, then any issues that arise after the work is done, is on THEM, not you.
That is all we are talking about.
Now say for example you ran a new circuit in someone's house for that same receptacle over the fireplace. You did the work, and got paid, and then by accident one of the wires got a short in it and started a fire, and caused damage to that persons house.
Since you are licensed and bonded, your insurance would cover that if they came back to you and said you have to pay for the damage. But what about all the people who are not licensed and bonded? Where would the money come from to pay for the damage to someone else's house?
It was just a simple receptacle installation, but it can turn ugly real fast when money is involved.
Jim
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tfi racing
Well-known member
You must have forgotten. Almost everyone here is a lily clean white knight that is perfect and never broken any rule,standard or regulation, and is there first to report the smallest of transgressions. They have also saved more than every cent they ever made, paid off their house three days after finishing college and pay cash for a brand new vehicle every three years...
Worsedog
Well-known member
It's got **** all to do with being a bureaucratic *****. It is the shitstorm that will occur when something unrelated burns the house down. To deny that it could not happen that way is simply delusional. Court cases like that are not ever about who is right or wrong, only who has the best lawyer.
driftpin
Well-known member
The naysayers can piss and moan about the scope of work all they want. "It's only some romex and an outlet, fer chrissakes!" they proclaim. "Man-up! Take the money, do the job!"
Once substantial damage occurs, a fire for-instance, they are going to look for recovery from any and all parties who had anything to do with the dwelling. "Did you work on the circuit that shorted and burned? No? But you did work on the electrical! A 'yes' or 'no' answer, please! Let the record reflect the defendant answered, 'yes!'"
It's just not worth it.
My wife is 42 years an electrical engineer, and we hire-in a licensed electrician for work.
Once substantial damage occurs, a fire for-instance, they are going to look for recovery from any and all parties who had anything to do with the dwelling. "Did you work on the circuit that shorted and burned? No? But you did work on the electrical! A 'yes' or 'no' answer, please! Let the record reflect the defendant answered, 'yes!'"
It's just not worth it.
My wife is 42 years an electrical engineer, and we hire-in a licensed electrician for work.
Worsedog
Well-known member
Don't you just about have to have a licensed electrician change a light bulb down there anymore?
m32825
Well-known member
Wait... is that an option? If I had a basement I would totally be up for that...
reader2580
Well-known member
But, if the insurance company determines the fire started from work done by an unlicensed electrician there will likely be a lawsuit against that person to recoup the cost of the claim.
Insurance companies spend a lot of money trying to pass the cost of claims onto others. If a convenience store has a fire and the insurance company thinks the fire originated in an ice cream freezer they will hire an accident investigation company to determine if the freezer was the source of the fire. If the fire started in the freezer you can bet there will be legal action against the freezer manufacturer to try to recoup costs of the claim.
reader2580
Well-known member
In Minnesota at least, anyone with an electrical engineering degree can test for a master electrician license without any previous electrical experience. Normally, one has to have years of experience before they can even sit for the test.
I do my own electrical work at my house and I sleep just fine at night. I get permits and inspections for major projects. I follow electrical code and don't take shortcuts to save money. If an old item I have lying around no longer meets code I go out and get a new item.
sberry
Banned
I should have just left the side job I came from the way it was? Ungrounded, loose wire nuts, no box connectors, sposedly the guy had a licence but makes one wonder why he does this shot when we need 230 guys at the hall 7/12's. Ha. This was in a shower house, buried romex, they wondered why the lights didn't work. He had installed a 2 space box, had lights hooked to a lug, no power hooked to box, used the N bar as a junction for all whites and grounds
I went back to main just to make sure it was grounded, it was, white and bste in the same hole and did actually have it on a 20A, one side of a double pole. Had 30 in the new panel, were not wired thru them though. The guy must have lied to the customer about license, had to it was loaded.
I charged decent, fixed the big safety problems and the guy said,,, we get stuff like this all the time. I got a new customer.
I went back to main just to make sure it was grounded, it was, white and bste in the same hole and did actually have it on a 20A, one side of a double pole. Had 30 in the new panel, were not wired thru them though. The guy must have lied to the customer about license, had to it was loaded.
I charged decent, fixed the big safety problems and the guy said,,, we get stuff like this all the time. I got a new customer.
driftpin
Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by driftpin View Post
My wife is 42 years an electrical engineer, and we hire-in a licensed electrician for work.
There are several issues here. One is that the work she did before retirement mostly involved power production settings, not residential wiring.
Another is that I could do some of the work as a homeowner, but asking an electrician to do some of the work, you're not likely gonna find anyone who's willing to bet their license and insurance against your quality of work, unless you are very well-known to the electrician.
Third is that for what the two of us earn, to take time-off to do the work, it's cheaper to pay an electrical contractor who does residential work to do it for us.
Fourth, he got a permit from the city in one day. I could never get that.
Fifth, the power company lineman (it was actually a woman with > 30 years as a lineman) who came to do the disconnect on the weatherhead and the re-connect, knew the contractor, everything went very quickly when the switchout happened.
Sixth, the swap-out of the old Federal Pacific branch circuit panel was long-due. I never had problems with it, thank god. They did all the work for the square D new branch circuit panel install, and for the new 1-car garage wiring inside and out, including switches, duplex outlets, single 240 V outlets, inside and outside lighting,, and service wire burial in conduit, including data cable conduit.
I'll never have to worry-about the work in my lifetime.
Yes, the building and code inspectors are vigilant, but I can inform you we have far-fewer structure fires now than we did over 40 years-ago when I began my career as a paid professional firefighter. Hurricane Andrew in 1992 gave the Florida Building Code a big boost as the industry and governments reacted to stricter codes then and in ensuing revision cycles. I am also a lifesafety inspector and fireservice instructor, so I've had a front-row seat to seeing stricter codes evolve.
Originally Posted by driftpin View Post
My wife is 42 years an electrical engineer, and we hire-in a licensed electrician for work.
Don't you just about have to have a licensed electrician change a light bulb down there anymore?
There are several issues here. One is that the work she did before retirement mostly involved power production settings, not residential wiring.
Another is that I could do some of the work as a homeowner, but asking an electrician to do some of the work, you're not likely gonna find anyone who's willing to bet their license and insurance against your quality of work, unless you are very well-known to the electrician.
Third is that for what the two of us earn, to take time-off to do the work, it's cheaper to pay an electrical contractor who does residential work to do it for us.
Fourth, he got a permit from the city in one day. I could never get that.
Fifth, the power company lineman (it was actually a woman with > 30 years as a lineman) who came to do the disconnect on the weatherhead and the re-connect, knew the contractor, everything went very quickly when the switchout happened.
Sixth, the swap-out of the old Federal Pacific branch circuit panel was long-due. I never had problems with it, thank god. They did all the work for the square D new branch circuit panel install, and for the new 1-car garage wiring inside and out, including switches, duplex outlets, single 240 V outlets, inside and outside lighting,, and service wire burial in conduit, including data cable conduit.
I'll never have to worry-about the work in my lifetime.
Yes, the building and code inspectors are vigilant, but I can inform you we have far-fewer structure fires now than we did over 40 years-ago when I began my career as a paid professional firefighter. Hurricane Andrew in 1992 gave the Florida Building Code a big boost as the industry and governments reacted to stricter codes then and in ensuing revision cycles. I am also a lifesafety inspector and fireservice instructor, so I've had a front-row seat to seeing stricter codes evolve.
CJ7VFR
Well-known member
Hurricane Sandy did this for New Jersey back in 2012 in a way.
There were a lot of homes along the coastline that were not totally destroyed by the hurricane, and people had to have inspectors come in and evaluate the damage to see if the homes could be repaired or if they might have to be razed and replaced.
A lot of the homes were built back in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Most of those homes were built by the people who owned and lived in them during the summers. Once the water went down, and the inspectors could get in there and start removing water logged drywall to gain access behind walls to check on the structural damage of the homes they found another huge issue with the electrical work.
The amount of electrical code violations that were found in just about all the homes was staggering! Electrical cords with the ends cut off were used as wiring inside walls. Light fixtures and receptacles hooked up with no junction boxes and the wires just tucked into the walls. Wire connections done by just twisting wires together, and there were no wire nuts, or tape or anything around the connections.
The list goes on and on. And some home owners are still fighting with their insurance companies 6 years after the hurricane to get the money to either fix or replace the homes.
Jim
rlitman
Well-known member
I find all sorts of crazy things when I open up walls. Most recently, a piece of BX, where someone untwisted it, cut each live conductor, and simply tucked it back into a ceiling cavity.
bczygan
Well-known member
It's all about risk assessment.
Around here (In the city), lots of guys will do any kind of work, because there is little risk. They have nothing of value a court could take. And they go by nicknames, so you couldn't find them anyway.
Bill
Around here (In the city), lots of guys will do any kind of work, because there is little risk. They have nothing of value a court could take. And they go by nicknames, so you couldn't find them anyway.
Bill
3robert 1
Well-known member
While not doubting the original poster's ability, as soon as we accept payment for work done we are considered professional in that field. As such we have to have the credentials required to exercise that trade.if something we're to go wrong the client or their insurance company would look to be compensated for their loss. Are we ready to accept that responsibility?
exranger06
Well-known member
Just wondering out loud here, even if something went wrong and the homeowners decided to sue, couldn't you just deny ever doing the work? "No, I never did any electrical work in that house. I don't even know these people!" It's their word against yours. 
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Just the fact that he's been doing electrical work for 15yrs would cast doubt on his "No" answer. They could show where they wrote his check, and be done with it.
ez-duzit
Well-known member
Just wondering out loud here, even if something went wrong and the homeowners decided to sue, couldn't you just deny ever doing the work? "No, I never did any electrical work in that house. I don't even know these people!" It's their word against yours.
So you would just try to lie your way out of it.
Toomanytools?
Well-known member
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Well it's good enough for Trump
"If you like you Doctor. you can keep your doctor....PERIOD" became, according to the Washington Post, the lie of the year for 2010.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
And now this has gone political. Lock in t minus, 10, 9, 8...
You quoted the wrong one, this crossed the line.
Well it's good enough for Trump
AffableCurmudgeon
Well-known member
Bad idea. In the vent that someth8ng goes wrong, that brief agreement will be exhibit 1 in a case of negligence against you. Horrible idea.
sberry
Banned
I will agree with that, why put it in writing.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
If he has enough confidence in his work to do the job, he should accept the consequences. It goes with the territory.
This thread has morphed from "What do I Charge" to "How do I not get caught".
This thread has morphed from "What do I Charge" to "How do I not get caught".
evercl92
Well-known member
This - he clearly sounds competent to do the work. Assuming standard setup and wiring, this isn't a difficult job, even for someone who doesn't have that much experience.
Buy your own materials, that way you know what to expect. Hand them the bill for those materials. Advise them that the increased cost for the materials (likely not much more anyway) saved / will save you x amount of time, thus well worth it. Agree upon a price that makes it worth it for you, discount to them, and everyone benefits.
6768rogues
Banned
I work for food.