What to do about a large dent in a jointer bed

[spectre6000]

I bought a jointer from CL, and did the inspection without my glasses on... When I got home, I discovered it has this huge dent in the infeed bed, and upon further inspection, both beds are longitudinally concave with the infeed bed being all kinds of wavy to boot.

Sighting down the bed:

Closeup of dent w/ cracks:

The cast iron bed is 1/4" thick, and the cracks (top and right of the main dent) are related to the webbing. There look to be cracks below as well in the middle of the dent, but it could just be the paint.

I need to get this setup before starting my next project, and this is going to need to be the first step. I need to fill and stabilize the dent, and get both beds flat relative to one another.

My first thought was to fill the dent with body lead, then file it down. That would fill the dent, be kinda hard (and probably close enough for anything wooden), and stabilize the cracks to prevent any further issues. I'd have to have it machined at that point. I figure a fly cutter would be accurate enough for woodworking, and I'd be in it for pretty minimal setup plus the cost of the leading flux and lead.

I could also conceivably heat it up with the same torch from the leading idea, and fix the cracks and fill the whole area of the dent with weld (MIG), and that would save me the cost of the body lead, flux, etc., result in a harder surface, probably be even more stable, and I'd again be out the cost of machining.

I thought about trying to find a really wide sanding belt and a piece of hard, stable, manufactured sheet good that I could make a sanding board out of, but I'm not sure that wouldn't ultimately cost more than the machining... I had thoughts about using pieces of paper and a mill file, but the waviness killed that. I also thought about hand scraping the whole thing since that would be a fun skill/toolset to have and the tolerances in the application are low enough that I could afford to screw it up, but I don't think I have a suitable reference plate.

Any other ideas? Thoughts on those posited above?

 

[RivennHewn]

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Product-Line/aT/View/ProductID/3/Lab-metal

Maybe a good candidate for Lab Metal?

Fill it high, then sand it down with a long sanding block.

 

[spectre6000]

Maybe braze?

 

[Corndoggeh]

At best you can put some kind of metal filler in it and sand it straight. You should use a dial indicator to see how much the entire bed is warped. If its under 5 thousandth I wouldn't pay any mind to it since its just wood and not a precision piece of machining. However, you could go get a piece of straight aluminum and see if you can fit a piece of paper under it. If it does so extremely easily just sand down the high spots.

 

[Roberts210]

Concave and wavy infeed and outfeed? Generally that's the result of offshore casting procedures--they don't cure the cast iron properly, and after it's machined, it warps. It will NEVER plane well. I'd get rid of it and get another.

 

[spectre6000]

The waviness is limited to the damaged infeed bed. The outfeed bed is concave, but not so much that I'd give it a second thought were it not for the infeed bed being like it is. It's a decent Delta jointer, and while certainly not the highest caliber of casting, it's also no HF piece of garbage. It's just been abused. When I was taking it apart, I ended up finding all manner of random hardware. Fortunately, the guy didn't get too deep into the more important parts, but it seems like he was the type to have a hardware bucket, and instead of trying to keep the hardware straight so it went back in the hole it came from, he just tossed everything in the bucket and replaced anything with whatever came back out of the bucket that sorta fit... Not a "Type A" personality. He was really old though, so I'm cutting him some slack and trying not to get bent out of shape over it.

I'm concerned with the sanding approach because both beds need to be flat, coplanar, close to 90° to the fence, and there's quite a bit of material that will need to be removed. I think there's enough adjustment in the fence to make that a fairly minimal concern, and I can sand them in situ (same strategy for machining). It would also require a pretty large piece of sandpaper, a similarly large, stable, reference-flat board, and I'm a bit concerned about introducing new forms of deformation. I have considered it and think it is doable, but the cost of a suitably large piece of abrasive paper and a suitably large, stable, machine-flat board might add up.

I think a piece of paper might fit under the straight edge on the outfeed bed, but only in a small section. The infeed bed is where the real problems are. The dent itself is large, deep, cracked, and possibly raised around the perimeter. For several inches around the dent, the bed is distorted in a mostly concave manner. You could easily fit cardstock under a straight edge in the area around the dent, and the dent itself is obviously much worse. It would take a lot of sanding...

 

[spectre6000]

OK. I might have misjudged a bit. I dug out an aluminum drafting square (better straight edge than what I was using earlier) and some feeler gauges. The outfeed table is about .005 at its worst. Nowhere near as bad as I thought. The infeed table is similar on the side closest the fence/opposite the dent. The dent is about .045-.050 at its worst and affects about 6" overall length and 3" width; this corresponds roughly to the webbed section in which it is located. It's about half the width of the bed, and about a third of its length. There is a second wave in the webbed section adjacent the blade opening between the two beds, but it's not as bad at roughly .008-.010.

 

[Roberts210]

What about disassembling them and getting them surface ground?

 

[spectre6000]

Kind of where I was headed initially... The infeed and outfeed beds need to be coplanar at 0", and have a 30° or so angle at the base of the bed sections. When left partially assembled (as they currently are), the base plane and the bed plane are parallel. Setup being the biggest cost component of having something machined, it seems keeping the two beds assembled makes for the lowest cost if I'm to have it machined.

 

[spectre6000]

Repeat posting in my own thread, but it's a separate thought:

There are cracks I'd like to stabilize, but they're not really structural. Simply filling in the cracks is about all that would really be necessary. Additionally, filling the dent isn't necessarily structural since it's just keeping the wood in plane. Simple solder might be plenty to be a good filler of similar hardness... The low temperature required might even be enough to not have to worry too much about cracking, preheating, cooling slowly, etc. Thoughts? What would be the best type of lead free solder to use in this instance (must be machinable)?

 

[nikh]

I like the idea of brazing, but I think soft solder might be too soft in the long run. Another option could be to use an epoxy of sorts. Something along the lines of epocast 934 or hysol ea 9330. Both bond extraordinarily well to metal and are tougher than a woodpecker's lips. The 934 is an approved repair for filling dents on 747 wing flaps, and I have used both to make forming blocks for cold forming aluminum sheet

 

[turbowoodworker]

Have you tried jointing an edge yet?
I'm betting that those tolerances will not affect your woodworking. They sure wouldn't be noticed in mine

 

[spectre6000]

I think silver solder generally works at a lower temp, and possibly low enough to not have to worry about pre/post-heating the cast iron. Should be very nearly as hard and machinable, and should wear extremely well.

I'm pretty broad based in the things I make and do; tools and luthiery included. Anything affecting precision would more likely than not have a deleterious effect, and I'm willing to go the extra mile to prevent that from being an issue. The only reason I finally picked up a power tool over hand tools is because I need to clean and true a huge pile of stock for an upcoming project.

 

[Gizmosity]

I'm in agreement with Turbo: Plug it in. Joint some faces and edges and see if you can get a couple good glue joints. If it works, use it as is. Id keep my eyes open for another, find a good deal on another one sometime down the road and unload this one.

I didn't catch if this was a 6" or 8". I wouldn't put much time or money into a 6" jointer.

 

[Voi]

Another option could be to use an epoxy of sorts. Something along the lines of epocast 934 or hysol ea 9330.

I feel like there is a thread somewhere on Sawmill Creek about filling a ding in a jointer bed with some sort of machine-able, metal filled epoxy. A high end JB weld of sorts as I recall.

I also agree with the other posters about doing some test runs, both face and edge jointing some stock and seeing if they're acceptable for the upcoming project.

 

[spectre6000]

The guy I bought it from said he could never get it set up properly. Being the type a person I am, I figured set up was something I'd be doing to the nines regardless, so old man losing his vision and steady hands was my gain (and likely his as well from a safety standpoint). Something tells me it was more than just setting the blades...

Let's pretend for a minute I don't especially care for epoxy or plastics in general. It's in my back pocket as a viable solution of last resort. I think the epoxy you're looking for is Devcon btw. What about the silver solder plus machining would present a problem?

 

[southalabama]

Let an autobody man spend a few hours with it. Fill prime sand.

 

[Mavawreck]

I think I would be on eBay looking for a parts machine

 

[nikh]

What about the silver solder plus machining would present a problem?

Soft silver solder, 1-3% Ag really isn't much harder than just a basic lead/tin solder, and I suspect it would be too soft to machine well in conjunction with the cast iron. My worries would be either tear out from the bond with the iron or iron chips getting embedded in the softer areas.

Silver brazing, 35-60% Ag, happens at temperatures high enough that I would worry about warping or cracking the casting, 900-1200 F. Plus in my experience it is not a great filler material. It has always worked best if the joints are very tight fitting. But then again, I have never tried to make a big puddle of the stuff.

I think the epoxy you're looking for is Devcon btw.

I don't have experience with that particular brand, but here are some links to the stuff I would use. These are for quart cans, but it is available in smaller volumes.

http://www.ellsworth.com/products/a...octite-hysol-ea-9330-epoxy-adhesive-1-qt-kit/

http://www.ellsworth.com/products/a...-hysol-ea-934na-epoxy-adhesive-gray-1-qt-kit/

 

[Dagny]

I would not heat it. I have that same jointer and can't really see how that small amount could have an effect on the wood.

 

[Rileysan]

No mention of the size, model number, or what you paid. Paying to have your table ground is going to probably cost you more than what you paid for the jointer.

6" jointers are a dime-a-dozen off CL, A decent 40 yo, American made jointer can be had for $100 or less almost daily. Cut your losses and don't waste any more time or money. Buy another jointer and sell this as-is.

Brian

 

[A_Pmech]

Try the machine. As Turbo says, it probably won't affect the quality of the work one bit.

 

[leg17]

Have you tried jointing an edge yet?
I'm betting that those tolerances will not affect your woodworking. They sure wouldn't be noticed in mine

What he said.
Has it caused you a problem?
How short of a board are you planning on squaring up?
Won't the board bridge the dent?

Just make sure that there is no bump around the dent.

 

[sberry]

Let an autobody man spend a few hours with it. Fill prime sand.

I am with this but it would be a few minutes. fill it, see how it worked.

 

[southalabama]

Sberry. I was considering drying time.

Fill it.

Put a longboard on it.

Use it.

 

[Heavyspec46]

www.cotronics.com They have some amazing machinable products.

Sent from my SCH-I545PP using Tapatalk

 

[Git]

I am trying to be realistic here - how do you think that dent in the infeed table is actually going to effect your work? Are you going to be using really small boards - because I would think that anything of a decent size would go right over it.

Edge jointing - just stay off to the side

Take a board you want to flatten and with your pencil, scribble a bunch of lines across it. Then run it through and you should be able to see how well it is removing material

 

[PugetDude]

Fill the dent with JBWeld or LabMetal, sand it with an oversize sanding block made from a full 8x10 sheet of emery paper glued to an 8x10 piece of 3/4" MDF with 3M spray adhesive. Start with 100 grit, sanding diagonally across the table. Alternate direction and work your way through progressively finer grits, up to a finish pass with 220 grit, sanding in-line. It will be flat.

 

[jimreed2160]

For a jointer to machine a true edge, you need the board to be stable on the infeed table, present itself properly to the cutters, and then ride straight and level on the slightly elevated outfeed table. If either bed is concave in small areas, the board should ride through just fine. It really depends on how many good bearing points are present. Voids are not a problem unless they are closely spaced or unless they cover a large area.

You may be able to adjust the fence over to where the table is in better shape. A large dip can be filled with JB weld as has been suggested.

But--construction lumber is inexpensive. Why not joint a few boards and see how they match up? I like that suggestion. Wood is very forgiving and your jointer only has to be in the neighborhood of "dialed in" to work great.

Good luck with your new tool.

 

[spectre6000]

OK. I've taken all of this into consideration, passed it through my use case scenario, standards, and aesthetic filters, called around, done more research, and I think I've come up with a viable approach that will have the desired result.

I'm a luthier (among other things), and the upcoming non-luthiery project that led to this purchase is going to involve planing hundreds, or even thousands of feet in widths from 2" to 6" (a whole series of reclaimed pine butcher block topped workbenches). So I need to be able to plane very small pieces of fine woods (which I would likely do with a selection of hand planes, but a jointer might be nice) and large pieces of less-fine woods. My projects span a very wide range. I can't just say it's a sledge and hope I never need a scalpel.

I'm not going to put more money into it than I could get another for, but I'm also not going to dump the problem on someone else. Either I fix it and make it work, or I break it up and cast it into ingots for other uses down the road.

I don't like the mechanical properties of any epoxy I've ever encountered, and I generally try to avoid the whole category of things whenever possible. I did go to the everything-under-the-sun hardware store, and conducted a detailed survey of the available epoxies. I envisioned an epoxy solution. I researched the **** out of a bunch of other epoxies. In the end, I figure it can make for a serviceable solution, but not a desirable one. If it's the only thing that will work, I'd rather do that than make ingots. So it was my likely case scenario going into this morning.

Meanwhile, I called around to some machine shops this morning. That train of inquiry led me to a welding supply shop where the owner is reputed to have dealt with this sort of thing. That ultimately brought me full circle back to lead-free auto body solder (it's harder and has the benefit of not having any lead in it, which is another category of things I try to avoid whenever possible). There was some question about adhesion, but once I called the manufacturer of the suggested alloy, and they said it should work beautifully citing industrial applications where a very similar alloy product is used regularly.

The body lead is going to require that I bring it down to level, and I have the means to do this without any trouble. From there, I'll make a large sanding board with some 8" sand paper roll, and bring the whole thing to level.

Why go through all the trouble on what is ultimately a cheap jointer? If it works, I'll know how to repair the next, potentially much more expensive tool that needs fixing down the road. If it doesn't I only butchered a cheap jointer. All in for the body lead and flux, I'm looking at probably about $30-$50, maybe less.

At this point, I probably disappear into the shop and the thread climbs down the pages. If there's any interest though, I can try to remember to take some photos and post my results when I get around to this some time around January.

 

[jimreed2160]

I am sure these projects are clear in your mind, but not in mine. You also mention "planing hundreds or even thousands of feet" and widths of up to 6". Are you sure you need a jointer and not a planer?

My $.02 worth is that you strongly consider safety with this tool. Face jointing 6" wide hardwoods is not fun on home workshop jointers. Ditto with "small pieces". Small pieces will get you hurt.

I like that you mentioned handplanes. That is how I joint most of my boards and prepare surfaces. It is quieter and safer. I use my 6" Delta jointer sparingly--mostly for edge jointing large boards.

Good luck with your project. Be sure to post some pictures when you come to a conclusion.

 

[yhprum]

Fill it in with good quality non absorbent body filler, block sand with a long flat straight piece of metal. it will be very flat if done correctly. If it doesn't work out some light heating from a propane torch will remove it with no worries of more damage

 

[rsanter]

Applying heat to a cast part may make it relax, to you that means it could warp in an uncontrolled way. So I would do nothing that heats it.

Machining it flat? You will be referencing what plane to machine to? Don't think that is viable

Epoxy, I think that is the best solution but you don't like it. Ther are pleanly or good epoxies but they won't hold for damn unless you prep the surface to give it some tooth to hold onto.

Find a super flat hard surface and try to work at least some of the dent out from the back. I would be tempted to try this. At least get the part off and get it onto a surface plate or other very flat surface to see how warped or twisted it is.

If it was me I think I would look for a machine being parted out or a junker machine that you could buy for the parts

Bob

 

[Alchymist]

I feel like there is a thread somewhere on Sawmill Creek about filling a ding in a jointer bed with some sort of machine-able, metal filled epoxy. A high end JB weld of sorts as I recall.

I also agree with the other posters about doing some test runs, both face and edge jointing some stock and seeing if they're acceptable for the upcoming project.

http://www.moglice.com/moglice.html

 

[BikerDad]

What matters is how far from the cutter head the damage is located. If it's more than 6", then it doesn't really matter. You'll have enough space to keep the board down on the "good area" of the bed as it goes into the cutter head. If it's more than a foot, then not only will you have the space, but you'll have LOTS of room. If it were a RAISED area, that would be more problematic, but it's not.

Cosmetically, it's an issue. Functionally, tis not. This doesn't mean that there aren't other problems with the machine. Given that it looks like somebody dropped a pile driver on that spot to cause the damage, it's quite possible that the ways were also damaged. That would account for the difficulty the PO had in getting it aligned properly. I would closely inspect the ways of both tables, and the adjusting mechanism, which may also be tweaked from whatever impacted that poor beastie.