What to do when Breaker Box is full?

[99ishvr4]

I'm moving at the end of this month into another rental house. I have a 2-pole Air compressor breaker and a 2-pole oven breaker that I usually bring along with me and install in the garage. I have mostly lived in newer houses so there is usually a large breaker box with at least 8 unused spots for breakers to be installed.

However, this next house I am looking at that is perfect for me in just about every way is an older house with a smaller breaker box and it is completely full. I haven't moved in yet, and this breaker box is the make-it or break-it of selecting this house. Currently, there is a subpanel coming off of the breaker box and it has 1 breaker in it, but no room for any others. Unfortunately, I did not get a picture of the subpanel.

Here are some pics of the breaker box, unfortunately, the hand-writing is completely unreadable so I cannot even tell what the current breakers are for.

It's odd that the label even looks burnt in some areas. I know enough to install simple circuits into an existing breaker box with extra room, but my electrical knowledge stops there, and if I'm going end up having to pay an electrician hundreds of dollars to install a sub-panel, then I will just move on to a different house. But I just wanted to run this buy the GJ to see what my options are. I am just renting the house, not buying it, so I prefer cheaper DIY solutions. I thought of just positioning the air compressor and stove on each side of the washer and dryer and just swapping them with the dryer plug, but that is a pain and puts the compressor and stove in spots that are less than ideal.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[G_P]

That whole panel needs to be replaced. It is an accident/fire waiting to happen.

http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/fpe.aspx

 

[RogueFab]

I'm moving at the end of this month into another rental house. I have a 2-pole Air compressor breaker and a 2-pole oven breaker that I usually bring along with me and install in the garage. I have mostly lived in newer houses so there is usually a large breaker box with at least 8 unused spots for breakers to be installed.

However, this next house I am looking at that is perfect for me in just about every way is an older house with a smaller breaker box and it is completely full. I haven't moved in yet, and this breaker box is the make-it or break-it of selecting this house. Currently, there is a subpanel coming off of the breaker box and it has 1 breaker in it, but no room for any others. Unfortunately, I did not get a picture of the subpanel.

Here are some pics of the breaker box, unfortunately, the hand-writing is completely unreadable so I cannot even tell what the current breakers are for.

It's odd that the label even looks burnt in some areas. I know enough to install simple circuits into an existing breaker box with extra room, but my electrical knowledge stops there, and if I'm going end up having to pay an electrician hundreds of dollars to install a sub-panel, then I will just move on to a different house. But I just wanted to run this buy the GJ to see what my options are. I am just renting the house, not buying it, so I prefer cheaper DIY solutions. I thought of just positioning the air compressor and stove on each side of the washer and dryer and just swapping them with the dryer plug, but that is a pain and puts the compressor and stove in spots that are less than ideal.

Any help is appreciated.

Stab-lok are well known and notorious. Those are burn marks. One hand and thick gloves when working on that panel, including flipping breakers on. Those have burned down a few more houses than I'm comfortable with. My old one is in the landfill.

Breakers aren't made anymore. You can get them used.

Sub panel is the best solution I can imagine if you decide to live in a house with that panel. I would see if the LL will pony up the $1000 or so to replace it. Maybe you could give him the $100 or so you would spend on a temporary sub panel to help him decide.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That is an old "flaming pacific" breaker panel. Run, do not walk away from it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Odds are, most of the breakers will not trip when subjected to an overload, and the burned spots are probably there for a reason, got too hot!!!!!!

Do not buy unless the panel is replaced, or enough money is allowed to replace the panel properly.

Edit: sorry, I see you are renting...... stay away from the Federal Pacific panel, could easily burn the house down around you. Wouldn't want to sleep in a house with one of those panels.

Charles

 

[CNGsaves]

Appears this "everything you want" rental house is in DIRE NEED for you come to rescue and force landlord to CHANGE OUT that panel !!

Now your choices are:

a) negotiate free rent for 2 or 3 months (written agreement w/ LL) so you can hire appropriate electrician and yank out that death-box . . . OR . . . .

b) skip on renting that one, BUT you now must REPORT that dangerous electrical panel to CITY INSPECTION DEPARTMENT so that no one else lives there until it's fixed.

 

[Eriehunter]

FEDERAL PACIFIC PANEL...... RUN LIKE HELL.... The breakers don't trip when they are supposed to.

 

[600SL]

Good to know. I never heard about this.

http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/fpe_malfunction.aspx

 

[sberry]

There were some problems with them but its not like every one went up in flames.

 

[Falcon67]

Oooh - FP! You could maybe sell those breakers for enough to replace the panel, they ain't cheap. And I've heard about the fire thing - our old house had 4 FP boxes on it for 40 years until I put in a new GE box. Never a spark. Actually, that house still has an FP box put on my the utility years ago for the 30A dryer feed.

 

[Norcal]

You can buy UL classified breakers for FPE very expensive though, but Stab-Lok breakers do have a bad reputation.....


If I was a landlord would take a real dim view of tenants doing electrical work, torn out some real gems done by tenants.

 

[99ishvr4]

This is why I love this forum, I would have never of known of the dangers of the Stab-loc box. After Googling it, I will see if the landlord wants to replace it or I will just move on. Thanks for saving me from a fiery death.

 

[snappytom]

Oooh - FP! You could maybe sell those breakers for enough to replace the panel, they ain't cheap. ..........

Current house had an FP panel which I replaced shortly after moving in. It was several years ago, but I put the old breakers on eBay and had many people bidding on them. Don't recall the exact amount but it was surprising how much they sold for.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

AHHH! FPE panel! Run like hell! Renters doing electrical is a no no, and in this case would be a HUGE liability because of the fire risk!

OP- u mentioned that u have breakers which u take with u from house to house if i understood u correctly. A word of caution. If youre doing this and the breakers u have arent listed for use with the panel youre putting them in, u need to get new breakers. U cant just put any brand of breaker in any panel even though it may fit!

 

[scoob8000]

I've read the horror stories about the FPE panels. We had one at our old house for the 22 years we lived there without any issues. I even added circuits and added to it.

But that said it always concerned me.

Beings it's a rental I'd take it up with the landlord. See if you could get him to foot the bill to replace it with a larger (safer) panel. Even if you have to help out with the cost, it could still work out in your favor. Use safety and future expansion as your selling points.

 

[99ishvr4]

AHHH! FPE panel! Run like hell! Renters doing electrical is a no no, and in this case would be a HUGE liability because of the fire risk!

OP- u mentioned that u have breakers which u take with u from house to house if i understood u correctly. A word of caution. If youre doing this and the breakers u have arent listed for use with the panel youre putting them in, u need to get new breakers. U cant just put any brand of breaker in any panel even though it may fit!

I worded it wrong, I meant circuits, as in I buy a new breaker to match the panel, and just use my existing wiring, conduit, and outlets. First breaker was a Siemens, current house has Square D. I buy the appropriate breakers and I have had it approved by the landlords before doing anything.

 

[99ishvr4]

I've read the horror stories about the FPE panels. We had one at our old house for the 22 years we lived there without any issues. I even added circuits and added to it.

But that said it always concerned me.

Beings it's a rental I'd take it up with the landlord. See if you could get him to foot the bill to replace it with a larger (safer) panel. Even if you have to help out with the cost, it could still work out in your favor. Use safety and future expansion as your selling points.

I'll try talking to the landlord about it, getting the panel replaced is the only way I would move into the house at this point. Not sure if he'll go for it though considering Tenant A will move in with no problems, and I'm tenant B requiring a new panel be installed as a condition to move in.

 

[Syberia]

Not only is it a FPE panel, but there are already burn marks on it. That, in my mind, removes all doubt that it is unsafe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'll try talking to the landlord about it, getting the panel replaced is the only way I would move into the house at this point. Not sure if he'll go for it though considering Tenant A will move in with no problems, and I'm tenant B requiring a new panel be installed as a condition to move in.

No matter what tenant moves in, if the landlord doesnt replace it after knowing its bad, is a huge negligence suit waiting to happen!

 

[alfredeneuman]

How will the landlord know it's bad?

I can see it now. The OP says "A couple of guys on an Internet Forum said it should be replaced"

The only way to know if it needs to be replaced will be by a qualified electrician checking it out in person.

The marks on the inside label might not be burn marks at all. They could be mildew.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How will the landlord know it's bad?

I can see it now. The OP says "A couple of guys on an Internet Forum said it should be replaced"

The only way to know if it needs to be replaced will be by a qualified electrician checking it out in person.

The marks on the inside label might not be burn marks at all. They could be mildew.

The panel is an FPE...those were NEVER UL listed and had fradulent UL stickers on them, should automatically be replaced and because of the non UL listing many insurance companies will not payout on claims related to these panels...Just like how some insurance companies wont insure houses with K+T wiring because of the high risk....I have a friend who couldnt get a loan for a house because it had an FPE panel until the panel was replaced

 

[alfredeneuman]

The panel is an FPE...those were NEVER UL listed and had fradulent UL stickers on them, should automatically be replaced and because of the non UL listing many insurance companies will not payout on claims related to these panels...Just like how some insurance companies wont insure houses with K+T wiring because of the high risk....I have a friend who couldnt get a loan for a house because it had an FPE panel until the panel was replaced

They WERE UL listed.

When Reliance Electric took them over and discovered the fraudulently obtained UL stickers on the breakers, they were unavailable for about 6 months. They were subsequently marked with UL stickers that were Magenta colored as opposed to the fraudulent yellow stickers.

The panel itself was ALWAYS UL approved.

Federal Pacific still manufactures transformers to this day.

 

[99ishvr4]

I decided to go with another house. The house with the FPE panel was being rented out through a realty company so I never even got to speak with the actual home owner. I brought up the issue of the box with the realty company and asked to speak with the home owner about it. They said they would contact him and get back to me, I never received a call back and I found another house a couple days later.

I hope whatever tenants move into the house has no issues with it.

 

[ddawg16]

I'm moving at the end of this month into another rental house. I have a 2-pole Air compressor breaker and a 2-pole oven breaker that I usually bring along with me and install in the garage. I have mostly lived in newer houses so there is usually a large breaker box with at least 8 unused spots for breakers to be installed.

Why does this set off all kind of warning flags to me?

Really? How often does a 'renter' bring his own ckt breaker?

 

[99ishvr4]

Why does this set off all kind of warning flags to me?

Really? How often does a 'renter' bring his own ckt breaker?

I personally would not allow my tenants to do any wiring either if I rented out houses. But it is one of the first things I have asked my 2 previous landlords before moving in and they both allowed it. Both of them were guys that already had little workshops setup in the garage though and I guess they trusted me to do it. If they allow it, and I trust that it is safe, then I guess I don't see the issue. I did lots of research before hand and triple-checked everything during the install.

This house that I am just moving into said no to me doing it, but said they can have their electrician install it for me. However, they stated it will be a permanent install and I cannot take the supplies with me again.

 

[toplessHO]

The panel is an FPE...those were NEVER UL listed and had fradulent UL stickers on them, should automatically be replaced and because of the non UL listing many insurance companies will not payout on claims related to these panels...Just like how some insurance companies wont insure houses with K+T wiring because of the high risk....I have a friend who couldnt get a loan for a house because it had an FPE panel until the panel was replaced

can you please post info to show this?
It was my understanding that FPE 30 amp 2 pole breakers were the only ones that had the fraudulent UL listing on them.
Granted Im not a fan of FPE and have seen my share of non functioning/tripping breakers.
heres a temporary solution to the non UL listed breakers

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I brought up the issue of the box with the realty company and asked to speak with the home owner about it. They said they would contact him and get back to me, I never received a call back ...

No surprise !

I looked at a house for my daughter early this year. Very old, several addition. The electrical was a disaster. Washer running on an extension cord, etc. I told the Realtor and got the feigned "Oh really ?" response !

(Also one of the stupidest kitchen remodel I have ever seen !)

 

[alfredeneuman]

can you please post info to show this?
It was my understanding that FPE 30 amp 2 pole breakers were the only ones that had the fraudulent UL listing on them.

Here's the Consumer Product Safety Commission's findings.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/New...nd-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers/

They didn't have enough data to support the claims against FPE, and closed the investigation ... And they are the ones that recall products.

 

[toplessHO]

sounds like the "safe" way out for both parties
again the consumer takes it on the chin.

 

[Norcal]

I personally would not allow my tenants to do any wiring either if I rented out houses. But it is one of the first things I have asked my 2 previous landlords before moving in and they both allowed it. Both of them were guys that already had little workshops setup in the garage though and I guess they trusted me to do it. If they allow it, and I trust that it is safe, then I guess I don't see the issue. I did lots of research before hand and triple-checked everything during the install.

This house that I am just moving into said no to me doing it, but said they can have their electrician install it for me. However, they stated it will be a permanent install and I cannot take the supplies with me again.

can you please post info to show this?
It was my understanding that FPE 30 amp 2 pole breakers were the only ones that had the fraudulent UL listing on them.
Granted Im not a fan of FPE and have seen my share of non functioning/tripping breakers.
heres a temporary solution to the non UL listed breakers

The breakers shown made by UBI would be UL "classified" not listed as they are classified by UL to be used in FPE panels, a OEM breaker would be UL listed, but FPE no longer exists.

 

[alfredeneuman]

FPE at one time had tested listed products that were safe, otherwise they never would have attained UL listing in the first place, but what really happened is that as time went on component and material sources changed (as they all do) and what FPE did was falsify their records to UL that would have triggered a re-test.

If the CB manufacturer changes ANYTHING in that CB, a copper part, a rivet, a molded case part etc., UL technically has to be notified of any change and it may trigger a re-test of the entire product line. At about $20k per line item, that ends up being very expensive.

FPE's crime was that they tried to circumvent that process and not tell UL they had changed anything when in fact they had.
By the end of the '70s when the investigations started, essentially the breakers they were making in the '50s when they attained the UL listing were eventually composed of many different (and as it turned out, critical) components and materials, some of which were failing. So the anecdotes that came in where people said "I've never had a problem" were likely entirely true. Unfortunately, nobody knows exactly when the FPE QC program went South.

 

[sberry]

I have never heard a reliable account of an insurance claim denied because of the panel.

 

[toplessHO]

from what I remember the 30 amp 2 poles were the only ones they got nailed for.
All of those were pulled off the shelves and it left alot of home builders in major limbo.
I saw $4 breakers go for $75 until it was rectified. General Switch co then came up with a replacement to help but the damage was already done to FPE.

 

[Big Bob]

I have one of these FPE's (circa 1960) in my house, and, come to think of it, have only tripped a breaker a time or two in decades. I have often thought of having my service upgraded to 200 amp, what breaker box brand should I request if I can get the scratch to get this done.

 

[imjustdave]

I decided to go with another house. The house with the FPE panel was being rented out through a realty company so I never even got to speak with the actual home owner. I brought up the issue of the box with the realty company and asked to speak with the home owner about it. They said they would contact him and get back to me, I never received a call back and I found another house a couple days later.

I hope whatever tenants move into the house has no issues with it.

With your photos showing burn marks I think you have a responsibility at a minimum of letting the PUD, inspector ETC know. I'm not one to tattle tell but this is a house fire waiting to happen and if the LL just ignored your inquiry then some poor renter maybe burned ... no pun intended.