What to Expect from Civil Engineer?

[HPRifleman]

Have any of you used a civil engineer for your garage or home builds?

My municipality requires an engineering site plan regarding the location of the garage relative to lot setbacks. But the quotes I have been getting also include other work such as a topographical survey and grading plan.

I'm not opposed to paying for extra work provided this is a benefit to me. But never having used a civil engineer before, I'm not sure what the advantage is to the home-owner other than satisfying the local governmental jurisdiction.

Any experiences?

 

[Cypress]

Most architectural plans are tied into the site elevations / topo. The structural engineer also uses the site elevations to set his top of concrete for foundation walls. Normally the architectural plans will call out main lvl floor at +100’-0” which is then tied to the site elevations elsewhere. Example: +100’-0” = +2,135.7’ above sea level.

Topo is also crucial for architects to draw proper exterior elevations because it tells them how the building / materials meet grade.

The town cares about this because they want to see that foundation walls are 6”+ above grade and positive drainage from foundation. Also, as you mentioned, prop lines, setbacks and easements are also important and all shown on the survey.

 

[ssdave]

....

 

[Don1357]

I remember setting the setback for my garage. I set my stakes and called the neighbor over, he said it looked good.

The dirt guy, different than the cement guy, made sure the lot would drain which granted it only took a bit of shaving on one side.

 

[driftpin]

ssdave's advice is valuable to having a successful build. Like anything-else, you want to believe your professional is giving you what you need, at a reasonable price. Often if whom you contact cannot do the job, because they do larger projects, they will be able to refer you to another whose scope of work encompasses your planned site improvements. Everything he mentioned has value, especially if you have slope on the property. You probably have a "closest-to the setback" thought, which may-not be the best plan, if you have a mature tree in the area, which you want to-keep. Utility easements and drainage easements should be on a sealed survey, and accommodating them in the site plan is what you need to do to avoid problems later, or in the review process.

 

[speedracerfx]

My township tried forcing me to use a Civil Engineer for my garage project too (poured the pas this morning!). That would have cost $4000 (just to tackle the stormwater management part)?!?! Plus, the Engineer wanted to design an infiltration trench would cost thousands to build. No f'n way. Thankfully, the township doesn't require a formal plan submitted by an engineer, so I've done everything myself, including the stormwater management plan. I submitted a poorly hand drawn sketch for that, and it passed. lol. I've even taught the township code inspector a couple things along the way.

Edit: to answer you question "what to expect from a civil engineer"...expect to take it up the wazoo without lube. Do the work yourself, if possible.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Edit: to answer you question "what to expect from a civil engineer"...expect to take it up the wazoo without lube. Do the work yourself, if possible.

From my experience it all depends on the engineer. Some are good at considering all the options and recommending the one that makes the most sense for the project, others have only one way of doing things that tends to be highly effective but expensive.

 

[larry4406]

I agree with ssdave - he hit all the key points and I will add one - height certificate. Some municipalities have criteria on maximum height of structures and a certified measurement of same is required as part of permit closeout.

Its one thing to build in a congested urban city compared to out in a cornfield somewhere. This seems to get lost in these types of discussions. The former is apt to be up your wazoo with set backs, grading plan, stormwater management, height certification, impervious area tabulations, infiltration trenches, permeable pavers, etc while the later the building official hands you your inspection at the gas pump while you chew the fat if a permit is even required.

 

[Beauregard]

Would a topographical survey and grading plan be of benefit to show your homeowner's insurance adjuster in the event your property gets flooded in the future? It would show due diligence.

 

[ssdave]

....

 

[Don1357]

Personally I feel that this normalization of something that most of the time is a complete waste of effort, not to say money, is disturbing.

After the last big earthquake I had some cracks on the soil under my sauna, which is facing a slope. I measured and the structure is no longer level. Not enough to see with the naked eye but certainly it wasn't like that. I need to get an expert to come take a look and see what sort of remediation may be needed. The point is that I _need_ that expertise and I'll be happy to _pay_ for that expertise.

Going on about what sort of 'benefit' could be gotten from a civil engineer coming to take a look at what probably is mostly flat lot? The thought of frogs and boiling water comes to mind.

 

[speedracerfx]

If you have a chip on your shoulder like speedracerfx, know it all already, and just expect to be hosed, let them know that.

Back it up there, bub. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, nor do I know it all. Show me where I said I did. I'm just speaking to my experience. Period. Don't get your ******* twisted because of it.

 

[ssdave]

....

 

[finn]

Back it up there, bub. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, nor do I know it all. Show me where I said I did. I'm just speaking to my experience. Period. Don't get your ******* twisted because of it.

That’s not how your post comes across.

 

[speedracerfx]

That’s not how your post comes across.

It's not up to me on how you want to take it.

 

[HalfTonTom]

I hired an uncivil engineer once. I don't recommend it.

 

[Don1357]

It's kind of funny your example. I'd say to you that you don't need an engineer and expertise, just watch it for a year or two and see if it gets worse. I'd expect things to be off a bit after an earthquake. Fix it if it gets worse, if the nearly immeasurable amount of off level is what occurred during an earthquake, what is the bad thing that is going to happen without an earthquake, that you need help with?

It has been stable since the earthquake. The thing is I would like to put a Japanese bath on the sauna, and water can be ridiculously heavy. For instance a round cedar tub 3' tall by 5' wide can top 4,000 pounds with just two people in it. Because of this I already need to reinforce the foundation, and may as well do it in such a way that is more earthquake resistant.

Heck the slope is in seem to be a back fill... An engineer could determine that it is just waiting to go and that I should just pull the building a few feet. I don't know, I barely can do PSI calculations on flat ground so I'm not gonna dare to guess on this.

 

[That Guy Scott]

I had to hire a Civil Engineer for my project. He did the topo map, site plan, grading plan, septic plan, assisted in the archeological survey, and the soils report and testing. I built my house 18 months ago and just finished my shop last month. My civil engineer was $5500 and it was some money well spent. I’ve used the above plans When I built my shop and I’ll use them again later this year when I build the pool. The nice thing is I can call him damn near anytime for any questions or problems I have. He’s helped tremendously in getting permits issued. For instance, during the shop build, the FD was giving me grief over hydrant location, setback, and fire engine access. He helped ease that process and I got everything approved with a phone call (he’s well known and respected by the AHJ). I met with 4 different engineers before hiring him. Maybe talk to some guys in the local trades or city and see who they know and recommend.

 

[yeldogt]

The OP needs to find out exactly what's required ... they (the professionals) may be mentioning items knowing they will be needed.

In my area -- disturb 1000sf and you hit one level .... disturb 2k and it's now another. Disturb is not the building .... it's the earth. how much will be moved or touched during the build.

Same with adding impervious area .. add enough and you need stormwater management ... in a conservation district (some whole counties are "conservation districts") need to provide them a plan ..... small stream nearby ... plan to protect.

It's all crazy .... but you will not get a building permit .. if you start and go over the trigger sf areas and don't have the ducks in a row .. they shut you down.

It's become a crazy battle in some areas .... it's really annoying when you have to put money in escrow so they can use it to pay the town professionals to fight you.

 

[niget2002]

I use a civil engineer all the time, but it's because my sister is one.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

 

[Don1357]

Same with adding impervious area .. add enough and you need stormwater management ... in a conservation district (some whole counties are "conservation districts") need to provide them a plan ..... small stream nearby ... plan to protect.
.

Impervious areas... buddy of mine built his garage behind his house in college park Maryland, jump through all sorts of flaming hoops to make it happen. When he finished he put down some gravel on the side of the house to drive over, mind you not even that much. Well according to them gravel is an impervious surface so they made him take it out.
Luckily compacted fill is not impervious...

 

[joey1320]

You can expect him to tell you he/she is an engineer every other sentence. Hopefully he/she isn't a vegan too, you won't get a word in.

 

[yeldogt]

Impervious areas... buddy of mine built his garage behind his house in college park Maryland, jump through all sorts of flaming hoops to make it happen. When he finished he put down some gravel on the side of the house to drive over, mind you not even that much. Well according to them gravel is an impervious surface so they made him take it out.
Luckily compacted fill is not impervious...

yes -- stones are ...

compacted fill is disturbed

 

[jonshonda]

I would expect arrogance, a bad attitude, and the use of words you don't understand.

jkjk

 

[HPRifleman]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I appreciate the suggestions.

To clarify some things based on your comments,

My architect has already drawn out the garage, elevations, and foundation plan.

The village only requires a site plan showing the new garage as well as a spot survey to confirm placement. My contractor has recommended that the engineer do that plus staking the foundation location before excavation.

A topographical plan is quoted but only extends to 10-25 feet around the garage foundation. That is an area that has almost no elevation variation. If this survey extended to the entire 4 1/2 acres then the $2000 cost adder might be more palatable.

One interesting thing that I saw in the original quotes was the inclusion of mapping the location of every tree greater than 6" diameter. I have a wooded property and there must be over a hundred trees that fall into this category. I'm curious how they would accomplish this (if they did the entire lot).

 

[HPRifleman]

I would expect arrogance, a bad attitude, and the use of words you don't understand.

jkjk

Wow!

As a mechanical engineer I hope your stated expectations are limited to the civil discipline.

 

[Slednut]

Thanks for this thread, I always thought a civil engineer was a reasonable person who drove a train.

 

[velocipede]

Twenty five years of working closely with civil engineers to develop site plans that met municipal and state standards. If you have a problem with what a firm gives you, it's most often their best shot at meeting some pretty severe restrictions imposed by increasingly micro managing/over reaching rule makers. My guys usually walked the client through every step of the process and provided alternatives. Never met an incompetent PE, just some with tunnel vision. YMMV

 

[ssdave]

....

 

[billspit]

I used to work for an engineering company that had a ton f civil engineers. We wouldn’t touch residential work. Too much liability for too little fee. We once got sued by a home owner that we had no contract with. We won the case but it cost us $500k and years to fight it. The court should have thrown it out in the beginning.

 

[Don1357]

yes -- stones are ...

compacted fill is disturbed

Really? Because I have an extremely large area of gravel and I have never seen water running on it, no mater the storm and not even on the sloped driveway. There mus be some special gravel they have on your neck of the woods.

 

[GMCGarage]

My township tried forcing me to use a Civil Engineer for my garage project too (poured the pas this morning!). That would have cost $4000 (just to tackle the stormwater management part)?!?! Plus, the Engineer wanted to design an infiltration trench would cost thousands to build. No f'n way. Thankfully, the township doesn't require a formal plan submitted by an engineer, so I've done everything myself, including the stormwater management plan. I submitted a poorly hand drawn sketch for that, and it passed. lol. I've even taught the township code inspector a couple things along the way.

Edit: to answer you question "what to expect from a civil engineer"...expect to take it up the wazoo without lube. Do the work yourself, if possible.

Most engineers do what it takes to do it right, not what it takes to get a permit. Some things are over kill, some things can come back and karma your wazoo.

 

[LX-Markham]

LOL, I would love to see the “poorly hand drawn stormwater management sketch”. Please post.

 

[HPRifleman]

Personally, I'd pass at a topo that goes 10-25 feet from the garage for $2000. Once I had the property lines located, my control set up, I'd map a couple of acres and locate the trees for $2000 in a topo.

I'd add one hour of field time at $125 to $175 for mapping 25 feet from the garage, and 2 hours of office time at $125 to draw the topo. I can't see how they get $2000 out of it, decent terrain I'll charge about $1000 to $1500 per acre, after the cost of the initial survey and setup. It takes just about the same amount of time to set control and setup the instrument as it does to map an acre of ground. And, maybe three hours per acre to process the topo and draw the improvements on the topo map.

On how do we locate trees? We put either a GPS receiver or a prism for a total station against the tree. The data collector program has a routine that lets you enter the size of the tree, and it adjusts to put the tree at the true spot, since you're measuring to the face of it. I code the tree with a descriptor that I can use on the map, such as 6O for 6 inch oak, 18M for 18 inch maple, etc. For some clients, I'll measure the canopy spread by pacing or a tape measure, and enter that information.

Thank you for the insight. I would hate to have to walk up to every 6"+ tree we have on our property. There are about two dozen just in the front yard.

Regarding topographical work, the quotes I have so far:

Quote 1: $1800, 25' from limit of garage.
Quote 2: $625, limits need to be clarified.
Quote 3: $1950, 10' from limit of garage.

Quotes #1 and #3 are larger firms and #2 seems like maybe a one-man operation. But that's just a guess.

 

[yeldogt]

Really? Because I have an extremely large area of gravel and I have never seen water running on it, no mater the storm and not even on the sloped driveway. There mus be some special gravel they have on your neck of the woods.

I did not say it was logical ....

Stones count towards max impervious

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks to everyone that responded. I appreciate the suggestions.

To clarify some things based on your comments,

My architect has already drawn out the garage, elevations, and foundation plan.

The village only requires a site plan showing the new garage as well as a spot survey to confirm placement. My contractor has recommended that the engineer do that plus staking the foundation location before excavation.

A topographical plan is quoted but only extends to 10-25 feet around the garage foundation. That is an area that has almost no elevation variation. If this survey extended to the entire 4 1/2 acres then the $2000 cost adder might be more palatable.

One interesting thing that I saw in the original quotes was the inclusion of mapping the location of every tree greater than 6" diameter. I have a wooded property and there must be over a hundred trees that fall into this category. I'm curious how they would accomplish this (if they did the entire lot).

The tree aspect is a strange one. My current project being a very old property --had three old street trees ... all at end of life. There was also two areas where the previous owner planted ornamental trees. I had to remove the street trees before even thinking of starting my project ... nothing could be submitted or the trees would have been protected. The ornamentals --- equally strange. The engineer wanted me to stake fence around the trees -- each one. To protect them during construction ... the only tree worth keeping was a nice red maple (but, not in current location). I told the engineer and the permitting department that I wanted to keep them only during construction -- to hide the construction process. I was not going to pay to protect them ...also, the fencing would get in the way. So my choices .... cut them down or protect them with fencing. I cut them down ... my landscaper took the maple.

 

[gearhead1]

Have any of you used a civil engineer for your garage or home builds?

My municipality requires an engineering site plan regarding the location of the garage relative to lot setbacks. But the quotes I have been getting also include other work such as a topographical survey and grading plan.

I'm not opposed to paying for extra work provided this is a benefit to me. But never having used a civil engineer before, I'm not sure what the advantage is to the home-owner other than satisfying the local governmental jurisdiction.

Any experiences?

Yes, I have used a civil engineer for my garage build. But it was not for a site plan.

I had the detached garage concrete work done the same time as the house concrete work was done. The county wanted a sketch from me where the building was going to be. I printed off a google satellite view and put dimensions on it. The county approved it. The surveyor staked the corners of the building based off where I wanted it. Presumably the county inspector verified the setback when they inspected the house construction.

I used a free plan for the garage from a local building supply kit and modified it. I modified the drawings by hand and the county had no issue with that. I used the civil engineer to define the foundation drawing. I am also a mechanical engineer, I can do most things myself. But I had no training on concrete stuff and building construction. I was specifically concerned about the footer between the garage doors since that area would see a lot more load due to the two big openings next to each other. It was worth the $350. I know what I have is done right and I’m not going to have problems with it. When I picked up the plans, I talked with them for about 30 mins, and learned a lot.

I personally don’t see why a civil engineer has to draw the site plan unless the site plan has to have a PE stamp. Sometimes the words ‘engineer’ and ‘engineering’ are misused and/or misunderstood. I could see the planning department wanting an ‘engineering’ drawing, meaning it to be a technical drawing with accurate technical detail. In terms of setback, I would think that would be more in line with what a surveyor does. When I think of civil engineer, I think of structural load calculations. The water flow is a common sense thing to me. I put the garage on the high side of the property with the door opening downhill, so the tendency would not be for water to go in the building.

Unless the planning department requires a PE stamped drawing for setbacks, I’d try to slide by with a drawing that you create, unless of course you have something unique that requires that level of expertise.

 

[Borntoolate]

You just need a civil Engineer with common sense and a good dose of reality and what is needed to get the job done. Someone who knows what is important and what is a nice to have, good to have and or MUST must have.

Also be aware that an Engineer has to put his official stamp on a design. This is not like a politician or Joe Blow off the street who can give advice but not put his name, reputation and credibility on the line. They have to sign off as if sworn to tell the truth and nothing but the truth etc...

So they have to balance code requirements, common sense, actual hands on experience if they have any... with the real world and the litigious world.

These type folks in the engineering field can be hard to come by. Trust me, I are one.

 

[speedracerfx]

Oh hey, look at all the other know it alls with chips on their shoulders.

Most engineers do what it takes to do it right, not what it takes to get a permit. Some things are over kill, some things can come back and karma your wazoo.

Not in my case. $4k to send me a plan for an infiltration ditch. That's it. No site visit. He was going to view the property on Google maps, size the infiltration ditch for the proposed impervious area being added, and submit the plan to the township. Nothing else was included. Bare minimum work at a premium price, IMO.

LOL, I would love to see the “poorly hand drawn stormwater management sketch”. Please post.

Ask an ye shall receive. Enjoy the laugh you'll get from this, and you WILL laugh at it. But this saved me $9k ($4k for the engineer and a good $5-6K to build an infiltration ditch that would require me to excavate 1/3rd of my backyard). The township code official sent it out to an engineering firm for review and their reply was "This is an interesting approach. The numbers all work so we hereby approve the design."

 

[jonshonda]

Wow!

As a mechanical engineer I hope your stated expectations are limited to the civil discipline.

I am a mechanical engineer with a sense of humor, and that seems to be a rare quality in my field (case in point).