What to Offer (workbench and vise)?

[Terra Nova]

I’m still trying to figure out how just because A vise is made out of forged steel it has more clamping power all this time I thought clamping power was determined by the thread on the spindle.

According to statistics a forged vice can be around 80.000 psi and a cast iron(weaker structure vice of same size) is about 1/3 less clamping power rating.Yes,it is possible to crack a vise.

What he was getting at was your statement: "Forged steel is loads better than cast.Has more clamping power". Just because a vise is made of forged steel does not automatically mean it has higher clamp load. That comes down to the design of the vise.

 

[Geezer]

What he was getting at was your statement: "Forged steel is loads better than cast.Has more clamping power". Just because a vise is made of forged steel does not automatically mean it has higher clamp load. That comes down to the design of the vise.

According to the manufacturers specs is where the numbers come from.But this thread seems to be a bit off base now anyway.Everybody can argue at the manufacturers for giviving out false information I suppose.Maybe the makers didnt get their learnings from youtube or the internet gurus. Lol

 

[killahog]

$100 sounds like plenty , what else are they selling.

 

[Terra Nova]

According to the manufacturers specs is where the numbers come from.But this thread seems to be a bit off base now anyway.Everybody can argue at the manufacturers for giviving out false information I suppose.Maybe the makers didnt get their learnings from youtube or the internet gurus. Lol

What numbers are you talking about? You quoted material strength (80,000 psi) but strength of material does not dictate the clamp load, that comes down to the design. A cast vise can have the same or more ability to generate and withstand clamp load than a forged steel vise (it'll just weigh more...) depending on what it was designed to do.

 

[Geezer]

What numbers are you talking about? You quoted material strength (80,000 psi) but strength of material does not dictate the clamp load, that comes down to the design. A cast vise can have the same or more ability to generate and withstand clamp load than a forged steel vise (it'll just weigh more...) depending on what it was designed to do.

Read my prior statements.The info is the makers specs.Talk to them if you do not understand is all I can say. It is their information.Again,your argument is with them.And I believe them.Everyone else is free to disagree with their engineers.Clampload= 80.000 psi. vs a cast iron vise that can handle a clamp load of something less than half this.So a forge steel vise is stronger and can handle higher clamp force pressures before breaking.

 

[zendriver]

There are some truly cheap people on this forum. If you think you could replace that for $100 your crazy. $200 seems fair. If I was selling it and somebody lowballed me I'd let them watch as the bulk garbage pick up truck dumped it into its crusher. I've done that before and I'll unquestionably do it again. It was such fun hearing them being outraged as I told them to shove it up their ***.

If You state "make me a reasonable offer" they make you an offer you don't think is reasonable, you tell them to get bent and trash the item just for spite?

I stand by my original comment, for obvious reason.

It's a used vise mounted to a used workbench.

If the combo has "x" value, then that's what they should be asking for it.

 

[Terra Nova]

According to statistics a forged vice can be around 80.000 psi and a cast iron(weaker structure vice of same size) is about 1/3 less clamping power rating.Yes,it is possible to crack a vise.

Read my prior statements.The info is the makers specs.Talk to them if you do not understand is all I can say. It is their information.Again,your argument is with them.And I believe them.Everyone else is free to disagree with their engineers.Clampload= 80.000 psi.

Perhaps you can tell me what manufacturer specs you are talking about? I read through your posts and the top one is the only one I can find mentioning anything about specs. Or even the mention of a manufacturer. I'm not arguing I'm honestly curious to understand.

psi is a unit of pressure NOT a load or force measurement. Clamp force would be in lbf, Newtons, etc. psi is also used for stress, 80,000 is the stress (force/unit area) that a material can withstand before permanent deformation begins.

 

[Geezer]

Perhaps you can tell me what manufacturer specs you are talking about? I read through your posts and the top one is the only one I can find mentioning anything about specs. Or even the mention of a manufacturer. I'm honestly curious to understand.

psi is a unit of pressure NOT a load or force measurement. Clamp force would be in lbf, Newtons, etc. psi is also used for stress, 80,000 is the stress (force/unit area) that a material can withstand before permanent deformation begins.

The forge vise can withstand clamp force,since a vise is a clamp,for example of 80000 psi before cracking,breaking splittibg itself in half...whatever.Its a measure of the strength of that steel tool that it can withstand before damaging itself. Don't know hardly any way else to explain it. Put a piece of hard steel in the vise and maybe put a cheater pipe on the handle of the vise and torque it down to 80,000 psi pressure and see if the vise will break. Forged steel is stronger than cast iron. You run forged connecting rods in a engine or a forged crank because it can withstand higher pressures before failure. A forged vise can withstand higher clamping pressures because it is forged the steel is harder and stronger.The maker says 80000 psi tensile strength.Ask them...https://www.rolledalloys.com/technical-resources/blog/how-to-measure-tensile-strength-elastic-modulus-and-ductility

 

[Terra Nova]

The forge vise can withstand clamp force,since a vise is a clamp,for example of 80000 psi before cracking,breaking splittibg itself in half...whatever.Its a measure of the strength of that steel tool that it can withstand before damaging itself. Don't know hardly any way else to explain it. Put a piece of hard steel in the vise and maybe put a cheater pipe on the handle of the vise and torque it down to 80,000 psi pressure and see if the vise will break. Forged steel is stronger than cast iron. You run forged connecting rods in a engine or a forged crank because it can withstand higher pressures before failure. A forged vise can withstand higher clamping pressures because it is forged the steel is harder and stronger.The maker says 80000 pounds pressure psi.Ask them

Oh I understand, I was just trying to get you to understand what you're saying...

Yes, forged steel is stronger that cast iron, no one here is arguing that with you. But to conclude that a forged vise can generate and withstand higher clamp load than a cast iron vice simply because it's forged steel is quite silly.

Either material could be used to build a vise to withstand higher loads than the other, the cast iron vise will simply need to be larger than an equivalent forged steel vise.

 

[shawhite]

The forge vise can withstand clamp force,since a vise is a clamp,for example of 80000 psi before cracking,breaking splittibg itself in half...whatever.Its a measure of the strength of that steel tool that it can withstand before damaging itself. Don't know hardly any way else to explain it. Put a piece of hard steel in the vise and maybe put a cheater pipe on the handle of the vise and torque it down to 80,000 psi pressure and see if the vise will break. Forged steel is stronger than cast iron. You run forged connecting rods in a engine or a forged crank because it can withstand higher pressures before failure. A forged vise can withstand higher clamping pressures because it is forged the steel is harder and stronger.The maker says 80000 psi tensile strength.Ask them

Pretty sure most vises have a safety of sorts built in way before you get close to splitting a vise in half. Usually the bar bends first then either the spindle breaks or strips. It makes no difference what the vise is made out of because you will never reach the max strength of the vise before something else breaks. The clamping force comes from the spindle thread chosen by the mfg (fine, corse, acme, etc). I know a lot of you guys swear by forged vises and hey great go buy a capri. But why would Wilton, yost Milwaukee and now jason at fireball settle on ductile iron if forged steel was so superior to make a vise out of? I mean Wilton has only been making vises for close to 80 years what do they know.

 

[Geezer]

Oh I understand, I was just trying to get you to understand what you're saying...

Yes, forged steel is stronger that cast iron, no one here is arguing that with you. But to conclude that a forged vise can generate and withstand higher clamp load than a cast iron vice simply because it's forged steel is quite silly.

Either material could be used to build a vise to withstand higher loads than the other, the cast iron vise will simply need to be larger than an equivalent forged steel vise.

A forged vise is made to withdtand higher clamp pressures than a comparable sized cast iron vise. I believe it goes without saying that if a cast iron vise is a whole lot larger than a forged device then that cast iron vise would be stronger than that forged one. I thought common sense would tell anyone that.So...if one takes a 6" forged vise and a 6" cast iron vise....the forged one would be stronger. Wow.

 

[Geezer]

.

 

[Geezer]

Pretty sure most vises have a safety of sorts built in way before you get close to splitting a vise in half. Usually the bar bends first then either the spindle breaks or strips. It makes no difference what the vise is made out of because you will never reach the max strength of the vise before something else breaks. The clamping force comes from the spindle thread chosen by the mfg (fine, corse, acme, etc). I know a lot of you guys swear by forged vises and hey great go buy a capri. But why would Wilton, yost Milwaukee and now jason at fireball settle on ductile iron if forged steel was so superior to make a vise out of? I mean Wilton has only been making vises for close to 80 years what do they know.

.

 

[Geezer]

delete

 

[dnschmidt]

If You state "make me a reasonable offer" they make you an offer you don't think is reasonable, you tell them to get bent and trash the item just for spite?

I stand by my original comment, for obvious reason.

It's a used vise mounted to a used workbench.

If the combo has "x" value, then that's what they should be asking for it.

As Frank and Sammy once sang "I've got to be me."

 

[Geezer]

Pretty sure most vises have a safety of sorts built in way before you get close to splitting a vise in half. Usually the bar bends first then either the spindle breaks or strips. It makes no difference what the vise is made out of because you will never reach the max strength of the vise before something else breaks. The clamping force comes from the spindle thread chosen by the mfg (fine, corse, acme, etc). I know a lot of you guys swear by forged vises and hey great go buy a capri. But why would Wilton, yost Milwaukee and now jason at fireball settle on ductile iron if forged steel was so superior to make a vise out of? I mean Wilton has only been making vises for close to 80 years what do they know.

I'll get right on asking them why they think the Wilton vises they build are any good....especially those ''chinesium'' made ones.lol But they do know it costs more to build a better widget.From a practical standpoint,the average user doesn't need the better or best tool.He just likes to think he owns one.The sales dept really likes that.

 

[Metallitubby]

Fair enough, but what does he think They need to have? The price might have come up in discussion When the sale is being planned.

This is a conversation that will need to be had, most likely tomorrow.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Hell, they're downsizing, I'd offer them $20, but tell them you'll go up to $50. I bet they take it. Remember - they're not looking at this as "collectable gold" but "**** they need to clear out". More than likely they were willing to drop this in the dipsy dumpster for scrap... most places would.

I've seen stuff being cleared out for a business either doing a remod that would make people here cry, but remember, THEY'RE not from here, they're running a business, never heard of TGJ, and they look at it as junk. Which to most people, honestly, it is.

Keep your offer in line with the thought they would rather get something rather than nothing. And don't tip your hand.

 

[2oolhound]

$50 if I could use it, $100 if I really wanted it, $150 if I needed a workbench ASAP.
.

Since you need it I agree with $100. It ceases to be a deal for you and more of a favor for them after that.

 

[619DioFan]

That's another thing. I do need a workbench and vise, hence my interest in the combo. I think I won't go any higher than $150 at this point.

Not sure if you scored this yet but since you need a bench and vise , what would it cost you make one ( bench ) this size and add a vise ? plus your time, here you just haul it home and done. something to consider.

 

[Geezer]

Or wait for them to dumpster it and go dumpster diving.lol

 

[Walkers]

The universal answer to everything is 42, so offer them $42. The worst they could say is no. Well I guess they could say ‘No, and you are fired’, but that is another discussion.
I have one of those vises. It is better than a lot of stuff, but is no Wilton Tradesman. Mine has been sitting in my shop loft unused for the last 15 years waiting to be given away. As soon as my son gets out of school and gets a place of his own I’ll drag it down for him.

 

[pelletman]

If that is a good cabinet, which I think it is, and the size and setup works for you $200 and even maybe more isn't out of the question. Reasonable is anywhere around 100

 

[Metallitubby]

Not sure if you scored this yet but since you need a bench and vise , what would it cost you make one ( bench ) this size and add a vise ? plus your time, here you just haul it home and done. something to consider.

Probably very similar cost on the bench, but I'd end up overthinking the vise and spending a ton on it. The main reason I am interested in this specific one is the opportunity arose, and it would end up helping my employer in the short-term as well (yes, I'm a company man).

I see it as one of those "I need one, and there's one available" moments in life.

Or wait for them to dumpster it and go dumpster diving.lol

I posted this in another thread, but at my employer if you are caught in the dumpster, you will be escorted off the property and relieved of your duties.

 

[Geezer]

Probably very similar cost on the bench, but I'd end up overthinking the vise and spending a ton on it. The main reason I am interested in this specific one is the opportunity arose, and it would end up helping my employer in the short-term as well (yes, I'm a company man).

I see it as one of those "I need one, and there's one available" moments in life.

I posted this in another thread, but at my employer if you are caught in the dumpster, you will be escorted off the property and relieved of your duties.

The one that came up with that policy needs his wallet taken and throw it in the dumpster! Or these days more likely a affirmative action female employee flexing her gender muscles.lol

 

[M635_Guy]

Probably very similar cost on the bench, but I'd end up overthinking the vise and spending a ton on it. The main reason I am interested in this specific one is the opportunity arose, and it would end up helping my employer in the short-term as well (yes, I'm a company man).

They haven't responded yet? Apologies if I missed it, but how much did you (decide to) offer? I honestly think it's strange that there's a sorta-negotiation process going on here. How are they going to accept/record the revenue??

 

[Metallitubby]

They haven't responded yet? Apologies if I missed it, but how much did you (decide to) offer? I honestly think it's strange that there's a sorta-negotiation process going on here. How are they going to accept/record the revenue??

The manager is on vacation. There is no negotiation process per se. I just need to offer something that makes it look like the manager did his due diligence, which I agree should be around $100. I will be paying by check to "Honda".

At Honda, every manager has a list of items under their control as assets. This manager has hundreds of items that he needs checked off his list, and where the items went. He could very well just put the bench/vise as being destroyed/trashed, but that wouldn't be the honest thing to do, and to someone else's point, it won't be destroyed if it's not purchased. It will continue to collect dust until it is either a) sold, or b) donated to a charitable cause (or vocational school).

 

[M635_Guy]

The manager is on vacation. There is no negotiation process per se. I just need to offer something that makes it look like the manager did his due diligence, which I agree should be around $100. I will be paying by check to "Honda".

At Honda, every manager has a list of items under their control as assets. This manager has hundreds of items that he needs checked off his list, and where the items went. He could very well just put the bench/vise as being destroyed/trashed, but that wouldn't be the honest thing to do, and to someone else's point, it won't be destroyed if it's not purchased. It will continue to collect dust until it is either a) sold, or b) donated to a charitable cause (or vocational school).

That's cool - most large companies seem to struggle to take money like that. As far as the number, it just seems like it's a weird/strange burden to put on you. Too low and it seems like you're ripping them off, too high and you're donating to your company - lol. It would be easier if he'd at least give you some idea where the "due diligence" number is.

Anyway, let us know the outcome

 

[Metallitubby]

It would be easier if he'd at least give you some idea where the "due diligence" number is.

He knows that I'll do the correct thing and offer what I think is reasonable, hence my question to the brain-trust that is GJ. I learned that not all Wilton vises are created equal, and that the bench top is actually considered decent for most circumstances.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Okay, I'm throwing my hat in @ $125.00 cuz no one else has!

 

[Terra Nova]

I posted this in another thread, but at my employer if you are caught in the dumpster, you will be escorted off the property and relieved of your duties.

The one that came up with that policy needs his wallet taken and throw it in the dumpster! Or these days more likely a affirmative action female employee flexing her gender muscles.lol

That's not an uncommon policy in the automotive world, especially on the development side of things for a couple reasons.

1) The company doesn't want the liability of prototype/non-production parts ending up on personally owned vehicles out on the streets. We have had prototype parts end up on eBay that someone pulled from the scrap yard. Now we have to destroy certain parts before they get scrapped.

2) Kinda goes along with #1, it creates a conflict of interest for employees. Someone wants something so they "scrap" it, only to later pull it out of the dumpster for their own use.

Not saying the above happens or they are good reasons but it's the corporate mindset. Just like my pocket knife is a "weapon" at work, but I'm free to carry the company supplied folding box cutter...

 

[Metallitubby]

Okay, I'm throwing my hat in @ $125.00 cuz no one else has!

It'd be funny if the manager counters with this.

 

[LXCam]

The vise comments kill me. How many of you nay sayers have even owned that vise? I’ve had that exact same vise and worked off it for close to 20yrs. I’ll agree it sure isn’t wilton’s finest offering by any means but for a home gamer it’s pretty decent. And all though I have on occasion gotten greedy enough to get it to twist and let loose, I haven’t broken it yet. I’ll also add there’s no way in hell you’ll ever be able to put enough pressure to that vise mounted on that bench to reach an oh **** moment

A hundy for that entire set up is a damn good deal.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I would've offered $100. That's right in the sweet spot.

 

[Mallen]

This is not true. Nearly all vises are made of some form of cast iron, even high end Wilton's. Whether they use grey/gray, white, ductile or some other alloy, it's still cast iron. I doubt most people would consider big old Reed, Parker, Starrett or Morgan vises as "light duty."

Some vises are forged steel, like the Heuer vises from Germany, but that's not the standard.

While ductile iron sometimes has various things that help it form it's speroidial structure, it's more of a process than a substance.

 

[Mallen]

For the most part, cheaper vises are made from grey cast iron while more expensive ones are ductile iron. It's more a process and a heat treatment than a material but they can change the composition of the iron and add things to it to help them produce the desired modular structure.

The maximum clamping force is ultimately limited by how much pressure the vise takes before breaking.
Some vise manufacturers actually promote the fact that the handle is made to bend prior to the jaws breaking.

 

[Metallitubby]

I would've offered $100. That's right in the sweet spot.

The manager and I still haven't talked about the final number. He's not back from his vacation yet, and our company/division is going through a bunch of internal changes right now.

It will most likely happen next week though.

 

[zendriver]

deleted

 

[Metallitubby]

Update:

I was able to wait until the very last week of shop/warehouse clean-up and I acquired the workbench/vise for free. I didn't plan it this way, but with my racing schedule and work projects, I just ended up in a good spot.

Next is to make an offer on one of the four hydraulic presses, Snap-On sand-blaster, and narrow flammables cabinet.

 

[will335i]

Honestly glad you got it for free. With larger companies physical assets are depreciated over an accepted period for the given assets. It is very likely these tools only have "scrap" value left on their books. Managers can be good "company men/women" and collect that value but the corporate finance folks likely don't give two shits about some old tools.

We pull out and replace old equipment all the time and if it is fully depreciated its fair game. First one that claims it gets it.