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what US tool companies make low quality?

1982fxr

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Are there any that are generally accepted as low overall quality....like who?

And I don't mean "craftsman *****, s-o *****" etc etc, I mean companies that have been around awhile and historically don't put out high or even mid-level quality.

thanks
 
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shoturtle

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stanley is pretty low in their quality on their consumer grade tool, not the fax max but their basic stuff. So are some of the crescent stuff.
 

fivespdcat

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I honestly don't care much for the newer Klein drivers. Some guys swear by them, but I find the tips soft and they **** to warranty.
 
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1982fxr

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I agree, I guess I should clarify.....I mean made in USA tools that are ****. I'm working on a website list and I don't want to pretend that JUST because it's made here, it is great quality, though overall I think most of what is still made here is kick ***.

Like I've heard mention of **** US made screwdrivers for one...
 

yasha32

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Some J tools available for transmissions (4l60e has a plastic one) that just straight up ****.
 

vintagefan

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I think are few that make outright ****, but there are definitely some that leave a bit to be desired... I've got a couple:

Lisle, their bit sockets often come broached off center, and I've gotten a couple that had cracks right out of the package. They also are very cost effective, and seem to be reasonably durable when you get a good set.

Martin, they make various wrenches as well as other tools. They seem to be durable, but the finishing on some I've seen has been just plain bad, especially considering they're not particularly cheap. For instance, their angle wrenches are quite good, but their combo wrenches are just plain fugly.

Armstrong, Most of their tools are good quality, but the new quasi-chrome that they're using leaves a lot to be desired IMO. Also, their USA made ratcheting wrenches seem to have some of the worst overall QC in the industry. Numerous complaints about sticky action, self reversing, jamming, etc. The broaching on the open end generally is not impressive from what I've seen, either.
 

jjjrmx5

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I think the question youa re asking it somewhat of a misleading one in my opinion.

If you are looking at US based tool companies, then quite a few have sent production offshore or to Asia since Nafta and before, but the US made products still standing high in quality of mfg.

If youa re looking at US based tool companies that still make US prdoucts that have lowered thier quality to the point that cost and offshoring is necessary, then ther are a varitey.

But--what it really comes down to is those companies like Apex, Danaher, etc. that supply and mfgr. tools for third parties that deem it no longer feasible to make tools here in the US competitively and thus tell thier clients the same.

It is just business, but lowering the quality of a product just to mnfgr it in the US to the point of value engineering it to its base is an uncompetitive and loosing battle just the same.

So, to answer your question, just take a stroll thru your local HD, Lowes, mom and pop and professioanl/industrial/graiger supplier and tell me what you see.

This sounds like a lazy man's question to an answer he already knows or want to believe he already has knows but really is not savvy enough to do the legwork on.

I know the answer, but I **** at doing other people's homework for them.
:)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

All in all, I see it more in the grocery business like cheese, crackers, poultry (injected with brine-wtf), paper products and macaroni and flour based products.

Tools are too easy to send to Asia once they hit the diminsihing quality mfg v. quality pricepoint.
No news here.

As Sears as done, one quarter you can ***** about the USA made quality and next quarter it's made in Taiwan or PROC.
 
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fivespdcat

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Oh yeah and those stupid riveted sheet metal craftsman pliers/cutters. I'm not sure if they still make them, but those really sucked.
 

shoturtle

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I agree, I guess I should clarify.....I mean made in USA tools that are ****. I'm working on a website list and I don't want to pretend that JUST because it's made here, it is great quality, though overall I think most of what is still made here is kick ***.

Like I've heard mention of **** US made screwdrivers for one...

I figure, but stanley has some made in the USA screwdrivers that are pretty low quality. My brother brought a set, I looked at them tried them out and told him to return them. Told him to spend couple of dollars more to get the basic craftmen instead. But stronger tips.

And I have to agree the last crescent wrench I got from work was pretty bad, it auto open all the time. And it is made in the USA.
 

yasha32

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Stanley flatheads you can grind a notch into making a slight hook. This creates a snap ring remover that kicks ***. That is why stanley is on my positive list; other flatheads have just broken clean off when being used.
 
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1982fxr

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I think the question youa re asking it somewhat of a misleading one in my opinion.

If you are looking at US based tool companies, then quite a few have sent production offshore or to Asia since Nafta and before, but the US made products still standing high in quality of mfg.

If youa re looking at US based tool companies that still make US prdoucts that have lowered thier quality to the point that cost and offshoring is necessary, then ther are a varitey.

But--what it really comes down to is those companies like Apex, Danaher, etc. that supply and mfgr. tools for third parties that deem it no longer feasible to make tools here in the US competitively and thus tell thier clients the same.

It is just business, but lowering the quality of a product just to mnfgr it in the US to the point of value engineering it to its base is an uncompetitive and loosing battle just the same.

So, to answer your question, just take a stroll thru your local HD, Lowes, mom and pop and professioanl/industrial/graiger supplier and tell me what you see.

This sounds like a lazy man's question to an answer he already knows or want to believe he already has knows but really is not savvy enough to do the legwork on.

I know the answer, but I **** at doing other people's homework for them.
:)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

All in all, I see it more in the grocery business like cheese, crackers, poultry (injected with brine-wtf), paper products and macaroni and flour based products.

Tools are too easy to send to Asia once they hit the diminsihing quality mfg v. quality pricepoint.
No news here.

As Sears as done, one quarter you can ***** about the USA made quality and next quarter it's made in Taiwan or PROC.

No, what I've got going is a list and the basis of it is pro-US made tools. Apex, stanley/B and D, kmart craftsman are all going to basically get **** talked about them. Along with the big boxes and how they do business, forcing US manufacturing overseas -----please no arguments on this, as my website=my point of view---just sayin'.

Also there will be full acknowledgement that other countries make awesome tools too.

What I'm not sure on though, is who makes crappy US made tools, and if i should include them, ignore them, etc etc. 1 thing i won't do is act as though every single tool with USA stamped on it is good, and every company that manufactures in the US is good. We all know that is not true.
 

vintagefan

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No disrespect intended, but I think you may be overthinking this one a little bit.

I think the question is simply: What tools that are manufactured in the USA are of low quality?

Snap-On chrome looks the same.

Not from my experience. It isn't as bright silver as Wright or SK, but it's not full-on grey nickel like the Apex stuff, from what I've personally had in my hands at least.

I'm a bit bummed, because I just resold a bunch of Armstrong stuff to a coworker, and I have Snap-on, Wright, and SK here that I could have done a 4-way comparison shot with.

I think the difference between Snap-on and Wright/SK may be a trivalent vs. hexavalent thing, whereas Apex is Chrome vs. Nickel... that's speculation, but it's the best guess I can give to explain the differences.
 
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Skin

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Not from my experience. It isn't as bright silver as Wright or SK, but it's not full-on grey nickel like the Apex stuff, from what I've personally had in my hands at least.

I'm a bit bummed, because I just resold a bunch of Armstrong stuff to a coworker, and I have Snap-on, Wright, and SK here that I could have done a 4-way comparison shot with.

If you havent bought anything recently you wouldnt have noticed it but Snap-Ons most recent offerings are indeed using a dark chrome that looks exactly like Armstrongs'.

On the left there are some very recent production Snap-On wrenches. You'll notice the smallest one at the bottom looks different because thats a few years older when they still had a brighter chrome, now it looks the same as the Armstrong stuff. Those are Armstrong made Cman Pros on the right for comparison.

 
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fivespdcat

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Well if you're going to gripe about big box stores. I hate that you can buy tools there, but if they need to be warrantied they just stare at you like your nuts...
 
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1982fxr

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I should add, I'm not talking the truck brands, or Wright, Armstrong, Proto, Williams, Klein, etc etc.

I'm looking for bottom of the barrel so that I know who it is......cause at this point I don't.
 

shoturtle

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Well if you're going to gripe about big box stores. I hate that you can buy tools there, but if they need to be warrantied they just stare at you like your nuts...

Lowes is not bad with their warranty, at the service country they have a box just for warranty tool items as simple as sears. HD is lacking though.
 
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vintagefan

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If you havent bought anything recently you wouldnt have noticed it but Snap-Ons most recent offerings are indeed using a dark chrome that looks exactly like Armstrongs'.

Oh, well that's rather stinky. The only thing I've bought recently have been a couple pairs of pliers, but they are bare steel.

The Snap-on I have here is at least a couple years old.

I remember a post I read while lurking here a while ago, that actually gave a link to Danaher admitting that they had switched to a nickel finish, calling it "briteguard" or something of that sort.


edit: I saw your edit with the picture. I saw something similar in the Armstrong I had as well, I had some older "craftsman pro" style Armstrong combos that still had bright silver chrome, and the newer Armstrong ratcheting combos had the grey stuff.
 
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Ritter4.0

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USA made Kobalt from Danaher flat out sucked. I have some long hex bit sockets that are pressed in crooked, and don't fit the fastener well. If you want pictures, I can get them. The China made Danaher Thru Socket set has great bit sockets in it, all fit well and are pressed in straight.
 

Dahammer72

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I honestly don't care much for the newer Klein drivers. Some guys swear by them, but I find the tips soft and they **** to warranty.

Isn't that the truth. It's a shame really. The Klein name use to be synonymous with quality, especially with electricians. I finally gave up on them and turned to German drivers because of the soft, easily stripped, tips.
 

vintagefan

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Isn't that the truth. It's a shame really. The Klein name use to be synonymous with quality, especially with electricians. I finally gave up on them and turned to German drivers because of the soft, easily stripped, tips.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that they're full blown low quality, but they certainly aren't up to modern standards IMO. I like some of their pliers for nostalgia's sake, but if I'm being honest with myself, my Knipex blow them out of the water.
 

shoturtle

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Only the kline pilers are still good quality. I made the switch form kline to german as well because their ph kept camming out. I only kept the kline pilers.
 

jjjrmx5

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No disrespect intended, but I think you may be overthinking this one a little bit.

I think the question is simply: What tools that are manufactured in the USA are of low quality?

No disrespect taken here. :)

All I mean and mentioned in my above post is that , right now, tool mfgr. is a "moveable feast".

And by that I mean that at one point a US made tool may be on the verge of being offshored, and then 1 or 3 months later moved. By the time it's noted, it's gone. Sadly, it's not going the other way in most cases so there is not musch use in documenting it except as an excercise in history.

I like the idea of a database but to me it;s going in the wrong direction. Just like C'man slimline and RP ratchets.

I applaud the effort, but everytime I spend time in a tool aisle it's a chore to hunt down teh US COO stuff let alone vett it on quality.

Thus why this quest eludes me. I can't think of a USA COO tool that has pissed me off in the last half decade. Hmmmm......

EDIT:

I did buy a set of Made in USA Kobalt chrome hex bit socket years ago and snaped one of the larger sized off on the first use. Took them back and got a new set and went on to buy a higher quality brand. Meanwhile it's 5 years later and the Koblat bits still sit there unused to this day. Made in USA. Too pretty and sucky to use.

i'd say they **** and are US made but as we all know, Kobalts are now all made in Asia so it's a useless point. :)
 
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wreckerman5357

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Snap-On chrome looks the same.

If you havent bought anything recently you wouldnt have noticed it but Snap-Ons most recent offerings are indeed using a dark chrome that looks exactly like Armstrongs'.

On the left there are some very recent production Snap-On wrenches. You'll notice the smallest one at the bottom looks different because thats a few years older when they still had a brighter chrome, now it looks the same as the Armstrong stuff. Those are Armstrong made Cman Pros on the right for comparison.


Maybe I'm just lucky but the chrome on all my Snap-On stuff is the ****. Real bright and high quality looking, their stuff has always impressed me in that aspect. The only problems I have ever had with Snap-On is their apparent inability to get the head of a body hammer on straight. Has always pissed me off a little bit that I pay $70 for a hammer and they can't put the head on straight.

Don't think I'm calling anyone out or anything, I'm just surprised other people are having problems with their Chrome.
 

vintagefan

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Maybe I'm just lucky but the chrome on all my Snap-On stuff is the ****. Real bright and high quality looking, their stuff has always impressed me in that aspect. The only problems I have ever had with Snap-On is their apparent inability to get the head of a body hammer on straight. Has always pissed me off a little bit that I pay $70 for a hammer and they can't put the head on straight.

Don't think I'm calling anyone out or anything, I'm just surprised other people are having problems with their Chrome.

Well, I can say that Skin's post has me curious enough to order a new wrench from Snap-on, and take some pictures next to the new and old Armstrong I sold to my coworker, as well as my Wright and SK, and my old snap-on.

I know almost with 100% certainty that Apex is now using Nickel, but I can't imagine that Snap-on would be too. I've read that Trivalent Chrome is more greyish than Hexavalent, but not as grey as nickel.
 

Skin

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Maybe I'm just lucky but the chrome on all my Snap-On stuff is the ****. Real bright and high quality looking, their stuff has always impressed me in that aspect. The only problems I have ever had with Snap-On is their apparent inability to get the head of a body hammer on straight. Has always pissed me off a little bit that I pay $70 for a hammer and they can't put the head on straight.

Don't think I'm calling anyone out or anything, I'm just surprised other people are having problems with their Chrome.

Just to clarify i'm not having any problem with the finish. Just merely commenting that the recent production stuff is very dark in luster as opposed to just a few years ago when it was bright. Of the truck tools only Cornwell and MAC are still making a bright cosmetic chrome that im aware of.

Well, I can say that Skin's post has me curious enough to order a new wrench from Snap-on, and take some pictures next to the new and old Armstrong I sold to my coworker, as well as my Wright and SK, and my old snap-on.

I know almost with 100% certainty that Apex is now using Nickel, but I can't imagine that Snap-on would be too. I've read that Trivalent Chrome is more greyish than Hexavalent, but not as grey as nickel.

I believe Snap-On dropped the tripple plated chrome, now its just a nickel chrome finish which i was under the assumption was what Armstrong was doing. They certainly can still produce a bright chrome if they want to though as evident by the most recent release of the Cman Premium ratchets. By the way i own a lot of Armstrong produced Cman wrenches, i know exactly the dark finish you speak of, the Snap-On stuff i've gotten most recently looks nearly identical. Nothing wrong with that, nothing is having any problems [Snap-On or Cman], just cosmetically they look the same.
 
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1982fxr

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well I'll be real happy if I'm wrong and there are no bottom of the barrel producers here! But that seems like wishful thinking to me.

and yes, i realize anyone who didn't care about quality in the first place was probably on the first ship to china, lol. I just want to learn as much as I can.
 

vintagefan

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Just to clarify i'm not having any problem with the finish. Just merely commenting that the recent production stuff is very dark in luster as opposed to just a few years ago when it was bright. Of the truck tools only Cornwell and MAC are still making a bright cosmetic chrome that im aware of.

I wonder if I could find a plating shop that could provide a sample part each of Hexavalent chrome, Trivalent chrome, and Nickel. It would be really interesting to compare them to various tools that are in question regarding the finish.
 

fivespdcat

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I wonder if I could find a plating shop that could provide a sample part each of Hexavalent chrome, Trivalent chrome, and Nickel. It would be really interesting to compare them to various tools that are in question regarding the finish.

Good luck finding any new hex chrome, it's been banned due to the heavy metals....
 

vintagefan

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Good luck finding any new hex chrome, it's been banned due to the heavy metals....

There are still some job shops that offer true Hex chrome, but it's expensive due to very heavy regulations. Valley plating in City of Commerce, CA is one, I've used them before.

The only other way to explain the difference between Snap-on and Wright/SK is that they may use Trivalent with different brighteners, or no brighteners.

New SK sockets have poor chrome and broaching issues.

I haven't seen any evidence that the sockets currently being sold are "new SK".

In fact, the SK that I've purchased as old stock, has had bad pieces here and there, and the pieces that SK sent as replacement were superb.
 

geologist

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WISS - i bought a pair of universal snips and the stampings were light and skewed. The snips cut fine (so it didn't hinder functionality) but it's not what I would expect from Wiss.

ARMSTRONG - still a decent tool, but some of their wrenches are starting to get CCS (crab claw syndrome). The chrome leaves something to be desired, but that's probably largely due to new EPA regulations on chroming.

CRAFTSMAN - some broaching issues regarding the alignment of ratchet internals relative to the head of the ratchet (I noticed this on a refurb 3/8" RP ratchet while in a local store). Also, the stampings on RP wrenches are light on some wrenches which is hindering visibility (this is becoming quite common). The ratchet was a China POS but the wrenches were US made.

New SK sockets have poor chrome and broaching issues.

The poor chrome problem is becoming industry wide, thanks to the EPA.
 

wreckerman5357

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Just to clarify i'm not having any problem with the finish. Just merely commenting that the recent production stuff is very dark in luster as opposed to just a few years ago when it was bright. Of the truck tools only Cornwell and MAC are still making a bright cosmetic chrome that im aware of.



I believe Snap-On dropped the tripple plated chrome, now its just a nickel chrome finish which i was under the assumption was what Armstrong was doing. They certainly can still produce a bright chrome if they want to though as evident by the most recent release of the Cman Premium ratchets. By the way i own a lot of Armstrong produced Cman wrenches, i know exactly the dark finish you speak of, the Snap-On stuff i've gotten most recently looks nearly identical. Nothing wrong with that, nothing is having any problems [Snap-On or Cman], just cosmetically they look the same.

Interesting stuff, I wonder if Chrome changes are a result of environmental regulations or the bottom line. Could be both I guess. Frankly as long as the stuff stays on my tools and keeps them from rusting. It is nice to get something really nicely finished though, makes a guy feel like he got his money's worth.
 
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1982fxr

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how do you know you're talking to the most ******** tool junkies on the planet?

You start a thread trying to find out who the low quality US tool producers are, and it turns into a thread about snap on's chrome! lol

All great discussion here, hope that doesn't make anyone mad, just a little joke.
 

vintagefan

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Interesting stuff, I wonder if Chrome changes are a result of environmental regulations or the bottom line. Could be both I guess. Frankly as long as the stuff stays on my tools and keeps them from rusting. It is nice to get something really nicely finished though, makes a guy feel like he got his money's worth.

I used to do a good bit of chroming at an old job, but it was before the regulations hit really hard, so I'm not really up to date. From what I've heard, there was a big rush in the industry to get trivalent processes ready in time to beat the EPA regulations.

Appearance wise, Hex chrome is the bright silver we think of when we hear chrome. It's still done, as far as I know, on SK and Wright, and many Chinese tools (due to lack of regulation I presume). There are still many shops that do it in the USA, but they're primarily for hot rods, etc., where the added cost isn't as much of an issue.

Trivalent chrome is less lustrous, and has a bit more grey tint to it. Evidently they use chemical brighteners to attempt to make Trivalent chrome appear closer to Hex chrome.

Nickel is different altogether, the only particular thing in common being that it's a plated finish, and it's silver-ish looking.

So, here's my guesses combined with what facts I know about chrome in general:

Hexavalent Chrome: Bright white silver (aka blue chrome), Wright, SK, New China made Craftsman

Trivalent chrome: Greyish silver (aka Nickel chrome, I assume this nickname came about because of its similarity in appearance to nickel plating), Snap-on?

Nickel: Dark grey silver (in comparison to hex chrome), Armstrong, old Cman




I have some contacts at a plating place I used to use, I'm going to give a ring tomorrow and see if I can get some confirmed information rather than my pieced together speculation.
 
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1982fxr

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Interesting stuff, I wonder if Chrome changes are a result of environmental regulations or the bottom line. Could be both I guess. Frankly as long as the stuff stays on my tools and keeps them from rusting. It is nice to get something really nicely finished though, makes a guy feel like he got his money's worth.

I have no idea, BUT I can tell you one thing, even if the chrome changes were strictly bottom line based, everyone would be blaming the epa. I've tried looking for some substantiation to the claim that tool producers don't set up shop here anymore because of the epa, and have found nothing but empty claims. The couple people in manufacturing I mentioned this to said the epa wasn't to blame, it's just the want for that cheap labor.
 

MastoidPress

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I've tried looking for some substantiation to the claim that tool producers don't set up shop here anymore because of the epa, and have found nothing but empty claims. The couple people in manufacturing I mentioned this to said the epa wasn't to blame, it's just the want for that cheap labor.

Tell that to the steel makers who are forced to shut down their plants, because they can't afford the ridiculous 'upgrades' required by the EPA...and yes they are ridiculous. No one likes breathing polluted air, however if you put into perspective where pollution levels were, at the turn of the century, to where they are now, you will see how greatly air quality has improved...and how much progress we have made, to the point where we could relax our standards a bit if we wanted to. You are not going to rid the atmosphere of carbon. In an industrialized country, thats not going to happen. So with that knowledge then, do we really need enviro-police running around bullying manufacturers out of exisitience?? I don't think so.

Sadly the public, including the person I am replying to, are horribly naieve about how much power the EPA has and how many lives they have destroyed. It's one thing to want clean air and water, it's another thing to blindly trust some government agency to provide it for you, without knowing the science and the data (along with a little historical perspective) and then based on that, try to make an informed decision.

Newsflash folks! Compared to China, our air and water pollution is virtually non-existient...yet where are all the American protesters in China??? There no where to be found! Where are all the politicians denouncing Chinas manufacturing processes?? There no where to be found! Its easy to push around American companies, but where are all the GREEN police in China where the REAL pollution is happening?? That right there tells me that the whole 'green movement' is one big scam.

EPA is nothing more than a bully who has grown overweight and bloated by stealing from others and there day is coming sooner than most people think.
 
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