What's wrong with this arbor press?

[7th Kahuna]

I posted this yesterday in an arbor press thread and thought I might try it on its own as well.

I have been looking locally for an old arbor press for a while now without much luck. One has recently come to auction. It's an 'as is' sale and I won't be able to test drive it before bidding. I was moderately excited until I took a closer look. Note how the collar on the arm is misaligned with the collar on the body. My first concern was broken or missing teeth but that wouldn't necessarily result in the arm dropping down. Maybe a missing or severely worn bushing?

Any one have any idea what's going on there? I have never had one apart, or even used one for that matter, so I have no idea if I'm bidding on an arbor press, an expensive restoration project, or a boat anchor. I'd like to know what I'm in for before I commit myself. Honestly, it's larger than I need but for the right price... I could always trade down later. yeah, right.

I would also appreciate anyone's thoughts on what it might be worth in it's current state. It appears to be missing the sizing plate but comes with a nice stand. I've had one suggestion of $200, I figured maybe $300 if it weren't being sold 'as is'.

Thanks

 

[king nero]

that's an awful lot of money for an arbor press...
some useful info in this thread:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174241

 

[7th Kahuna]

that's an awful lot of money for an arbor press...
some useful info in this thread:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174241

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I agree, it seems like a lot and I honestly wouldn't pay that much but I'm starting to get the impression arbor presses are a bit like anvils and bench vises. If it's old and heavy, it's not going cheap in the mainstream market.

 

[zkling]

^ Very true. A good arbor press is usually not cheap. Think of them as like a drill press without a spindle. When you purchase one, you want to look at the rack and pinon gear on the ram. Any cracked or missing teeth show that it has been abused. Even a bent handle would cause caution as someone probably put a cheater pipe on it to really get some force into it. Unless the PO was a strong man competitor.

As for the offset on the one in the picture. What COULD have happened is that if it got ALOT of use the pinion could have wallowed out the bore in the casting and it is just resting at the bottom of the bore, as it sits.

I am not familiar with the Champion presses, but I would guess it is probably a 3ton unit. It looks just like my 3ton greenerd press. Usually companies gave a model number based on the pressure the press puts out (No.3 = 3 ton).

As for the price. I would definitely like to look at it in person, which unfortunately you say you can't do. Also depending on the stand it came with. Some of the original manufacture stands are worth a pretty penny to some folks. As is on an original stand I would probably go $200, but I would really like to look at it in person.

 

[Steevo]

If it has replaceable bushings for that shaft, it is probably easily rebuildable.

It also looks like the vertical press shaft itself may be installed upside down. It may be an optical illusion of the photos, but the teeth appear to slope the wrong way for downward pressure

 

[MFolks]

Most good arbor presses have adjustable gibs to control the wear on the bushings. What range of pressure are you after? A hydraulic type might be the type you'll need. I believe Panavise used to make some of the lower rated arbor presses years ago.

 

[7th Kahuna]

I am not familiar with the Champion presses, but I would guess it is probably a 3ton unit. It looks just like my 3ton greenerd press. Usually companies gave a model number based on the pressure the press puts out (No.3 = 3 ton).

As for the price. I would definitely like to look at it in person, which unfortunately you say you can't do. Also depending on the stand it came with. Some of the original manufacture stands are worth a pretty penny to some folks. As is on an original stand I would probably go $200, but I would really like to look at it in person.

I have assumed 3 ton as well. I haven't been able to turn up any info on Champion presses as yet. The company seems to have been much better known for their early drill presses and forge blowers. The stand does appear to be original though there is not a good picture.

I would be a lot more comfortable if I could look at it first. If I buy it, I'll almost certainly see a better one next month, if I don't, I won't see one for a year . . .

 

[7th Kahuna]

If it has replaceable bushings for that shaft, it is probably easily rebuildable.

It also looks like the vertical press shaft itself may be installed upside down. It may be an optical illusion of the photos, but the teeth appear to slope the wrong way for downward pressure

Hey Steevo,

Yeah, I was hoping someone might have first hand experience with the innards. I don't mind replacing existing bushings, but if the bore needs to be drilled out and bushings installed, that's beyond me right now.

You know, I was looking at those teeth too. I sure hope its an optical illusion. I suppose it could have been used for spreading instead of pressing?!

 

[7th Kahuna]

Most good arbor presses have adjustable gibs to control the wear on the bushings. What range of pressure are you after? A hydraulic type might be the type you'll need. I believe Panavise used to make some of the lower rated arbor presses years ago.

I'm really not that familiar with them. Would older presses have had adjustable gibs? As to what I need, I certainly don't need 3 tons. I'm looking at pressing bearings on and off motor arbors and other lighter weight machinery. Down the road, it might find some use in automotive work. I just would prefer to pick up an older rather than newer press and would also like to have a bit more room in the 'throat' than is found in the smaller 1 ton presses I see around. I would be concerned that the hydraulic presses just don't provide enough 'feedback' to be used safely with lighter weight parts. I'll look into the Panavise line. I'm familiar with the name but not the product.

 

[zkling]

That looks 99% similar to my greenerd NO.3

The ram is not upside down, the curved portion is always on the bottom of the ram. I think the gear teeth are an illusion, almost all pressure rated gear teeth are symetric. If you look at the last photo they look symmetric. I think it is just a combination of camera angle and reflection.

My press does not have bushings inside of the pinion bore. I doubt that one does either.

Gibs, usually only apply to larger presses or square ram presses.

You always want a bigger arbor press than you need. Not only for pressure but ram height and throat size. That should be about 6.5" or the center of a 12" wheel.

 

[justanengineer]

I would guess that the bore in the base either wasnt bored concentric to the casting boss or a "wallered out oval" worn bore was re-bored with little regard to keeping the old and new bore centerlines concentric, thus a bigger round hole slightly lower in the casting. Either way not sure I'd be concerned unless its loose. On my lil Famco the bore is noticably not concentric to the casting boss, but its not nearly as bad as that one.

Irregardless, I wouldnt touch that for more than $100, and only if you absolutely needed one for a paying job at that. Usually you can get the larger ratcheting arbor presses for <$200.

 

[darkk]

No bottom plate and that cross shaft looks like it might not even be the correct one. I'd pass....

 

[WWIIjeep]

I would also appreciate anyone's thoughts on what it might be worth in it's current state. It appears to be missing the sizing plate but comes with a nice stand. I've had one suggestion of $200, I figured maybe $300 if it weren't being sold 'as is'.

If (and only if) the "nice stand" is factory or OEM, $200 could be a bargain, just for the stand. If anyone doesn't believe that, price a new arbor press stand from Dake or Famco or Greenerd (the three remaining USA arbor press manufacturers). Most small bench-style arbor presses like the one in question don't come with stands. Bench mounting can be OK, but an OEM stand is even better.

I'd guess that Champion-branded press was either made by Greenerd for Champion, or made by Champion under license from Greenerd.

The apparent misalignment of the pinon is probably normal for that particular press. Take a look at page 3 of the Greenerd catalog and you'll see the same misalignment on the image of their 3-ton arbor press:

http://www.greenerd.com/uploads/literature-pdfs/ArborCatalog.pdf?title=Arbor+Presses

Regarding the comments about ratcheting or compound leverage presses, while they are certainly more desirable, you generally don't find 3-ton arbor presses of the size in question in that form. Smaller presses like that are almost always simple-leverage, especially the older small presses.

Honestly, it's larger than I need but for the right price... I could always trade down later. yeah, right.

The photos I see just show the upper section of the press, so assuming it's a basic 3-ton size, the height capacity is probably 12" or a little less. In that case, it's not "larger than (you) need" it's the bare minimum useful size. If the height capacity is more than 12" then it's even better.

The missing daisy wheel (press plate) is certainly a factor, but not necessarily a deal killer IMO. A lot of people don't bother with them most of the time (which is also why a lot of them end up missing). It depends on what you're working on; sometimes a pair of parallels on the press base is better than using the daisy wheel anyway. Given a choice between having a factory stand (if indeed that's what it has), or having the daisy wheel, I'd take the factory stand. No doubt about it. If it's important or necessary for you, a replacement plate can be bought or made.

 

[Farmall450]

Well, if you get it, I can't foresee it ever breaking.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Thanks guys for all the input. I learned some new terminology which I am thankful for as well. Yes I'm pretty sure its a 12". The stand may be newer than the press but definitely seems to have been made for it and is too nice to have realistically been a one off home made item under the circumstances. It is narrow and designed to be bolted to the floor, making it particularly nice for a small shop.

It is interesting how similar it looks to the Greenerd 3. Thanks for linking the catalog. I now have some general idea how much it might weigh.

So we'll see. I had talked myself out of it, now maybe back into it. Just have to see where the bidding goes. The sale isn't for a couple days yet.

Also, for anyone looking, the swivel plates are apparently available online from 7 Rivers Surplus. (Thanks chrenan)



[EDIT] I just found a picture of a very nearly identical stand but under a Dake

 

[7th Kahuna]

Auction ended today. The price topped out at $197.45 just short of the $200 mark suggested by several members here. I dropped out early. I had to consider that it was probably $60 in gas away and was missing the swivel plate. Guess I'll be keeping my eyes open for the next deal. Thanks to everyone for the help.