What's your ROI?

[LennyTheLizard]

After talking to my contractor today, I'm on the fence about whether to pay him to do metal ceiling or wait it out until I can do it myself. I consider myself jack of all trades / master of none. But I have a bad habit of trying to do too many things at once, and taking too long to complete projects.

So the way I figure it, I value my time at $20 / hour. So if a job takes me 20 hours + tool rental / purchase, etc. I estimate that's what it costs me to do it. If someone I trust can do it cheaper than that, maybe I should just hire it out.

How do you guys decide to Contract out or DIY?

Contractor wants to charge me ~$900 labor to hang 2400 sq. ft. of tin on 12' ceiling. I think I can do it cheaper, but I don't have lifts, and would need a couple guys to help me (probably have to pay). Or I can come home at the end of the week and have a finished ceiling for $900 (assuming price of material is the same either way.

What do you guys think?

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'm not going to pay somebody to do something I can do.

Either way, you're paying for the materials, maybe more if he marks them up. Spend a lttle time and do it yourself, what else can you do in your garage for the $900 that you saved ?

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I can only mention the same thing I told my younger boy: Do most of the work yourself, especially the jobs that you enjoy, and the ones that need your personal attention..... Pick one or two jobs that you are not equipped to do, or do not enjoy doing; and hire those jobs out.... For Him, that was the drywall finishing.... He hates the dust...

 

[koditten]

You just need 1 skilled (you) and a couple of strong teenagers. That work ***** ***, but you doing it yourself will be much more satisfying. This is the route I went, the only difference is I was hanging osb.

Whatever way you go, we hope for some pics.

 

[Falcon67]

Lots of things figure into that. For me it's a "just depends" kinda thing. We're looking at a new front door - $600~1000 range. I would not pay someone to install it as could R&R in a day. But the $4000 quote to replace 8 aluminum windows with new super good custom vinyl including installation - get 'em out here. Install adds $175ish per window but they are done with the whole house in a day. And I'm not keen on extracting the aluminum shells from behind the brickwork.

However, I wouldn't really think about paying someone to gut the kitchen and install new cabinets. It's pretty skitzo, I guess.

 

[Steevo]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[tdkkart]

You'll need scaffolding, a screw gun, and at least one helper, PLUS it's NOT easy work. How long are the pieces?? They're not light, all the work is overhead, and it's WARM up there. Wanna guess how many times you'll have to climb up and down that scaffolding?? Here's a clue, LOTS OF TIMES.
2400 sqft is alot of steel, over 4 times what we put up on my ceiling 4 years ago.
$900 labor is CHEAP.

 

[justanengineer]

I dont do the work I do bc Im a cheap SOB, I do it bc I enjoy it. If I reach a day when I dont enjoy it anymore I will stop doing it.

 

[LennyTheLizard]

I used to hang a lot of drywall with my step dad. We charged $.10 / sq. ft. to hang only - no finishing. Granted drywall is probably a lot easier than this steel, but they're 20' sheets so when you put one up you're covering a lot of ground.

Contractor is charging $.38 / sq. ft. I'm guessing with 2 helpers, I could put up at least 2 sheets per hour (maybe more) = 20 hours + rental of scaffolding.
I'm guessing the contractor is going to use 4 guys and be done in 1 day.

I know I'm not going to enjoy this work - but I am a cheap SOB.

 

[Mike Miller]

Money replaices time at my age so if I just don't want to do the job, I hire somebody.

 

[budl]

I'm getting more selfish with my time as I age so, for me, I would pay someone to do the ceiling while I play with my hot rod.

My wife made a good point a few years ago when I was on a ladder with a chain saw trimming limbs. She said "How are you going to do your regular job after you fall off the ladder and cut your leg off with the saw?"

Bud

 

[darkk]

My wife made a good point a few years ago when I was on a ladder with a chain saw trimming limbs. She said "How are you going to do your regular job after you fall off the ladder and cut your leg off with the saw?"
Bud

That was a subtle threat........come spend time with me instead or I'll cut your leg off with that saw, so you had no choice. hahahaha....

 

[The Boss]

There is a reason we don't drill our own teeth or cut our own hair (although some of you may). Do what you are best at and sub out the rest.

Don't forget that time is money and a quality job (read trade not weekender completed) holds a higher value.

 

[JimVonBaden]

If $900 is a week's wages, and it DESTROYS eighty hours of leisure time, you're a week behind.

If the $900 isn't precious to you, hire the job out.
It took me many years to value my leisure time.

Same here. I paid about $3800 to do 1400 sq ft of patio, labor only, in pavers. But had I done it myself, it would have taken me months of backbreaking weekend and after work time. The price for a pro team to do it was well worth it.

On the other hand, I did all the drywall finish work, paint and laid the VCT in my garage, and that was worth it too.

Jim

 

[Al Bundy]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

^This.

 

[Big-Foot]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

With you all the way here Steevo...

Money replaices time at my age so if I just don't want to do the job, I hire somebody.

There's nothing I can't do, just some things that I have not yet done and some things that I just don't want to do...

And to the posters that feel that the tradesmen all do quality work... Ahem... I have found that many of them do slip-shod work just good enough to get by. Quality has little to do with it.. It's get-in, get-paid, get-out.. NEXT?

Case in point - I had some basement rework done because the insurance company was paying for it. Framing up a few interior walls, insulating and then sheet-rock. They used their air nailers for everything. Honestly - they blew two out of every three studs apart while toe-nailing them.. When I asked the contractor about it his only response was "It's a non load bearing interior wall, once the sheetrock is up, no one will notice and the wall will be just fine."...
I fired them and finished the job myself. Being a bit **** (geeze really?) I only use my pneumatic nailers for trim work. The rest of it is mostly screwed together with pilot holes being drilled first. Sometimes glued and screwed.. Takes me a lot longer, but the walls are strong and the job is done RIGHT (by my way of thinking)... Surely if I wanted the contractor to work like I do, I would have to pay the price. I would be willing to pay the price for a quality job, just that few are actually willing to go that extra 5 miles..

 

[jimindm]

I think that your ROI should be the time considered enjoying your new finished ceiling. Not going out there the next few weeks and seeing what is ahead of you.

Tires are an easy comparison. Can you mount a tire. Many of us can. A tire maul, a few bars and you have what it takes. How many like so spend the afternoon mounting a set of tires, when the local shop could have it done in an hour. You have the rest of the afternoon to do as you please.

I would say the biggest thing is to know your limits. When you do something your self the only person you have to make happy is yourself. Will the finished product look like you did it your self? Will you get half done and say I can live with that. The last few sheets to hang and you just want it done so you cut a few corners. Or you learn as you go. The last few cutouts look way better than the first few you done.

I see this from time to time, more often than not. Some one has a many of these little projects started, but very few are actually finished. The material is piled out back or in the corner. Nothing is ever actually done.

I have enjoyed reading this board over time and seeing and doing many of the projects. Having said that just because I own a tape measure and a skill saw does not make me a contractor. Just because I own mud pan and a few knives does not make me a drywaller. I am an auto tech/shop owner. When I come across rust, broken bolts, loose deflectors, etc I think I know the best way to get the best results. It is what I do and what I get paid to do. I have been in the business many years and have seen alot of it and deal with it and move on.

I have many freinds that I trade work out with. I would call them professionels at what they do. They think that of me also. We always laugh, and say that a professionel can work through his mistakes or deal with what ever surprises come up of doing the job. As we help each other do these projects, it kind of funny when we catch each other in one of those moments. More often than not, mine is the head of a bolt instead of the whole bolt.

In the end, I would just say know your limits and, know your time schedule and plan accordingly. ROI is so much more than just the monetary value. If that includes getting the check book out, and sipping on an ice tea watching others do your task, so be it.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Tires are an easy comparison. Can you mount a tire. Many of us can. A tire maul, a few bars and you have what it takes. How many like so spend the afternoon mounting a set of tires, when the local shop could have it done in an hour. You have the rest of the afternoon to do as you please.

/off topic
For car tires this is generally true. For motorcycle tires, no so much. MC shops rarely can swap out tires while you wait, and often the shop is far from your house. I like that I can swap out both my MC tires in about an hour, and that I can do it on my schedule not theirs.

/on topic

Generally true for the rest of your post.

Jim

 

[Angelfire]

I agree with SteeveO completely.

Another way I look at it is just how good a job do I expect? If I can live with work done by others that isn't perfect, then I will usually hire it out. If it's finish type work etc.... and I want it to look perfect, I do it myself.

I'm in the throes of building the shop and an addition on the home. I didn't go with the low bidders on any of it (framing, concrete, roofing, drywall) and all I can say is people don't take pride in their work anymore. I've had to stay on these guys like stink on **** to make sure I'm getting a quality product. Consequently, I had considered hiring out some of the finish work but am now doing it all myself. So just how important is it to have the metal ceiling look perfect to you?

 

[Stuart in MN]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Well put.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I think I can do it cheaper, but I don't have lifts, and would need a couple guys to help me (probably have to pay).

You can do it cheaper..and why it takes you longer is A) your not as used to it, and B) You do it correctly. Just because you pay a pro, doesnt mean it will be done perfectly. Its rare I see a job done to my specs (yup I'm OCD)...so my time is "free"....last time I checked I dont get paid to watch TV.

I'm not going to pay somebody to do something I can do.

Either way, you're paying for the materials, maybe more if he marks them up. Spend a lttle time and do it yourself, what else can you do in your garage for the $900 that you saved ?

I'm with you NUTTSGT...Refuse to pay people to do anything. Materials end up cheaper, labor is free, etc... Sheetrocking my garage as an example...I got some 54"x12' 1/2" sheetrock for 3.00 a sheet...would a contractor passed the savings onto me? Probably not...same with my insulation...they were clearancing out the old prickly stuff and replacing it with the new soft insulation...got it for 50-75% off...doubutful contractor would have passed that onto me, plus they wouldnt have done as nice a job to install it. Sure my garage would be all insulated and sheathed weeks ago vs me just puttering around with it. But my checkbook is a tad heavier today and whats done is done to my satisfaction.

 

[Modifieddriver]

My Dad worked for the Post Office. He would never consider hiring someone to do a job. Said he couldn't afford it and he (really meaning we) could DIY and save. If there was something the house needed he'd see some pros doing a job like he needed done on his mail route. He would watch and ask the pro about how to do the job.

Several cases in point, a roofer, a septic tank installer, a painter, an electrician, concrete installers, etc, etc.. So, I remember being up on the roof of the house, digging for a septic tank, pouring concrete and finishing it. You get the picture here?

His real talent was being an expert auto body repairman and a mechanic. Work he did before the Post Office. I reflect back at all he did and now question his approach to his "do it all" approach.

He should've taken on automotive repair work jobs on the side to raise the cash to then pay the pros to roof the house, install the septic, etc., etc.. He was already educated at automotive work, was good at it and didn't mind the work.

So, after watching and participating in the "do it all" approach, I figured out that I'll stick with the "stuff" I know to generate the $dough$ to pay the pro to do those things I'm not comfortable doing.

And like was already said here, if I'm up on the roof, fall off and break an arm or leg (maybe my neck), have I saved anything? AND the roof is done in a single day with the pro and his crew. It would take me weeks to get it done.

Another thing to remember. Paying the pros is cheaper than hiring a divorce attorney.

Also, if the pro doesn't do it right , you hold up payment until he fixes it.

 

[crazytrain]

I like to do most of the work around my house myself. I enjoy the feeling of being able to sit back and say I did it. Plus I don't normally like to pay someone to something I can do.

Plus I'm poor and usually can't afford to pay someone to do it for me.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I like to do most of the work around my house myself. I enjoy the feeling of being able to sit back and say I did it. Plus I don't normally like to pay someone to something I can do.

Plus I'm poor and usually can't afford to pay someone to do it for me.

Its not just being "poor" although with a stay @ home wife/mom I get what your saying totally, you can get a whole lot more for your money DIY...My neighbor quoted out a garage this fall (Garage Envy)...and his garage will fit inside mine and cost him 2x more. And from the sounds of it, materials will be not as high quality as mine. Not bragging, but just sayin...

You ask me what I'd rather have...huge garage with Blood Sweat & Tears invested or small tiny garage with not even the slightest scratch on your index finger? So sure, I could have had a 20x24 built for me or some other tiny thing and sat on my front porch and watched it go up...but my 30x50 is SOOOOO much nicer.

 

[Toomanytools?]

...So the way I figure it, I value my time at $20 / hour. So if a job takes me 20 hours + tool rental / purchase, etc. I estimate that's what it costs me to do it. If someone I trust can do it cheaper than that, maybe I should just hire it out.

How do you guys decide to Contract out or DIY?

Contractor wants to charge me ~$900 labor to hang 2400 sq. ft. of tin on 12' ceiling. I think I can do it cheaper, but I don't have lifts, and would need a couple guys to help me (probably have to pay). Or I can come home at the end of the week and have a finished ceiling for $900 (assuming price of material is the same either way.

What do you guys think?

Well I'm like most here DIY, being a contractor I do most all my own stuff. Heck if I could have done my own Knee surgery I would have done that too. That said you have $400 of your labor figured in and at least $100 bucks for a lift, not to mention time to pickup and return stuff. If you do get a few helpers you are either buying beer or lunch. So your up to $500-600 bucks for 300 more get the contractor in to do it.

 

[socapots]

Built or bought is always a question.
Personally I pay for convenience. If its more convenient to pay someone to spend more of my time doing something more important to me I will.
When it really comes down to it. Most people are capable of doing most anything. After that it all comes down to time and quality of work.
Some people build. Some people buy. Some are a combination of both.
All comes down to what you want for you.

Socapots

 

[rburke65]

I just finished installing my metal ceiling liner over the Christmas holidays. For starters, I am a 'jack of all trades' and an electrician by trade. I have 13'-5" ceilings, which are/will be great for my lift, but.......them ceilings are a long way up there. Cost....let's talk cost. I bought a TSC scaffold thinking I could reach the ceilings with a 6' step ladder atop, but soon realized that I could not. And if I purchased another scaffold, then the mfg. recommend theta you buy out riggers......another $100. So I found 2 ten foot step ladders on CL that I bought for $150. They were a great buy. My buddy and I started to install the metal liner working off the ladders....we are both 64 yo. At the end of day one, we had a row and a half up in a 56' x32' shop......maybe 80'. His back was killing him, and I wasn't real happy with some of the alignment on the panels....12' long by the way. I decided to rent a drywall lift and the second attempt went a lot better. Trust me, there is a learning curve. I rented the lift for $35 a day but it was over the holiday and I told them that I wanted the biggest bang for my buck since Sundays there were closed, Mon., and Tues. were Christmas eve and Christmas day. I got it for 8 days for 4 days rental. And with the lift I made better progress with only myself than I did with the buddy.....he not real tool friendly. It was a long week....I'm glad I did it myself, but it will be the last ceiling that I put up. AND the drywall lift was worth it's weight in gold! A real joy and well worth the money. That's my story...and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Kev442]

I used my four post lift to install my ceiling. Put it on movers dollies and plywood and bracing down the center. It felt a little wiggly, but I was soon convinced I could practically do cartwheels on it and it wasn't going to tip over or something. Now,that felt great two ways. It was like having a giant scaffolding to make the job easy and safe, and I got extra brownie points in justifying a four post in the first place.

 

[power wagon]

i like to do things myself, i like to save a buck but also i like to take pride in doing for myself

 

[Charles (in GA)]

After talking to my contractor today, I'm on the fence about whether to pay him to do metal ceiling or wait it out until I can do it myself. I consider myself jack of all trades / master of none. But I have a bad habit of trying to do too many things at once, and taking too long to complete projects.

So the way I figure it, I value my time at $20 / hour. So if a job takes me 20 hours + tool rental / purchase, etc. I estimate that's what it costs me to do it. If someone I trust can do it cheaper than that, maybe I should just hire it out.

How do you guys decide to Contract out or DIY?

Contractor wants to charge me ~$900 labor to hang 2400 sq. ft. of tin on 12' ceiling. I think I can do it cheaper, but I don't have lifts, and would need a couple guys to help me (probably have to pay). Or I can come home at the end of the week and have a finished ceiling for $900 (assuming price of material is the same either way.

What do you guys think?

The contractor's labor includes helpers and lifts. Have you tried renting a man lift lately? Even if you go with scaffolding on wheels, you will need helpers pushing it around, handing you sections, holding one end of those sections, etc. Other issue is that it really needs to be done while the building is empty. If you finish the building and send the contractor away, and start piling your stuff in there, it becomes several times more difficult and time consuming to do the job, meaning the rental on that lift or scaffolding and those helpers will cost more and more.

Quite frankly, ceiling work is hard, its high up, overhead and very difficult to get it just right. If you have a reliable contractor I'd seriously look at having him do it.

Charles

 

[LennyTheLizard]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I agree with many of the points on here and will probably hire the contractor. I was hoping to get some good motivation to make this decision, and I did. This wasn't only a question for this project, but in general, when do you decide that your time is more valuable spent somewhere else and just hire out.

I'm not one to do things half-assed, but I'm not a perfectionist either. In this case, I'm not worried about the contractor's quality. They are building the rest of the shop, and I am completely satisfied so far.

It'll sting thinking of all the things I could have bought for $900, but I have given myself so many projects, I must cut something loose.

 

[RKA]

Pretty much agree with many of the others. I enjoy DIYing things, but whether I should or shouldn't usually involves a series of considerations.

Money
Sure, I like to save some money, and frankly, farming everything out costs waaaay too much.


Time
There is only 24 hours in a day and I've always got a backlog of projects. I've come to terms with the fact that I can not do everything. I'm slow and methodical, so that doesn't help when things need to be done quickly. At the end of the day my family and my job come first...DIYing everything takes a back seat.


Quality of Work
This can go one of two ways. I hate farming things out because I can usually do it better myself. But in some cases, doing something I've never done before, I can easily do it worse.

Endangering Myself
It sounds stupid, but I'll consider the likelihood of hurting myself or the possibility of serious injury. If I hurt myself, not only will it cost me a lot of time and money to get better, it won't be easy for me to go to work either. My day job is more precious that $ saved DIYing anything at home since the day job obviously pays the bills.

Sandy dropped a number of large trees on my property. I've never handled a chainsaw before. At the end of all the deliberation was a shiny new chainsaw. I spent 5-6 afternoons and probably saved about $4K in treework. I took it slow and careful and was the only homeowner around using a pair of safety chaps (along with the other gear). My neighbor helped me with a few tricky cuts when I got in over my head. I called it quits when it came time to take one or both feet off the ground to make cuts, where I couldn't get solid footing to work or things were hung up in such a way that I could find myself on the wrong side of physics. It's just not worth getting hurt to save a few bucks, leave it to the pros. But all the trees I did manage to dispose of...could be done just by following safe practices using the saw, and it saved me a good deal of money. Everything that's left requires someone that knows more than I do (to do it safely) and heavy equipment.

So it's a combinations of factors. But I'll be honest...if the math works out in such a way that I should farm it out...there is still an internal battle I have with myself. I'm trying to get better at letting go and paying someone else to do it. I don't want to look back in 30 years and evaluate what I did with my life and be left with a bunch of house and car projects, missing limbs and no memories of vacations or time spent with family.

 

[where2]

2400sq ft metal Ceiling finished for $900 labor? I'd be on that guys list already...

 

[ABADWILLYS]

I pride my self on being able to do most things, of course taught by my father who instilled to me his work ethic,.. and i do usually, i think it comes down to the job needed done like the fella who mentioned he dont like drywall work.. however.. i just got done hanging my 2400ft metal ceiling a month or 2 ago.
me and my 72 yr old father, no lift and a rickety aluminum scaffold, those panels are long and awkward.. in the end it came out nice but man,my elbow is still hurting me i dont know what i did to it.. ide pay the 900

 

[jlckmj]

That said you have $400 of your labor figured in and at least $100 bucks for a lift, not to mention time to pickup and return stuff. If you do get a few helpers you are either buying beer or lunch. So your up to $500-600 bucks for 300 more get the contractor in to do it.

what he said!

 

[PT Doc]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

This is very well put. Are you capable of doing a very good job with this? If not then you will have a headache. If you hire it out it will likely be done the first time and if not then you have someone to call back based on the warranty.

 

[911mike]

I used to do everything that I had the knowledge/ability/skills to do.
As I get older, I realize that if I want to have time to do the things I really want to do, I have to pay someone to do some of the things I could do, but would rather not do.
It is a balance. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I totally agree with Steevo with a twist. I don't know how many of you guys work a desk job 10-12 hours a day but I use my projects as exercise. I HATE working out anymore and sometimes I take on these PAIN in the *** projects just for the physical workout. I just huffed down my basement 50 sheets of drywall and hung it over the last month. It was WORK but I saved a few bucks and it was good for me. To me a 8 hour day of basement work is a better workout than a hour+ workout in the gym. I'm 51 and 15 years ago I thought differently but today it harder to stay in shape.

 

[sparky36000]

When I built my garage/shop, I debated on doing it myself. I've been working construction for the last 30 years and I think I am capable. But as I get older, my time is also valuable. So I had a contractor frame it and do all the exterior. Now I can spend the winter finishing the inside at my leisure. What took him 4 weeks to do would have taken me all summer and fall and eaten up my weekends that I like to hunt and fish. Like others have said, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I guess it depends on what you feel your free time is worth and if you actually want to do that particular project.

 

[Dan_inthewind]

We use to spend time to save money.

Now we spend money to save time.

I think Stevo hit the nail on the head.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I totally agree with Steevo with a twist. I don't know how many of you guys work a desk job 10-12 hours a day but I use my projects as exercise. I HATE working out anymore and sometimes I take on these PAIN in the *** projects just for the physical workout. I just huffed down my basement 50 sheets of drywall and hung it over the last month. It was WORK but I saved a few bucks and it was good for me. To me a 8 hour day of basement work is a better workout than a hour+ workout in the gym. I'm 51 and 15 years ago I thought differently but today it harder to stay in shape.

Interesting point!

I should use that as an excuse to spend more time in the garage!

Jim