OP
When hanging drywall... horizontal or vertical on walls?
- Thread starter 5mall5nail5
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Git the longest sheets that your suppliers sells and you can handle ! Hang them horizontally.
When re-doing my daughter's kitchen, we cut the sheets lengthwise so that the seams would be behind the lower cabinets and the upper cabinets. Tape and 1 coat of mud was "good enough" !
When re-doing my daughter's kitchen, we cut the sheets lengthwise so that the seams would be behind the lower cabinets and the upper cabinets. Tape and 1 coat of mud was "good enough" !
I did the same thing in our kitchen too...... but I fully taped the seams because I needed the practice for the rest of the room.
OP
5mall5nail5
Well-known member
I have a dodge 1500 with a 6.5' bed. What length do you think I can reasonably fit? 8' seems fine, 10'? 12'? I don't want the drywall to crack over the lowered tailgate edge.
benjamintmiller
Well-known member
You really want a drywall screwgun for this, and won't be able to appreciate one until you've used it. I like a Senco collated gun, but used screwguns go on Craigslist around here all the time for less than $50.
5mall5nail5 said:
5/8" drywall is generally type x (fire) drywall. That is what you want to use in a garage.
5mall5nail5 said:
With the tailgate down, you're at about 8 feet, so you should easily be able to handle 10' drywall. If you throw down some long 2x boards, you could move up to 16' with that truck, just throw some weight on the front end to keep it from tipping out.
Most lumberyards and drywall supply stores will deliver for a small fee, and it is worth it to avoid extra seams in your sheets.
Dave in Mass
Well-known member
You watch the youtube vids and watch the pros do it and they all thin the compound. Using it unthinned will tend to put more compound on the wall. If you watch a pro they do very little - I MEAN VERY LITTLE - sanding after first and second coat. If you do not put on excess you do not have to sand it off.
We interrupt the helpful information to bring you a spot of levity at my expense. When I was young and dumb in my first house, we had a room that we covered existing damaged walls with 3/8 in. For some reason I had a 5 gallon bucket of compound and my brother left after the drywal was hung with high level instructions to mud the joints.
I might have used 1/2 the bucket globbing that stuff on... Besides the stuff I spilled on the carpet, the mess from sanding was unbelievable.
Lesson learned and now I buy joint compund in little quart or 1/2 gallon tubs and after doing a room, I usually still have some left over for any future hole pathcing needs.
As for helpful tools or supplies, I will throw in a recommendation for the fairly small rectangulare mud "pans" for transferring drywall from orgnal bucket to the wall. They easily fit in your hand, you can fit your wide knife in there, and they have a nice sharp edge for scraping excess mud off the knife between scoops of mud applications.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
My drywall guy has been in the business for 40 years and comes very highly recommended by all around the county. He is busy every single day.
It is no easier for him going horizontally than it is vertically. It depends on the room size which way he runs his drywall. And for the comment of running it vertical is for the ones that don't know any better, I call B.S. on that. It sounds to me like you may have hung drywall once or twice, or was only showed one way to do it. When drywall came about, the beveled edge was designed to be run vertically and hit the studs on either 16" or 24" spacing. One reason according to my drywall guy for going horizontal, was that more area could be covered quicker by an individual doing it himself. The first piece went down to the floor, or spaced up with a couple of wood shims, then the piece above could rest on the lower sheet.
When it comes to compounding the joints, most of the time when you see them thin it out is when they are feathering the joints out on the second or third coat. Or when they are doing what appears to be thinning, they are mixing faster drying mud from a dry mix. My drywall guy uses Joint Compound out of a bucket for his first coat. Joint compound has a mild glue in it and binds the joints together. If he has a new bucket, he does not thin it, but he will mix it thoroughly. If it is a bucket that has been opened and used out of and maybe has set up a little over a brand new bucket, he may thin it some. The thickness does not have anything to do with how much gets put on a seam. The thickness depends on whether the individual is doing it correctly or not.
What he will thin a little is the Topping Compound. Topping is just what it says, it is for the top coat. It is a finer mix so it will not have pores in it and it is a whiter mix. Put Joint Compound and Topping Compound down the wall side by side and the Topping will be pure white and the Joint compound will be slightly yellowed.
As far as going horizontal when hanging the drywall, as I said above, when you have two **** seams, the drywall compound needs to be feathered out so you DON'T see a hump in the wall. But if you would run a long level or some sort of straightedge, there will always be a hump at the **** seam. My drywall guy may feather out **** seams 4' or so to get everything transitioned to a smooth looking wall. Also when he is compounding a room, no matter the size, it takes three days.
Day one is taping and using joint compound and a narrow knife. All he puts down is enough to embed the tape, whether it be fiberglass or paper. He prefers paper tape because it does not stretch and end up with cracks in a joint like you can with fiberglass mesh tape. If he does happen to use fiberglass mesh for some reason, all corners and the seam at the wall and ceiling are always paper tape.
Day two is to come in and lightly sand any place that may need it which is a rarity for him. Using care when first putting the tape and joint compound down on day one eliminates most if not all sanding. Day two involves a little wider trowel and still using joint compound. Just using enough to bring the beveled edges almost up to or at level.
Day three involves some sanding to insure there is no compound going out past the beveled edges and to also make sure it is slightly below being level. Day three also involves using the wide bladed trowel, or depending on the seams, if it is a **** seam with two ends when the sheets are put up horizontally, he will use a smooth concrete trowel, and he used Topping compound because it is white and has tighter pores than the joint compound. He spends more time making sure **** ends are feathered out and smooth. If he adds any water, it is to allow the compound to have a little more workable timeframe. This allows him to make sure that things are smooth to eliminate a lot of sanding.
Day four is sanding day. It doesn't take him a lot of time because he took steps previously to eliminate the sanding times which everyone hates.
So as far as people not knowing what they are doing when hanging drywall vertically, or saying that the drywall compound has to be thinned because you will put it on too thick if it isn't thinned, are not words coming from a drywall professional. My drywall guy has done everything from patching a hole in a wall to doing everything complete in million dollar homes. It's all he knows and all that he has ever done. I've had him do work on our house before, when he is also working on four other houses in the same day. He knows how to figure up the time and schedule things so that he has mainly his three day compounding work. Don't get me wrong though, if he is doing a whole house, that may be the only thing he works on for a few weeks. Most drywall compounding, he does solo, but when it comes to hanging drywall, he has a list of ones he's worked with before that he knows are the best of the pick. When we had the wifes Craft Shed done, he had two guys that did nothing but hang the drywall. The Shed is 20'x20'x8' ceilings in 16' of it and the other 4' was 6 foot ceiling height. Multiple lights and outlets in the ceiling, quite a few outlets around the walls, panel box in the wall. Two guys hanging it complete and trimming around all of the outlets and other boxes....they were in, cleaned up, and out in 4 hours. The Craft Shed has been completed for almost 7 years now and there is not one nail pop or crack at all.
rancherbill
Well-known member
My truck is a 1994 F-250. On the rear gate there are two cables. I have them most of the time in the regular position. For long loads I unhook the cables and put them in the alternate location. In the alternate location it raises the tailgate about 2", and thus the fulcrum is at 10' (8'box + 2' tailgate).
I have hauled a lot of 16' wood, 10' in the box and 6' overhang. It works well. I have never hauled big drywall, but if I had to I would buy 3 or 4 2x4s to put on the bottom and a stiffener. Drywall is floppy and I would be concerned about it cracking on the fulcrum and general drooping.
'If your Dodge has the same type of deal the fulcrum would end up at 8.5' (6.5 box and 2' tailgate) so 12' would work. If you had a bunch of items to weigh the drywall down eg boxes of mud, I might try 14' (8.5 in the box and 5.5' overhang) MAYBE. Drywall is so darn floppy.
I couldn't find a decent drywall screwgun for less than $75 or so - so.......
I just got the tips for a regular drill with a torque setting - worked out well - and a lot cheaper.
A package of 4 was less than $5 - good enough for one job - if I was doing more than just my garage, I would have spent the $$$ on a drywall gun.
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rslaback
Well-known member
No. He means one of these:
If you are using a roto tool then you do hang the sheets over the outlets. Before you hang the sheet, measure to the center of the box from the seams horizontally and vertically. Once the sheet is roughly up on the wall with a few screws, measure out on your sheet where the box is. Pop your tool through into the center of the box and move it until you have an outside edge. When you hit the edge, pull the tool out of the sheet a bit, slide over the thickness of the box and then reinsert. Find the edge of the box you just hopped over and then clockwise trace the outline of the box. The cutterhead has a nonfluted end which will serve as a pilot bearing during use.
Spudland_Dave
Well-known member
Gonna have to agree with Kevin on this one...funny how the sheets of drywall I bought were marked for VERTICAL installation with markings noting both 16" and 24" OC stud spacings. Wonder why a drywall MFG would mark sheets specifically for vertical installation?
http://www.nationalgypsum.com/products/product.aspx?page=GridMarXGypsumBoard
What I liked most about vertical installation was the ease for 1 guy...I had a 3/4" Piece of scrap wood placed along the floor...cut my 10' drywall sheet to length along with any box holes, stood it up on that scrap and just "flipped" it against the wall...grabbed my screw gun and voila...installed.
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rancherbill
Well-known member
I don't want to argue, but here's a different point of view. You have seen what you have seen and I have also. Just so we are talking the same thing I'll talk about standard 8' walls.
There is less taping horizontally. Secondly you can use long sheets that even make for less taping and a much better job. The third and most important reason is you get a straighter wall horizontally. Studs warp - from the factory during construction and after the drywall has been installed - it's a fact of life. Interior walls are stud grade not construction grade. going vertical will show every warped stud like crazy. Horizontally they will not show up as much. You have to live with the wall for decades, so you should do it right. Sight along a wall with light at the end and you will see what I am talking about.
Eight foot sheets are easy to work with, there is no doubt. I have done up to 16s myself on the walls. It is not hard if you are in shape and can lift 80#. I have done seiling up to 14" with my wife only holding/manipulating a tee, for 16s I had my 12 yo daughter give my wife a hand. I'm 60 and out of shape now, and my last drywall job I rented a lift. It was physically easier, but I found it slower. I did not use it on the wall.
On the walls, you place the sheet against the wall. You take drywall nails and push them into the drywall with your fingers on the stud locations. Then apply dabs of drywall glue to the studs in the middle of the drywall will be. Lift the sheet, wiggle to the right location and BANG BANG BANG the drywall nails. Then screw the top of the sheet AND the locations you have used drywall nails. Take your rotozip or whatever and cut the holes.
When I was younger, I almost started a p/t business just as a hobby several times, as I was desk bound all week and it was relaxing. The problem was renovators are low rollers and price board at the price **** joints like home depot. It is more expensive to get the larger sizes from a drywall wholesale and to get delivery and placement. I HATE Carrying drywall into basements. The quality versus price is lost on the low rollers.
Somebody mentioned the premarked drywall. It is only useful on exterior walls that have a vapor barrier and thus the drywall adhesive will not work. On interior walls is of no use!!! You put your initial nails and screws into the top plate of the wall and it is impossible to miss. The bottom screws go into the stud that is visible, for the second sheet the screw form the top sheet is showing and the bottom screw go into the bottom plate which is impossible to miss. Using adhesive ensures straighter walls and NO SCREW or nail pops and you don't have to fill and sand. All the screws are in the bevel top and bottom that is going to be filled anyway.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
I've hung hundreds of miles of drywall and for the most part it was hung horizontally. We get sheets up to 20' here so it's not too common to have vertical **** joints. Lay one four footer from floor. Then the next on top of it. If over 8 ft then the next sheet is cut to the ceiling edge. Finishing horizontal joints is easy. Vertical joins will nearly alway show if you shine a light along the wall. Just watch and see the shadows... Not good for a top quality paint job. JM2CW
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
I'm not trying to argue either, just pointing out what I have saw, done, and been taught. And don't get me wrong, I'm not against hanging drywall horizontally, but just pointing out the fact that with the drywall running vertical, you don't have to feather out the seams like you do when you have a lot of **** joints. As far as less taping and mudding, that is just incorrect. You have more mudding to do because of the **** joints because of feathering out farther and in fact, you have a few more feet of seams to do. Here is an example of an 8' tall wall with 8' drywall. Keep in mind the top is not counted in but the corners are.
As far as the argument that studs are not straight, I can buy that. But you mention that it will show on a vertical hung piece of drywall but not on a horizontal piece. I don't buy that. What happens if that warped stud is on a vertical but seam? now you really have to feather out your compound in all directions along with going below your horizontal seam to try and blend in that 4' area on a warped stud. And again, don't get me wrong, I'm not at all against hanging drywall horizontally and have done it on many occasions myself, but there is a little more work involved to get a nice straight wall than just slapping it up an mudding it. You are in for more mudding and more sanding than filling in tapered joints. That's my point.
Also, to get the wall smooth, you HAVE to feather out way farther than the tapered edges or you will have serious humps in the wall.
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alwaysFlOoReD
Well-known member
A tip for those small fixes after doing the majority of the mudding;
Use some food die mixed into in your mud so you can easily see where the fixes were put.
Richard
Use some food die mixed into in your mud so you can easily see where the fixes were put.
Richard
trainer
Well-known member
When you hang vertically, all your joints are tapered, so joint filling is easier for the average guy. I go horizontal only when the sheet is long enough to span an entire wall in one piece.
+1 on these things. A little bit slower than a dedicated screwgun, but it works every bit as good. Since you arent dragging a cord around, the time evens out. Don't get me wrong, I like buying power tools, but a drywall gun is one of those things that is pretty specialized and will rarely see the light of day unless you do drywall for a living.
+1 on these things. A little bit slower than a dedicated screwgun, but it works every bit as good. Since you arent dragging a cord around, the time evens out. Don't get me wrong, I like buying power tools, but a drywall gun is one of those things that is pretty specialized and will rarely see the light of day unless you do drywall for a living.
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rancherbill
Well-known member
Thanks for the well written thoughtful reply BUT....
Buried in my post, I have been saying get big drywall
I did not do the drawing but here is the description. For the top row use 2 x 16' (=32') drywall, for the lower row use 2 x 12' + 1 x 8' (=32'). You stakk have that same amount of bevel joint 32', but you only have 12' of **** joint. A small section of the upper row **** joint will have to be done on a ladder or whatever, the rest of the **** joint and all the bevel joint can be done from the floor.
So, horizontally there is 32' of bevel joint versus 72' vertically, bevel joint is quick. but you are up and down on a ladder way more. On the **** joints horizontally there is 12' of which 2' I have to use a ladder, the rest is from the floor. My total is 44', not 76', versus 72' for vertically.
OP
5mall5nail5
Well-known member
Thanks for all the help guys.
I picked up:
So, I realized two things - you should really have 2 people when hanging this stuff horizontally lol. Or, some sort of tool. Also, I probably should have cut it so that the ends of the drywall share a stud. Or, maybe not? Either way, if I punched the drywall at the end I will probably break the tape seam once taped and mudded. That said, I don't intend on punching the drywall. I need to run a piece of conduit out from the breaker box for a power run to the shed, once I do that tomorrow I will finish hanging this wall.
Drywall going up by Jon Kensy, on Flickr
I picked up:
- Corner knife
- 4" tape knife
- 6" mud knife
- 12" mud knife
- Green "all purpose" mud
- Drill mixed jobby
- Paper tape
- Coarse thread drywall screws
- Adapter to use my impact driver w/ drywall screws countersink
- 5/8" x 4' x 8' drywall (only size they had)
So, I realized two things - you should really have 2 people when hanging this stuff horizontally lol. Or, some sort of tool. Also, I probably should have cut it so that the ends of the drywall share a stud. Or, maybe not? Either way, if I punched the drywall at the end I will probably break the tape seam once taped and mudded. That said, I don't intend on punching the drywall. I need to run a piece of conduit out from the breaker box for a power run to the shed, once I do that tomorrow I will finish hanging this wall.
Drywall going up by Jon Kensy, on Flickr
Steevo
Well-known member
I leave it entirely to the professionals that I hire to hang drywall.
That said, the last two jobs I have had done (24x40 shop and three rooms in the house basement) they did them horizontally.
That said, the last two jobs I have had done (24x40 shop and three rooms in the house basement) they did them horizontally.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Kevin.
Only an amateur with NO experience would use short sheets on a long wall.
As I said, we get up to 20' sheets so vary rarely would ever have a vertical **** joint.
Maybe in the USA things are different???
Only an amateur with NO experience would use short sheets on a long wall.
As I said, we get up to 20' sheets so vary rarely would ever have a vertical **** joint.
Maybe in the USA things are different???
Stevie-Ray
Well-known member
I bought a package of those as well.
I've hung about 2 sheets worth of drywall and maybe triple that in durock, so take what I say with a heaping of salt. The drywall in both newly constructed homes appears to have been hung horizontally by the builder. I asked the builder once why they did it that way and he said it was faster.
As a DIYer, I 'm not concerned about faster but am more concerned with what will help me make the job look more professional. I have a feeling that if I were to hang vertically along a very long wall that my wall would end up looking wavy. I'd try to put those seams somewhere other than eye level.
As a DIYer, I 'm not concerned about faster but am more concerned with what will help me make the job look more professional. I have a feeling that if I were to hang vertically along a very long wall that my wall would end up looking wavy. I'd try to put those seams somewhere other than eye level.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Joag.....totally understandable. And like I said before I have also done horizontal hanging and used 12' sheets. The drawing was just an example. When I remodeled an upstairs of a furniture store years back, I don't know how many sheets of 5/8" x12' we had to carry up a fire escape and then hang. All went horizontal.
I was just pointing out about the **** joints. For a lot of guys on here, they want to DIY. **** joints may not be the easiest thing if they are sure about mudding and taping. In my garage, I have 8' walls. I hung mine vertically. I didn't have to get up and down on a ladder, and my walls are straight as can be. It was just easier for me at the time.
But also like I said before, my drywalling days are long over. The guy I hire can be in and out in way less time than it would take me to do it. And he is reasonable, or at least with me he is as I have sent him a lot of work. He recently redid our complete family room ceiling 24' x 24' where it was hacked up by another so called professional. He's also going to come and redo our complete kitchen ceiling where the roofing guy kept slamming down bundles of shingles and cracked the joint in the ceiling.
If I never hang, sand, or touch drywall again, I will be happy.
BTW.....I'll have to ask Ray, my drywaller how long of sheets he uses. I know on the family room he brought in 12's, but I don't know how long of sheets we can get around here.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
We use to do the **** joints between the studs and bend them in a bit.
Would have a horizontal 2x4 between studs but set back 1/2 inch.
a couple of screws into it to hold sheet back.
Gives a taper for mud.
Hope you see what I mean because hard to explain.
Would have a horizontal 2x4 between studs but set back 1/2 inch.
a couple of screws into it to hold sheet back.
Gives a taper for mud.
Hope you see what I mean because hard to explain.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Horizontal is Professional .. lol
Being faster is one thing but not the main reason IMHO
Horizontal actually eliminates the WAVY wall look the vertical will give you.
Especially if a stud or two are not perfectly straight.'Regarding the join at eyesight.?? Only for 4' and 8' tall people ..
OP
5mall5nail5
Well-known member
Guys - should I use mud or actual spackle for the screw holes?
rancherbill
Well-known member
Mud, just do then twice when you are taping.
OP
5mall5nail5
Well-known member
Thanks. Also trying to fix some larger gaps at the ceiling - should I fill with mud then too? Or spackle?
Zeke
Well-known member
I see what you mean and that's clever. But, where's the support? I'd place a narrowed vertical stud in that bay. I might try that sometime on a 'sight' wall.
benjamintmiller
Well-known member
Use joint compound for everything. Spackle is for covering nail holes.
If you have a gap larger than 1/4" where two sheets come together or in a corner, get some setting-type compound ("hot mud"), and prefill the gap before taping. I find the 90 minute stuff gives me about an hour of working time when mixed stiff.
If you have a gap larger than 1/4" where two sheets come together or in a corner, get some setting-type compound ("hot mud"), and prefill the gap before taping. I find the 90 minute stuff gives me about an hour of working time when mixed stiff.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Narrowed stud would do the job.
I just tape the joint and have no problem with the joint.
atfulldraw
Well-known member
I'll wager that I've probably hung more drywall than you will ever watch being installed in your lifetime....
and I've watched another hundred truckloads or so being installed by guys who do nothing but hang drywall all over the country.....
and the overwhelming majority of hangers hang it horizontal. As pointed out earlier, custom sizes are even available to eliminate the hassle of hanging it vertical.
I've never seen anyone start at the bottom. The top piece goes up to the ceiling, then the bottom section is installed.
rancherbill
Well-known member
Large ??? Fill them with 'unthinned' mud. Go around the room fill all them with unthinned mud, then change over to your thinned mud and tape them. They will take LONGER to dry and there will be more shrinkage. Wait at least 2-3 days (or more) before you think of putting on the second coat.
atfulldraw
Well-known member
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
I've never seen anyone ( pro) put a strip in between full sheets EVER.
OP
5mall5nail5
Well-known member
I've never seen anyone ( pro) put a strip in between full sheets EVER.
Yeah me either - I am putting a strip at the bottom, so that the most horizontal seams are well below eye line.
I always go horizontal.
Honestly, I haven't thought out the reasons all that much...it's just something my dad and my shop teacher drilled into me when I was young. Horizontal, working from the ceiling down. I don't do the strip in the middle for ceilings other than 8', either. That little strip is always at the bottom.
Honestly, I haven't thought out the reasons all that much...it's just something my dad and my shop teacher drilled into me when I was young. Horizontal, working from the ceiling down. I don't do the strip in the middle for ceilings other than 8', either. That little strip is always at the bottom.
I vote for horizontal also, with a little twist. Don't put your **** joints on a stud. Google
'butthanger'. You don't have to use their product, but make your own using plywood and thick poster board. Makes mudding the **** joint a lot easier for us DIY types.
'butthanger'. You don't have to use their product, but make your own using plywood and thick poster board. Makes mudding the **** joint a lot easier for us DIY types.