When to fire a contractor?

[majerus]

Not really a garage build, but still along those lines. I am having a concrete patio put on my house and about a month ago agreed to have it done with a local small contractor. The first date we had it scheduled for it rained to much so had to reschedule. We rescheduled it for another date and was told he would be out first thing in the morning. Well I didn't hear from him until about 11am when he shows up with 1 other guy. They get to work and about 35 minutes into it the 'main' guy leaves for a solid 2 hours. In the middle of the 2 hour break the other guy goes and grabs lunch for about 30 minutes. At this point I started to second guess myself for hiring this company.

Once they were back they worked until about 3:30 - 4pm and called it a day. I went out there an asked if they would be back on saturday since the weather was looking really rainy the following week. I was told they dont work saturdays because the concrete plant would be closed. I then asked if he should cover the dug up dirt before he left. He said that was a good idea and he would do so with a 'heavy duty' tarp. I left figuring I shouldnt have to babysit the guy. I check on the progress about 6pm as I had some things to follow up for work. Well guess what, no tarp. I figure whatever people forget things no harm no foul.

The next week it rains like crazy, so much rain it causes a bit of flooding around me. The ground is ok but the tarp probably would have been nice. Though this entire week of rain i here not a single word from the contractor. So Sunday night I reach out and say that we need to delay the week as I had to go out of town for work. (also it was going to keep raining this week anyway so concrete is probably out) He tells me ok and then for another week not a word.

This most recent Sunday I reached out asking when they wanted to come out. I suggested Tuesday, which they confirmed and said they would show up about 8 - 8:30am. I rework my schedule, and Tuesday I am waiting for them to show up, but instead they no call no showed. About 9am I reach out and hear nothing. I then reach out again at 12:30 and hear nothing. At this time I am super pissed and annoyed.

I then get a message at 4:45am saying that they had a death in the family 4 days earlier and thats why they didnt show up. They also had no service since they were at a funeral in another state. I could see that they read my messages though as we were talking though fb messenger. I asked for a refund and that they call me to work this out.

I get a call from the person about an hour after they said they would. On the call I was told that they didnt see they were scheduled for tuesday, that it was my fault for not working with their schedule. At this point I stated my issues with their work on the one day they did show up, and that they need to communicate better. Also this was sold initially as a one day job. Well the owner didnt like that and hung up on me. At this point they wont answer any message or phone calls. I have paid half of the bill t with my Credit card and am thinking about disputing the transaction.

Am I being unreasonable here with time, the no call no show thing? Should I dispute the purchase, or work with the contractor? Are there other options here?


TLDR: Contractor showed up one day worked for about 4 hours. Weather issues didnt allow them to come out for about a week. The day they were scheduled to show up again they didnt call or communicate with me until 20 hours after their scheduled arrival time. Should I file a dispute with my credit card or keep working with the contractor on the job?


Pic of the work so far..

 

[ConCretin]

Obviously you have reason to be concerned but much depends on the nature of your agreement. Do you have a written contract or proposal that you signed?

 

[majerus]

Interestingly I didn't sign anything. I asked for paperwork and was told they would be getting it to me. I asked more then once, which was something I forgot to mention in the post initially.

 

[seanc_mt]

Have you paid a deposit?

 

[ConCretin]

I would dispute the charge and put the brakes on the project until your expectations are incorporated into a written agreement. I wouldn't put 50% down under any circumstances. What possible justification is there for that? The guy can't float a few manhours of labor? he hasn't had to shell out for any major material costs.

 

[majerus]

Have you paid a deposit?

Yea $1500 on a $3000 total project. But did it with a Credit Card.

 

[majerus]

I would dispute the charge and put the brakes on the project until your expectations are incorporated into a written agreement. I wouldn't put 50% down under any circumstances. What possible justification is there for that? The guy can't float a few manhours of labor? he hasn't had to shell out for any major material costs.

Just wondering for future projects what is a normal percentage to put down for a project prior to it starting? I agree when I look at what has been done at this point he has to be less then $50 in material.

 

[lonejacklarry]

Yep, dispute the credit card. I fought this with both a garage builder and a pool builder. It appears no one gives a rat's *** anymore.

Like was said above: do not pay any money upfront. It sounds like a small job and if the contractor cannot front his own expenses you should avoid him.

And contracts and copies of insurance should always be provided. Again, up front.

Simply dispute the amount (all of it) and wait to hear from him. If you still want him for the work (I cannot imagine why) make him provide the paperwork and that you will pay upon completion of the agree terms.

 

[majerus]

Yep, dispute the credit card. I fought this with both a garage builder and a pool builder. It appears no one gives a rat's *** anymore.

Like was said above: do not pay any money upfront. It sounds like a small job and if the contractor cannot front his own expenses you should avoid him.

And contracts and copies of insurance should always be provided. Again, up front.

Simply dispute the amount (all of it) and wait to hear from him. If you still want him for the work (I cannot imagine why) make him provide the paperwork and that you will pay upon completion of the agree terms.

Sad really, I think this is what I am going to do. As for his stuff thats in the ground just pull it up and put it at the edge of my property or make him come out and get it?

 

[Landscraper83]

Just wondering for future projects what is a normal percentage to put down for a project prior to it starting? I agree when I look at what has been done at this point he has to be less then $50 in material.

Will vary state by state. My memory says Massachusetts allows 33% deposit, 33% day work is began, 33% upon completion.

 

[Innovate1]

Sounds like you have tried and tried to work with them. One or two things might be a true emergency on their part and can be overlooked but this is beyond that. I would dispute the charge and fire them. Depending on your local rules they may be able to place a lien on the property but most companies aren't going to go to the trouble for a small amount - most places require some proof that it is legit to file but I found out where I am anyone can do it just by paying about $30 filing fee. Luckily for me the one time I had it happen I filed a complaint with the BBB and he pulled the lien. The guy was spending his time (charging us) having his friends come over to bid other things we needed done - which we didn't ask for - and was taking way too long to do the poor workmanship he was doing. We paid partial payment of what we considered reasonable.

Take pictures and notes of when they showed up and when they missed appointments. Write them a letter detailing all that and send it certified mail. Once they know you are serious and have the documentation they likely will drop any idea of trying to get anything. Find someone who will show up and do a decent job - it's worth a little more for not having the hassle. Then consider yourself lucky for probably avoiding a crappy job that you would have to look at for a long time.

 

[Innovate1]

Put his material at the edge of your property. You don't want him banging around your house when he is mad and doesn't really care. That minimizes his chance of damaging other things in getting and loading his material.

 

[ConCretin]

Just wondering for future projects what is a normal percentage to put down for a project prior to it starting? I agree when I look at what has been done at this point he has to be less then $50 in material.

Some states limit the maximum amount a contractor can demand in advance but there is typically no minimum. That's left up to you to negotiate. This is obviously more complicated for the homeowner when contractors are busy and hard to find but both parties deserve some protection.

In general, Homeowners are best served by paying for materials directly. This provides some protection from liens and better clarifies what you are paying for labor. This also mitigates demands on the contractors cash flow and the need for large deposits.

In your case, I'd stop payment on your credit card if you can and have an open conversation with your contractor. If you can't resolve things to your satisfaction and draft a written agreement to that effect, part ways and move on.

 

[vrinner]

I feel your pain brother. My concrete guy is ALWAYS late but does eventually show up and get the job done. I knew his original estimate date was **** but didn't figure it would be double the amount of time.

I think you are lucky that you paid with credit card as you can probably dispute it.

 

[HoosierMark]

Be careful. Contractors have rights too. I know of a homeowner who fired their contractor due to not following the plans. Their attorney handled it. The contractor fought back and the homeowner lost on the basis that the contractor had not been given the chance to correct his mistake. Attorney looked really bad and needless to say the homeowner was not happy. Point being, check with someone in the know in your city/county or state about what options you legally have.

 

[Slowgsr]

How did his references check out?

 

[bushmechanic]

I'd have terminated the contract at the end of the first day.

That contractor has no value whatsoever.

Now, where someone else draws the line may be different, but that crosses into "you owe ME money now, *******" territory for me; and I'd be collecting on his ***.

The dude dug a mud pit in your yard and left. That is the whole truth of the matter, boiled down to reality.

 

[welder4956]

Just wondering for future projects what is a normal percentage to put down for a project prior to it starting? I agree when I look at what has been done at this point he has to be less then $50 in material.

I put $0 down on a $20,000 garage build and paid nothing until excavation, footings and slab was poured and the framing started. Then it was for work performed to date.

You need to dispute the charge. All they did was batter boards and some light ground prep and have not done any significant work. Plus they have stopped communicating with you, not the other way around.

 

[bushmechanic]

I put $0 down on a $20,000 garage build and paid nothing until excavation, footings and slab was poured and the framing started. Then it was for work performed to date.

You need to dispute the charge. All they did was batter boards and some light ground prep and have not done any significant work. Plus they have stopped communicating with you, not the other way around.

Nobody gets paid a single cent up front on my watch anymore. It's not worth the risk, given how many hacks are out there.

If contractors want to kick up a fuss over more and more people refusing deposits, they can police their own industry better. You get paid when you show me you're worth it.

You want a job pouring concrete? Great. Show up with the concrete ready to rock, and when I get back on site, it had better be meeting schedule. I don't care what personal issues get in the way.

You're running a business. **** happens, and you get the job done anyway.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

On my garage I should have fired the general contractor the first day.
Most of it was issues with the sub-contractor doing the excavation. I tried to tell him areas he could park/turn around and one small part (my new septic field where the ground was soft) of 5 acres not to drive on That a$$ told me to leave his job site. Less than an hour later he had his truck, trailer and excavator stuck right on top of the drain field and tank.
He then gave me a quote on what he'd charge to fill in /smooth over the ruts.

A small job like that most guys could complete (including sealing and back-filling) in one day (not even a long day).

 

[brownbagg]

con with a tractor, if you fire them out right, they will take you to court, get their full payment plus some. only way is to take them to small claim court first or live with it

 

[majerus]

con with a tractor, if you fire them out right, they will take you to court, get their full payment plus some. only way is to take them to small claim court first or live with it

Even if they stop communicating, and have no proof I signed their terms?

 

[majerus]

How did his references check out?

He showed me the work he did and I did some searches nothing looked bad. This has been a lesson on vetting contractors and dealing with them for sure :/

 

[Innovate1]

Even if they stop communicating, and have no proof I signed their terms?

While it's possible they could take you to court I think it's pretty unlikely. But that's just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. If it's a little guy, and it sounds like it is, I think it is unlikely. If they do take you to court I think you have a good case. Make sure you keep track of your records of when you tried to contact him, when he was late, etc, etc. He may huff and puff and threaten but if he knows you have a good case against him, in addition to never signing a contract it seems like a good case. Always best to check with an attorney though. A verbal contract may be as good as a written one in your state.

I have had to fire a couple contractors. Most just walked away from the small amount they thought they were owed. If they are smart they realize how much time and money they are going to invest in collecting and it's not a good return if its a small amount. And by small amount I mean under $1000 to $2000.

I am actually pretty easy going and will let a lot slide. But there is a limit.

If he gives you trouble you might try filing a complaint with the better business bureau. It often helps but some just lie to the bbb and then the bbb wants to go to binding arbitration. On the one case that I had that I said no way even though I had a solid case because the company joined the bbb after I filed my complaint and I thought that might cause them to rule for the company. The contractor gave up shortly after.

Bottom line is there is some risk he may try to collect and only you can decide what to do.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

If there is no contract, I would imagine he has no agreement he can hold you too. Get out.
Next time, do NOT pay anything significant up front. You have zero leverage once you have paid.

 

[bullnerd]

I'm going through it now with a contractor building an attached garage.

Wish I never hired him and did it myself at this point.

Next week will be 1 year on a 6-8 week from permit contract, it was signed even earlier, like February 18!

Good luck dude.

 

[James-W]

I am not an attorney so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.

Even if there is no contract, you have a reasonable expectation that the work will be done in a timely manner. As an example of what I mean, it you have a leaky roof and you hire a roofer to replace the roof, and they rip off the old roof and then don't come back for 6 weeks, they are not doing the work in a timely manner. In this particular case they aren't making a bad situation worse, but they are not getting the job done they were hired to do. With or without a contract you shouldn't have to wait forever to get the work completed. Obviously a contract would spell out the time frame as well as the materials and the price, which would be a really good thing to have. But even without a contract I am pretty sure there are limits as to how long you have to wait.

 

[ConCretin]

con with a tractor, if you fire them out right, they will take you to court, get their full payment plus some. only way is to take them to small claim court first or live with it

Even if they stop communicating, and have no proof I signed their terms?

I seriously doubt there is a state in the union where, absent a signed agreement a contractor can successfully sue for the full quoted cost without having done the work. Even with a contract, there is often a termination for convenience clause that provides for payment for completed work only.

You could be at risk of a lien for the value of labor and materials incorporated into your project to date but that's about it. Even then the lien disappears if it isn't backed up by a lawsuit within a statutory period.

I'd stop payment to protect myself and start over. Whether its this guy or another, make sure you have a clearly defined scope of work contained in an agreement signed by both parties.

Be very wary of advance deposits unless there are significant material purchases involved and then do not make any subsequent payments until you have signed lien waivers for the materials you have already paid for.

 

[Notgrownup]

I had the same thing happen to me couple years ago, the delays. Both labor and weather made me boil, the the hacker messed up my French drain, I had paid what was owed up to that day but I paid for the concrete directly to the concrete co. I held the last 1/3 and he bitched at that... I even under paid him $150 just because he mommicked up my drain...he bitched at this and I asked him if he wanted this $1500 check or nothing at all. Hindsight is 20/20

 

[jimindm]

You guys sort of crack me up. Verbal contracts are as good as any written one. The problem with them is that it is he said she said.

I am in the car repair business. I get OKs to fix cars every day over the phone, and sometimes they are not cheap.

I am not backing the contractor at all. Communication is what it is all about and it sounds like the op is not satisfied.

It does not sound like is was a very big job. Maybe it was. I would guess the contractor is filling in his schedule, between his larger jobs.

You can part ways, but as you are entitled to some things, he likely is also. It is nice to think you can just pile his **** on the curb and tell him to come get it, he is fired. The truth is if it walks off, you very well could be responsible for it.

I really have no idea what people on this board do different than me. In thirty years I have bought a cheap house, improved it almost as much as I paid before moving in weeks later. Several years later had an addition that I GC on. It was about 1500 square feet, with a full basement. Garages, sheds, landscaping, driveways and never had a signed contract.

I have had zero problems with the guys I have dealt with. I just do not get it.

 

[bugnut]

LLwillysfan is spot on:
"I'd stop payment to protect myself and start over. Whether its this guy or another, make sure you have a clearly defined scope of work contained in an agreement signed by both parties."

every project that involves hiring someone to perform in a specific manner should have a clearly written scope, like the repairs at a car dealership!!

The dealership we utilize can tell me most times what the cost is before starting to open the hood. If they do not know they will contact and get an agreement before one more red cent is spent.

This is not difficult I would expect a majority of issues like this arise from "a finger pointing project"

 

[ConCretin]

You guys sort of crack me up. Verbal contracts are as good as any written one. The problem with them is that it is he said she said.

Yea. A verbal contract is just as good as a written one except that it isn't because no-one can prove what is actually says. That's helpful when a dispute arises.

Both parties are at risk but the homeowner bears the bulk of it.
The contractor's risk is primarily payment, which is significantly mitigated by his lien rights. The homeowners only remedy for financial loss, poor quality , slow performance or outright fraud is an expensive lawsuit against an entity that may not have assets.

Sure, a homeowner is best served by selecting good contractors, good communication, careful distribution of funds and close attention to the work but if the SHTF, you are far better off if you have a contract than if you don't.

 

[Farmerjonathan]

Let me be the devil's advocate here. What contractor worth his salt is going to work on days you can be there? He is the pro, he has the equipment, he is paid to do the job. He should have other jobs to go to after yours is done, he has to go quote other jobs while doing jobs to insure continuity. Because he isn't doing it on your schedule he is bad?

 

[Goonwad]

My concrete guy was at my house 6:30 am for the pour, didn't leave until after five. Was back next morning 6:30 to smooth finish concrete and spray sealer. Back 6:30 next day cut concrete and power washed my building inside and out. Even put the year in concrete by the man door. Didn't pay a cent until job was finished and approved by me and my contractor. That's how you earn referrals and repeat business.

 

[Farmall450]

On my garage I should have fired the general contractor the first day.
Most of it was issues with the sub-contractor doing the excavation. I tried to tell him areas he could park/turn around and one small part (my new septic field where the ground was soft) of 5 acres not to drive on That a$$ told me to leave his job site. Less than an hour later he had his truck, trailer and excavator stuck right on top of the drain field and tank.
He then gave me a quote on what he'd charge to fill in /smooth over the ruts.

A small job like that most guys could complete (including sealing and back-filling) in one day (not even a long day).

That sub is lucky he didn't run into some of the people out there...he might not be in any shape to do anything after that fiasco.

 

[ludakris04]

wow,that sounds like a debacle. I had a 22x11 stamped patio installed.
Day one.. they showed up with a stand up escavator thing.. I think they were here about 2hrs or so. Patio completely laid out and steel mesh put down. Excavated dirt spread and leveled where I had asked them to dump it. (wasn't expecting this)
Day two.. concrete wheelbarrowed to the back yard, stamped and color added.
Day three clean up the color powder, cut an expansion joint, and lay down seed/hay and fix any ruts.
I don't think there were ever more than 2 guys doing the work. Probably was over a couple weeks with weather etc, but I would say they were only here a total of 8-10hrs through the whole process.

 

[Kevin54]

Get a buddy, dress him up in a suit, call the contractors over and introduce the suit as your lawyer.....Let the bullshitting begin.

 

[bushmechanic]

You guys sort of crack me up. Verbal contracts are as good as any written one. The problem with them is that it is he said she said.

I am in the car repair business. I get OKs to fix cars every day over the phone, and sometimes they are not cheap.

I am not backing the contractor at all. Communication is what it is all about and it sounds like the op is not satisfied.

It does not sound like is was a very big job. Maybe it was. I would guess the contractor is filling in his schedule, between his larger jobs.

You can part ways, but as you are entitled to some things, he likely is also. It is nice to think you can just pile his **** on the curb and tell him to come get it, he is fired. The truth is if it walks off, you very well could be responsible for it.

I really have no idea what people on this board do different than me. In thirty years I have bought a cheap house, improved it almost as much as I paid before moving in weeks later. Several years later had an addition that I GC on. It was about 1500 square feet, with a full basement. Garages, sheds, landscaping, driveways and never had a signed contract.

I have had zero problems with the guys I have dealt with. I just do not get it.

In some areas, it is nearly impossible to find trustworthy service of any kind. One of those areas is where I live. Nearly nothing can be done unless you either do it yourself, ship something out, or pay someone to come a long way.

If you want something done without going through that, you have to treat the contractors around here like the petulant, irresponsible children they are. If you don't do that, you absolutely will be used for sport one way or another.

You've got to stand out there and watch them get things done, and most of the time exhaust yourself explaining their own job to them.

There are plenty of places where that isn't the case, but there are also plenty of places where it is. Those places it does happen usually share many traits.

 

[bushmechanic]

Let me be the devil's advocate here. What contractor worth his salt is going to work on days you can be there? He is the pro, he has the equipment, he is paid to do the job. He should have other jobs to go to after yours is done, he has to go quote other jobs while doing jobs to insure continuity. Because he isn't doing it on your schedule he is bad?

Depends on his area.

Around here, that could be a logical conclusion. In other places, it's a vast, irrational leap.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

Just wondering for future projects what is a normal percentage to put down for a project prior to it starting? I agree when I look at what has been done at this point he has to be less then $50 in material.

It depends on the scope of work.

Concrete like this, he’s only our labor until they actually pour. He should own his equipment etc. so 10-20% to get on the schedule, 50% the day of the pour if requested and the balance when done. However, most medium sized concrete companies can float the entire job a week or two minimum until its wrapped up.

A custom kitchen, flooring, addition etc it’s not unusual to be at 30-70% deposit depending on the job. If we’re doing a full custom set of cabinets for someone at say $24k, we’ll be into those 10k in materials and 6k in labor before we deliver and install them. So we do 75% deposit typically to cover the actual expenses incurred. Sure, I COULD cover it, but we’re also booked two months on that side of the business,or ~20 kitchens.

You do the math.

Plus our new construction side, where we float millions of spec houses, don’t get me started on the redicuouous terms one off homeowners want us to abide by. We have the money, the resources and the network. You don’t try and dictate our terms