To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

When to fire a contractor?

Hilltopmasonry

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
2,166
IIf we’re doing a full custom set of cabinets for someone at say $24k, we’ll be into those 10k in materials and 6k in labor before we deliver and install them. So we do 75% deposit typically to cover the actual expenses incurred. Sure, I COULD cover it,


Of coarse you COULD cover the cost of materials but then you also run the risk of your customer flaking out or deciding to cancel the job or something

Anything custom you are stuck footing the bill since its not returnable so most contractors require the full amount for at least the custom materials

I’ve had that where I ordered something for a customer that they decided they didn’t want to do the job... fortunately for me it was just a small $80 glass block window

So it was a learning lesson

I like to do $100 non refundable down payment to get placed on the schedule, 25% down on the first day we start and the balance due upon completion for smaller jobs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
M

majerus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
240
Location
St. Louis Missouri
Let me be the devil's advocate here. What contractor worth his salt is going to work on days you can be there? He is the pro, he has the equipment, he is paid to do the job. He should have other jobs to go to after yours is done, he has to go quote other jobs while doing jobs to insure continuity. Because he isn't doing it on your schedule he is bad?

The reason for being there was to discuss the final lay out, and make sure my dog would be inside the house. (Normally he just in runs the yard all day). I would generally agree the contractor does not need to work around my schedule. However the company would need my approval to do the work on days he sees fit. In this case he didn't propose anytime, I always had to. This is the convo when we scheduled the date, the one he didnt show up for. (I am the blue background text)

Messages2.jpg
 

James-W

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
12,432
Location
Southeastern Wisconsin
When I had the concrete guys do my garage and approach, I didn't pay anything down. The boss came by, checked everything out at the site, went home and did some price checking and then came back with a written proposal stating what they would do along with the materials to be used, the price for the materials and a total price. I agreed to the proposal and when the work was done I gave them a bank check for the full amount. They did a super job and I was more than pleased with the results. It is unfortunate you had a bad experience, but I guess that happens sometimes.
 

lonejacklarry

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
45
Location
Lone Jack, MO (Pop. 1024)
Larry's rules:
a. no money up front
b. The Better Business Bureau is a paper tiger. No one cares whether there is a good rating or not. They have no enforcement capabilities and have no obligation to help anyone but themselves.
c. Small claims court is like the BBB-worthless. You might get the judgement but that is not getting your money.
d. Liens may be threatened but have problems. They must be renewed periodically and there is no chance of getting any money until the property changes hands. You must be tuned in to the sale where your money lies. If the lien is not attached you are SOL
e. See rule a.
 

Indy_500

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
1,873
Location
Appleton, WI
I just had a group of 5 hispanic men do my roof on my 2 story house and 4 car attached garage. This is post is to show the extent of effort they put in to get the job done. The day i called for a quote the boss showed up to my door in 45 minutes. He said next day, he'd meet me at a gas station near my work to get me some shingle samples. The day after that i called him saying lets go ahead and do it, so the following day he showed up at my house right after i got home from work with his paperwork to sign and i gave him $1000 down, his paperwork was very simple, as he did not speak very good english. The first day i called for the quote was last monday, and he started the roof by friday. They worked 13 hrs friday due to rain coming saturday afternoon, and spent 3 hrs saturday finishing up a few shingles and clean up which they seem to have done a good job cleaning up. Now, after the experience i just had, if it were me id send your contractor to the curb. I was able to get an entire roof done on my house less than a week after calling for a quote.
 

xyster101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
640
Location
Upstate NY
Typically you should not pay until they show up to start. I would break the payments down as follows:

Half labor up front when they arrive on day 1.
Material costs goes to that company (concrete, lumber etc.) when delivered
Last half due day it is complete and inspected by you.

Then you at least have the material if they leave you.
 
OP
M

majerus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
240
Location
St. Louis Missouri
So I disputed the charge today as I gave the company imo plenty of time to get back to me. (have not replied to me since friday) I did get another company to come out that has a ton of reviews and is only $300 more expensive, and guess what... They do not want a dime up front. The way it works is they come one day and frame everything up, dig etc. The next day I pay the concrete truck driver for material when he shows up on site. Then when all is said and done I owe him (3400 - concrete costs) via a check. Thanks for all the advise in this thread, a learning process for sure.
 

bushmechanic

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
4,820
Typically you should not pay until they show up to start. I would break the payments down as follows:

Half labor up front when they arrive on day 1.
Material costs goes to that company (concrete, lumber etc.) when delivered
Last half due day it is complete and inspected by you.

Then you at least have the material if they leave you.

If I buy anything up front, there's a nice piece of paper that explicitly illustrates how fast I get my money back if they fail to execute the agreement, how much more than the purchase price they'll have to pay, how quickly that number increases with delay, and pointing out that it's got to be gone in a certain amount of time or penalties will pile up.

The whole point of contracts is to secure relationships and clarify things of that nature. If you get the paperwork right ahead of time, problems that arise are not as big of a deal.

It bugs me that people treat contracts as just something that has to be signed. They are a form of art, in many ways. It's an intellectual exchange between two people balancing risk and maximizing benefit; a game of chess playing out on paper.

Use the damned things, people. Explore how entities can be bound to a specific system that is precisely illustrated in language and reference. If you're not bringing something to a table for them to sign, why are you signing what they bring you?

Finding that little wedge to tip a seemingly balanced scale in your favor is a form of art, in a way.

Would you buy a car a Ferrari dealership didn't have to deliver? Relying only on the law of the land to handle a dispute if you got a Versa instead of the Ferrari you paid for? Of course not. You'd counter their agreement with one of your own; stating they must deliver that car or a penalty will occur.

...but the contractor might not sign it...

Well how would you feel about that Ferrari dealership if they refused to sign your counter? You wouldn't buy the car there, now would you?
 

b-boy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
2,155
Location
Buffalo NY
Just because you stop payment, doesn't mean it will stick. The CC company will do an investigation and if the contractor makes a good case (weather???) they'll just re-apply the charge.
 

b-boy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
2,155
Location
Buffalo NY
I agree with what most people are saying on here about down payments and contracts.
However, most contractors just don't operate that way. Everything is pretty vague, and in some cases you're lucky to get them to put anything in writing.

It makes it even harder, when you can't get anyone to show up to give you a quote. I try to get at least 3 quotes for any job I contract out. Overall, I'm lucky to get a callback 20% of the time. Sometimes you either have to do it yourself, or use the guy you're not 100% comfortable with. It *****.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

ConCretin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
If I buy anything up front, there's a nice piece of paper that explicitly illustrates how fast I get my money back if they fail to execute the agreement, how much more than the purchase price they'll have to pay, how quickly that number increases with delay, and pointing out that it's got to be gone in a certain amount of time or penalties will pile up...…..

Sounds good if not for this....

However, most contractors just don't operate that way. Everything is pretty vague, and in some cases you're lucky to get them to put anything in writing.

It makes it even harder, when you can't get anyone to show up to give you a quote. I try to get at least 3 quotes for any job I contract out. Overall, I'm lucky to get a callback 20% of the time. Sometimes you either have to do it yourself, or use the guy you're not 100% comfortable with. It *****.

Like it or not, it's a sellers market in most areas of the country. Contractors have all the work they want and are not interested in dealing with demanding customers. It's sad but it's true.

A contract by itself guarantees nothing - it must be enforced by a court. If you end up there, everyone loses except the lawyers. Does that mean you shouldn't bother with written agreements? I don't think so. The process itself has value by ensuring both parties expectations are aligned and hopefully avoiding problems down the line. It doesn't have to be a 50 page document. Signing a detailed proposal is better than nothing.

If a contractor isn't willing to accept reasonable payment terms that protects both parties and document your basic understanding of scope and quality, you proceed at your own risk.
 

b-boy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
2,155
Location
Buffalo NY
Like it or not, it's a sellers market in most areas of the country. Contractors have all the work they want and are not interested in dealing with demanding customers. It's sad but it's true.

That's fine but once you've committed to a job, even with a demanding customer, you should complete the job as agreed. A lot of these guys just don't seem customer oriented. It's more about what's good for them. The customer is secondary.

This 'disappearing act' that a lot of contractors play is pretty annoying. If you're a contractor, and you negotiated a project at a set price, you need to do the work in a professional, timely manner. That includes communication with the customer.

I've had 2 guys ghost me 3/4 of the way through a job because they underbid the job. Is that my fault?
 
Last edited:

Cairo94507

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
343
Location
Auburn, CA
I hope you fired the contractor by sending him a letter and disputed the CC charge immediately. Any job that starts like that is only going to end poorly.
 

bushmechanic

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
4,820
Sounds good if not for this....



Like it or not, it's a sellers market in most areas of the country. Contractors have all the work they want and are not interested in dealing with demanding customers. It's sad but it's true.

Hasn't stopped me from getting things done. The hacks leave, and the people who want to do a job and do it right get paid. If someone finds that demanding (backing up their promises), than that person does not deserve to work in that field.

Most of my trouble involves jobs that typically are done by weekend warriors. The big stuff is handled by paper, but calling up someone to bush hog a few acres or just move some wood...

For ****'s sake. It's hard to get someone to show up, paper or not.

A contract by itself guarantees nothing - it must be enforced by a court. If you end up there, everyone loses except the lawyers. Does that mean you shouldn't bother with written agreements? I don't think so. The process itself has value by ensuring both parties expectations are aligned and hopefully avoiding problems down the line. It doesn't have to be a 50 page document. Signing a detailed proposal is better than nothing.

A contract does indeed align interest.

Beyond that, what a contract does is cut through tons of tape, so when things do go wrong, it's a much faster solution. Rather than fighting with piles of paperwork and hearsay, it's just a matter of did you do what you were supposed to do or not? It can be proven immediately.

That's a relatively easy question to answer in any court, and the lawyers get paid what they're paid for the time. I get my money back, so it's no sweat off my back. It's padded enough to cover lost profits and the costs associated with retrieval.

Three pages can contain everything needed most of the time, and at least one of them is largely blank, and there are a lot of spaces between paragraphs and lines.

Most of the details will be covered under their own documents. You can reference that in yours to save time and keep it all smooth; but that means you get in there and read the hell out of theirs.

People are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for houses, and tens of thousands for garages, here. You wouldn't buy a television under the contracts they use some of the time, and yet people do it.

That's why so many contractors screw people over. It's not much of a gamble for them in the short term. People rarely fight back properly, and almost never read the full terms on offer.

If a contractor isn't willing to accept reasonable payment terms that protects both parties and document your basic understanding of scope and quality, you proceed at your own risk.

That's true, and people need to know that showing up unarmed to a paper fight makes no sense at all.
 
OP
M

majerus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
240
Location
St. Louis Missouri
Just because you stop payment, doesn't mean it will stick. The CC company will do an investigation and if the contractor makes a good case (weather???) they'll just re-apply the charge.

I have a pretty good documentation regarding what happened. Not to worried at this point will have to wait and see. This had nothing to do with weather.
 
OP
M

majerus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
240
Location
St. Louis Missouri
To provide an update on this situation if anyone else finds themselves in a similar situation. The credit card dispute went great, and the credit card company never even reached out to me. All my money was refunded and the project went off without a hitch with my other contractor.

About a week and half after I filled the dispute, I just happened to the contractor Menards when checking out.

He tried to avoid eye contact, however I went over and spoke to him and his wife. When I asked what happened I got told he was just trying to make a living. I let him know that I filled a CC dispute and he should expect to hear something from my CC provider. They had already been in contact with him. So at the end of the day the CC dispute worked for this shoddy contractor.
 

frank001

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
665
Location
Southern California
This is the law in CA. Seems logical to me.

Price – All contracts must include the agreed-to price. Any job costing $500 or more (combined material and labor) needs a
written home improvement contract. By law, the job must be
completed for the agreed-upon contract price.
If the contract price needs to be changed, it MUST be done with
a written change order that becomes a part of the contract.
Down Payment – If the contract calls for a down payment before work starts, the down payment cannot be more than $1,000 or 10 percent of the contract price, whichever is less, for a home improvement job or swimming pool, excluding finance charges. There are no exceptions for special order materials.
Also the contract must state a payment schedule.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom