When to replace HVAC equipment?

[reader2580]

How often should HVAC equipment be replaced? It seems the most expensive way is to wait until it breaks. My gas furnace and central A/C are only seven years old now so not worried about replacement for quite while.

I am strongly considering installed geothermal in about five years if my body can still handle it by then.

 

[Jim greengo]

Depends on the equipt,and how well it's been taken care of.
The good old days of furnaces and ac's running for 30 plus years are long gone I do believe.
I'd say most newer furnaces and 410a ac systems are going to be good for 15-20 years,anything after that is a bonus.

 

[Git]

My house has two separate units - one for each floor. Spring of 2020 the 2nd floor unit failed at 17 years and we opted to completely replace it with an high seer unit which hopefully will help offset the cost in the long run.

So, since we have 2 units and a minisplit in the garage and my adjacent 'office' on the 1st floor, I am just going to wait until the 1st floor unit fails and then see about replacing it. We are not in location where we will freeze to death or the pipes are going to freeze, but MN is certainly a different story. I think 20 years is probably a reasonable life span if the original unit is of decent quality

 

[Stuart in MN]

You should have it serviced and inspected regularly, and that will help determine if and when it needs to be replaced. I had to replace my furnace a few years ago; my HVAC company did a fall inspection and noted that some cracks were starting to develop in the heat exchanger but it would still be okay for a while, so I was able to wait until spring and after the heating season to get it done.

 

[Git]

You should have it serviced and inspected regularly, and that will help determine if and when it needs to be replaced. I had to replace my furnace a few years ago; my HVAC company did a fall inspection and noted that some cracks were starting to develop in the heat exchanger but it would still be okay for a while, so I was able to wait until spring and after the heating season to get it done.

Isn't that 'crack in the heat exchanger' one of the biggest scams going when it comes to HVAC? (I mean just google it). And besides, if it is really cracked - wouldn't it be unsafe to operate and a responsible tech would red tag it and put it out of service?

Learn The "Cracked Heat Exchanger" Scam[And How To Avoid It]

Falling for a cracked heat exchanger scam can costs you thousands of dollars. Learn how to spot and avoid this common winter heating and cooling scam.

johncipollone.com

Avoid The “Cracked Heat Exchanger” Scam This Winter

A cracked heat exchanger is a real HVAC problem, but it's also one that attracts scammers. Learn how to avoid getting ripped off this winter.

youraircomfort.com

Cracked Heat Exchanger Scam? | Ocean City, NJ

Although cracked heat exchangers are real HVAC problems, scammers often use them to cheat people into paying thousands of dollars.

broadleys.net

Avoid These 4 Common Furnace Repair Scams | Oconomowoc Boiler Problem Tricks | Waukesha Heating System Maintenance Company | Hot Point Heating & Air Conditioning LLC Oconomowoc, Wisconsin

Don't be taken by a shady furnace repair technician! Learn these four common tricks to avoid being scammed.

www.hotpointheating.com

and on and on....

 

[Hobby_Man22]

If you have an R22 system made out of copper i'd milk that thing until you can't anymore. Hell the 410a is just as expensive as 22 now for some reason.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I have an r22 system where the condenser is a 2008 model and the air handler is a 2006 model I believe. Hurricane ike must have taken out the condenser in 08.

 

[Jim greengo]

Isn't that 'crack in the heat exchanger' one of the biggest scams going when it comes to HVAC? (I mean just google it). And besides, if it is really cracked - wouldn't it be unsafe to operate and a responsible tech would red tag it and put it out of service?

Learn The "Cracked Heat Exchanger" Scam[And How To Avoid It]

Falling for a cracked heat exchanger scam can costs you thousands of dollars. Learn how to spot and avoid this common winter heating and cooling scam.

johncipollone.com

Avoid The “Cracked Heat Exchanger” Scam This Winter

A cracked heat exchanger is a real HVAC problem, but it's also one that attracts scammers. Learn how to avoid getting ripped off this winter.

youraircomfort.com

Cracked Heat Exchanger Scam? | Ocean City, NJ

Although cracked heat exchangers are real HVAC problems, scammers often use them to cheat people into paying thousands of dollars.

broadleys.net

A lot of times it comes down to the location and size of the crack.
I personally dont do many change outs anymore,so I dont have anything to gain by trying to bs someone about a cracked heat exchanger.
I'll tell them its cracked and they can get a send opinion from somebody who can replace the furnace for them.

 

[Jim greengo]

These are some old pictures had on my phone.
Somebody else told him the heat exchanger wasn't cracked,so I circled them when I pulled it out.
I had him invite the guy from the other shop who said I was full of **** about the cracks after I pulled it out,he was suddenly too busy to waste time on it.
It took a lot of years of practice to know what to look for and where to look on differant brands/models.
Trane 80% furnaces from 80s-90s were always the easiest to find cracks in,our local trane supply house really hated me back in the day.

 

[Jeepster04]

Would you say that crack would allow enough CO in the house to be an issue? Did you test the air coming out of the vents for CO? Any noticeable flame movement when the blower kicked on?

My currently setup says 2001 on the tag. Its a trane XR80 furnace, cant remember what seer the A/C is, maybe 10? My house is small and shaded, so Im not too worried about upgrading the A/C. If I had a family or something, I might would be a little proactive, but I can heat my house with 3-4 space heaters in an emergency. Not worried about the A/C going out...

Otherwise, Ive always thought 20 years was pretty average, but Im far from an expert.

 

[reader2580]

My system was installed in 2014 so definitely R410A. It is Lennox and I suspect I have one of the evaporator coils that can leak. The whole class action settlement for leaking coils is silly. Apparently, there is a chance they will install a second one of the bad coils. If that happens and it leaks again they will keep replacing coils until you get an aluminum or coated copper coil. The bad coils are uncoated copper.

 

[Jim greengo]

Would you say that crack would allow enough CO in the house to be an issue? Did you test the air coming out of the vents for CO? Any noticeable flame movement when the blower kicked on?

My currently setup says 2001 on the tag. Its a trane XR80 furnace, cant remember what seer the A/C is, maybe 10? My house is small and shaded, so Im not too worried about upgrading the A/C. If I had a family or something, I might would be a little proactive, but I can heat my house with 3-4 space heaters in an emergency. Not worried about the A/C going out...

Otherwise, Ive always thought 20 years was pretty average, but Im far from an expert.

I prefer not to wait till it's a full blown hole before I call it.
You also have to remember the heat exchanger in those pictures was ice cold,when the heat exchanger heats up things expand/open up.

 

[danski0224]

Most of the time, the "cracked heat exchanger" line IS a scam.

There is a searchable publication called "AHRI Guideline X" which details the process of condemning an induced draft furnace with a suspected bad heat exchanger.

 

[mike93lx]

I have three R22 units from 2003. I've preemptively gotten quotes to replace each, and may take the jump on the first floor unit in the next year or two, but the 2nd and 3rd floor units won't get done until they fail.

I have only been in this house 6 months, but will have them serviced annually

 

[gungatim]

LGR!

 

[gmcgeo]

I only had one cracked heat exchanger in the past 10 years that i have found.

Single stage Bryant propane furnace. The furnace was 17 years old.

It was replaced with a 90+ temp star dual stage.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

That was Rheem that had leaking air handlers out of the box that I believe had the recall and possibly the lawsuit. They would get a system installed then 2 days later it would be out of freon and this isn't the installers fault.

 

[reader2580]

That was Rheem that had leaking air handlers out of the box that I believe had the recall and possibly the lawsuit. They would get a system installed then 2 days later it would be out of freon and this isn't the installers fault.

This was also an issue with Lennox. See https://www.evaporatorcoillawsuit.com/

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Where I work we get a lot of opportunities to check houses for CO.

Any CO coming out of vents we redtag the furnace as "assumed cracked heat exchanger". I would not call it "uncommon" but not super common either. It seems like a lot of these we get involved with are rentals where the tenant has complained about an issue to the landlord and the landlord has told the tenant "It's fine....don't worry about it"....so they call us at the gas co.

When you get into rental housing where the landlord/owner does his own maintenance...you see everything. Ever seen a heat exchanger "fixed" with JB Weld? uhhh...I have seen it attempted.

 

[danski0224]

Given an intermittent ignition, induced draft furnace, I am surprised that a heat exchanger that is sufficiently "cracked" to allow CO into the airstream is even running long enough to not trip out on something like a flame rollout safety.

I would assume something worse, like a blocked flue (80% AFUE may "vent" through the water heater draft diverter) or faulty water heater venting.

 

[PoorUB]

Would you say that crack would allow enough CO in the house to be an issue? Did you test the air coming out of the vents for CO? Any noticeable flame movement when the blower kicked on?

If it has a cracked heat exchanger the heat exchanger needs to be replaced, or the whole furnace. I don't want to find out how bad the cracks were at a funeral. Plus the crack might be minor today, but can you guaranty it will not get worse really fast? A CO alarm is good to have, but you should not need to use one to monitor the condition of your furnace!

 

[mopar4u]

Ive wondered the same question. My gibson furnace and a/c is 16 years old. I had a new evaporator in 3 years ago. Can inspecting a heat exchanger be done by a diyer? My gut says i should think about replacing before failure. Especially if failure happened in dec jan feb.

 

[Jim greengo]

Given an intermittent ignition, induced draft furnace, I am surprised that a heat exchanger that is sufficiently "cracked" to allow CO into the airstream is even running long enough to not trip out on something like a flame rollout safety.

I would assume something worse, like a blocked flue (80% AFUE may "vent" through the water heater draft diverter) or faulty water heater venting.

The big roll out and boom on start up tends to get my attention,then I start looking.

Ive wondered the same question. My gibson furnace and a/c is 16 years old. I had a new evaporator in 3 years ago. Can inspecting a heat exchanger be done by a diyer? My gut says i should think about replacing before failure. Especially if failure happened in dec jan feb.

Simplest thing to check is for a flame roll out or the big woosh when it fires up,past that requires tearing into the furnace/removing parts.

 

[jagboy69]

The time to change it is when the bastards in DC outlaw your refrigerant. Which is always right around the corner!
It's a BIG SCAM! Sorry to be salty, but I do HVAC work and it pisses me off to see people throw away good equipment and forced to buy stuff they can't afford all for some invisible hole pushed by some jokers whackadoo agenda.

 

[4x4Pete]

The utilities around here are in bed with a service company that offers insurance plans to cover breakdowns. Usually priced around $50 a month. Trouble is that only covers a certain amount of repair work. Somewhere around $1200. Therefore any simple service work is marked up ridiculously. Exhaust ventor replacements are priced at a minimum of $2100.00. If a call is diagnosed as a plugged filter the furnace is red tagged with cracked heat exchanger and the sales guy is there before the tech has even left! It's not uncommon to hear that people are getting sold new furnaces when their old one is less than 8 years old!! Really trustworthy business model!

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I guess my opinion on this is assuming there is no problem with the existing equipment and it is already 90 plus efficiency, I wouldn't replace it.

If you wait, you may get another 5 or 10 years out of it. Furnaces that only run a few months a year and are properly maintained can last a long long time.

As far as an emergency replacement situation, that is where having "Your guy" can really be the difference. I've got that guy. He's the one who has done electrical work for me for years. He's the one that put the a/c system in my home addition. He's the guy I recommend to all my friends. If my furnace went out tomorrow I'm sure he'd come replace it for me ASAP.

The other thing I've got is a fireplace with a ventless log set, and another backup ventless heater in my family room. Even if my furnace went out, I'd be able to keep the house liveable through any conceivable cold snap.

So...to me having a solid relationship with an HVAC professional and some extra equipment you can lean on in a pinch, trumps replacing a good furnace just because it has some age on it.

Phil

 

[engineer2]

30 year old original Inter-City Products (ICP) 100k natural gas with a 3 ton R-22 York condensing unit.
Repairs: One Ignitor, 2 flame sensors, fiberglass repair to the rusted out A-coil pan (that was fun !). No Freon leaks in 30 years.

We are thinking about a new system. We'll never get payback, but it's difficult to sell a house with an ancient system.
There have been some good posts on GJ in the past discussing various brands and things to watch out for.

Are there any condensing units that can fit in a narrow space, like 36" between an exterior wall and a walkway? Not essential, but it would make the back yard quieter.
Do the new systems require a new line set? Mine is behind basement ceiling drywall.

 

[mike93lx]

30 year old original Inter-City Products (ICP) 100k natural gas with a 3 ton R-22 York condensing unit.
Repairs: One Ignitor, 2 flame sensors, fiberglass repair to the rusted out A-coil pan (that was fun !). No Freon leaks in 30 years.

We are thinking about a new system. We'll never get payback, but it's difficult to sell a house with an ancient system.
There have been some good posts on GJ in the past discussing various brands and things to watch out for.

Are there any condensing units that can fit in a narrow space, like 36" between an exterior wall and a walkway? Not essential, but it would make the back yard quieter.
Do the new systems require a new line set? Mine is behind basement ceiling drywall.

If the only reason to replace is because of a sale, do it then, IMO, or give a credit as part of the sale.

On my systems, the company that quoted said they would flush the lines and reuse them if they aren't easily accessible. My 2nd and 3rd floor units have the line sets all inside the walls, so replacing would be a PIA

 

[reader2580]

I guess my opinion on this is assuming there is no problem with the existing equipment and it is already 90 plus efficiency, I wouldn't replace it.

If you wait, you may get another 5 or 10 years out of it. Furnaces that only run a few months a year and are properly maintained can last a long long time.

My entire HVAC system was new in 2014 including ductwork. Gas furnace that is 90%+. The house had electric baseboard heat and no central A/C previously. I will save enough on utilities over the first decade to cover the cost of the new HVAC system. I have no plans to replace it any time soon unless there is a total failure of some kind. I am just trying to get an idea of when I might expect to need to plan on a replacement.

One of my co-workers proactively replaced his furnace and A/C a few years ago when the system was 25 years old. He didn't want to be without heat trying to schedule an emergency replacement. Another co-worker had a really bad furnace that wasn't even keeping his house completely warm. His finances were maxed out so he put it off for a few years. He finally had the furnace replaced and he said it was the first time his house was actually warm and comfortable. He is probably saving money on gas too.

I need to find a good HVAC person. There are a lot of HVAC companies that have 10 to 50 service vehicles and advertise heavily, but most of them use the flat **** system for pricing repairs. A really good company installed the HVAC system in my previous house I had built, but they were already at the edge of their service area and they didn't want to do any future work due to distance. They certainly won't come to my current house that is much further out.

 

[danski0224]

How often should HVAC equipment be replaced? It seems the most expensive way is to wait until it breaks. My gas furnace and central A/C are only seven years old now so not worried about replacement for quite while.

I am strongly considering installed geothermal in about five years if my body can still handle it by then.

There is no hard and fast rule.

The service life is dependent on so many variables, the most important of which is the quality of the installation.

I have no issues with suggesting proactive replacement if the equipment is 15 years old or older, and is in serviceable condition.

There is no way to tell when it will have a catastrophic failure, and it could function for years to come.

The problem is when it fails when it is needed, and then the replacement becomes an emergency instead of a nuisance. During a hot or cold snap, one is also open to so-called market adjustments... There may not be time to do major system or duct changes or upgrades, either.

As long as the furnace passes a combustion analysis, I'm fine with whatever the homeowner wants to do.

There is merit to having a checkup performed on a regular basis. Combustion problems can be caught, and problems with the AC can be caught (leak, inefficient compressor). Of course, these things can only be caught if the person doing the work is doing their job.

There will be naysayers here, but given that evaporator coils can have a factory defect, and the basic parts warranty is 5 years, it's good to know what's happening before the warranty is up.

 

[Jim greengo]

The utilities around here are in bed with a service company that offers insurance plans to cover breakdowns. Usually priced around $50 a month. Trouble is that only covers a certain amount of repair work. Somewhere around $1200. Therefore any simple service work is marked up ridiculously. Exhaust ventor replacements are priced at a minimum of $2100.00. If a call is diagnosed as a plugged filter the furnace is red tagged with cracked heat exchanger and the sales guy is there before the tech has even left! It's not uncommon to hear that people are getting sold new furnaces when their old one is less than 8 years old!! Really trustworthy business model!

Warranty companies in general ****!

 

[Git]

California has a lot of crazy rules and codes - but I will give them credit when it comes to replace or installing HVAC equipment. The installation contractor has to hire and independent HERS tester. (Home Energy Rating System). So a guy comes out, verifies the charge in the AC, does a leak test on the ductwork (they seal all the vents up and then use a computerized fan to force air into the ductwork and measure the resistance, along with the velocity of the air flow. If the system does not pass the HERS test, the contractor has to make it right and you don't get the final inspection on the building permit until after the HERS test

Regarding warranties - my house insurance includes 'equipment breakdown' coverage, so when my outdoor unit failed (summer of 2020) I filed a claim and sure enough they coughed up $8K towards a complete replacement of my choice. The furnace was still good, but I didn't make sense not to replace a 17 year old furnace when the AC side was being replaced. Didn't pay a thing for the coverage, it was included in my policy

 

[reader2580]

California has a lot of crazy rules and codes - but I will give them credit when it comes to replace or installing HVAC equipment. The installation contractor has to hire and independent HERS tester. (Home Energy Rating System). So a guy comes out, verifies the charge in the AC, does a leak test on the ductwork (they seal all the vents up and then use a computerized fan to force air into the ductwork and measure the resistance, along with the velocity of the air flow. If the system does not pass the HERS test, the contractor has to make it right and you don't get the final inspection on the building permit until after the HERS test

Regarding warranties - my house insurance includes 'equipment breakdown' coverage, so when my outdoor unit failed (summer of 2020) I filed a claim and sure enough they coughed up $8K towards a complete replacement of my choice. The furnace was still good, but I didn't make sense not to replace a 17 year old furnace when the AC side was being replaced. Didn't pay a thing for the coverage, it was included in my policy

I bet a lot of homeowners keep old inefficient HVAC equipment running well beyond expected lifespan because they know their ductwork will fail and don't want to pay to fix the ductwork on top of new equipment. Sort of like in my city getting a building permit requires paving the driveway before final signoff of the permit so most homeowners without paved driveways never get permits for work.

What insurance company do you have that covers HVAC equipment replacement? Just like life insurance that kind of insurance will always end up paying out if the homeowner is a long term customer. HVAC equipment will need replacement at some point. Home Warranty companies will sometimes replace HVAC equipment, but it is generally the cheapest equipment available installed by a crappy HVAC company that will accept the low pay the warranty company offers.

 

[Git]

It is a fairly new, internet based company - Hippo. They offer some perks that normal insurance companies charge extra for -> equipment breakdown coverage, service line coverage (utilities from the street to the house), etc. The equipment breakdown part "covers your appliances and other home equipment when they break down because of mechanical or electrical failures." (The Hippo policy was a lot cheaper that what I was paying for from USAA)

What happened with our HVAC is the actual electrical connector to the condenser shorted out/melted which caused the seal to fail and all the freon leaked out. This was on a r22 unit installed in 2003 so I knew I wasn't going to waste money trying to repair it and opted for a full replacement including the furnace. I got 3 quotes from some reputable contractors and ended up using Costco. (They were running a 15% gift card deal at the time and no one else could come close to their price, and I felt that Costco would have my back if things went sideways.)

The contractor wrote up an estimate for me for the cost to just repair what we had that I submitted to Hippo, but we went ahead and had a complete brand new Lenox system installed that week. At the time I wasn't really counting on Hippo to come through, kind of like if they would actually kick in some money that would be great kind of a thing. In California, an insurance company has 40 days to deny or approve a claim and on the 40th day they sent me a check for $8,250 - which was basically the price the contractor estimated for the repair. Hippo never sent anyone out, just relied on my contractor.

Very pleased with Hippo especially since I live in what is considered an 'extremely high fire hazard zone' and insurance can be hard to come by. Lastly, this incident was considered a claim on my home insurance - they use 'Mutual Boiler Re' for equipment breakdown

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[reader2580]

Hippo is not for me based on the quote I got. The quoted price for the closest to my current policy is over double what I am paying now. The policy with HVAC equipment coverage is another $40 or so.

I get underground utility coverage now with my insurance, but I am not sure it has much value for me. My agent said it appears they will not cover lines to septic systems or lines to wells. My underground gas and electric lines are already covered by the utilities all the way to my house.

 

[Jackfre]

Geothermal is very efficient but very costly on the front end. Given the efficiency of todays heat pumps in five years you may see better options. I have, somewhere, a DOE report that states the the average home looses between 18-42% of its energy in duct losses. If your equipment is still good and you are planning to do an upgrade in the future, to me the first thing to do is analyze the duct work. Repairing duct work is a miserable job given the location, which in many cases is why it leaks in the first place. Many think it is ok for a duct to leak if it is still in the building envelope, but that is not always the case. Leakage can create different pressure zones which can dramatically increase infiltration. When we moved into our current home in ‘11 there was a 5 yr old Carrier hvac system. The equipment was fine but the ductwork was a disaster. I pulled it and installed the mini-splits. I have a Rinnai DV wall furnace as well for heat on one side of the house. Eliminating the duct work gave us two closets and storage under the staircase. Perhaps the best part of the change is that the system is quiet and the zoning is excellent. The audio side of equipment/systems is a big factor in comfort. Find your guy to do the work and give him/her the leeway to do the job “when they have time,” rather than emergency replacement.

 

[jagboy69]

I hear this all the time, I'll get my money back in 10years. Trouble is, the new evaporator coils MIGHT make 10years if you clean them regularly which no one does because they are usually a PITA to access. I got fed up with a home warranty 10years and decided it was time I learn HVAC. Best investment I've ever made. I don't do it for a living, but if there ever was a license to steal, it's THIS ONE! My neighbors learned a long time ago, it pays to be friends with me. Piss me off and I'll weld the doors shut on your car! (just kidding)

 

[reader2580]

My ductwork was all installed in 2014 when the furnace and central A/C was installed. The ductwork is metal and they sealed seams with a brush on sealant.

The electric bill for my house had been $3,500 per year. My gas plus electric is no more than $1,500 per year. The $2,000 per year savings will pay for the $20,000 install in ten years.

 

[Innovate1]

Unless your ducts run through unconditioned space I find it hard to believe there is much loss in the ducts. If they leak they leak into the conditioned space so it's not like the energy is really wasted - it still goes to heat or cool the space.

As far as replacing equipment this has me thinking about my equipment. It's a Trane 90+ that's about 20 years old. No issues and just had maintenance which was just cleaning. I have replaced the motor caps in the outdoor unit twice.

Maybe I am due for issues. I suppose the most likely are the motors and heat exchanger? I am not too worried as I have radiant floor heat too and a wood stove so it's not like it would be an emergency repair situation.

My budget heating bill (spread over 12 months) was about $60 a month for gas and that includes a bit of radiant heat for the garage so I am in good shape on expenses. But of course that's going up with gas rates going up.

 

[danski0224]

Unless your ducts run through unconditioned space I find it hard to believe there is much loss in the ducts. If they leak they leak into the conditioned space so it's not like the energy is really wasted - it still goes to heat or cool the space.

Common flawed argument.

I've tested metal duct (no sealer) and seen 30% leakage. If it's installed poorly, leakage can be more.

Add airflow losses due to ****** fittings and connections and friction.

A 2000 cfm system with 20% leakage means that 400 cfm (approximately "1 ton" of airflow) is lost.

That air isn't in the ductwork going where it is supposed to.

Return leakage in an attic meant that the system is pulling 20-30% of hot and maybe humid air into the system and killing AC performance.

Same thing happens in heating season, and maintaining humidity may be impossible.

Duct leaking is bad.