When You Think a Plumber....

[ddawg16]

When you think a plumber charges too much for the plumbing work on your house.....then you need to do what I did over the weekend....crawl under the house and move the main sewer line over 1.5 feet so that you can have a footing under a wall that needs to support a shear wall for the stairs.

1st....There is minimal room for my 'large' frame to fit...my elbows and knees are sore from crawling around underneath....do you know how hard it is to dig under the house? Moved 10' of sewer line...completly re-rounted all of the copper plumbing......

And my #2 son is officially on my **** list....while under the house on Sunday (water has been off all day), he decides that he need to go to the 'potty'....my first clue that something was amise was the trickle of water coming out the open pipe of the toilet (I had already flushed it to drain the tank)...that trickly was his pee.....A short time later that he did more than just pee....when I went to pull up the bowl so I could replace the flange...I see a bowl full of turds...."What part of DON'T USE THE TOILET did you not understand?" Yea....he is on the **** list...literaly....

Anyways....after 2 days of being under the house....it's all done....and no leaks....every muscle in my body hurts....I don't think I have every been so dirty and smelly.....

On a good note....good progress on the new rear foundation....with luck I will be pouring concrete in a week or so....managed to get power to my garage re-routed with a temp feed to the existing load center until I have the addition framed....

My conduit for garage power....

My boys have been having a blast playing in the trenches...

This is the second of 2 loads of dirt....and I still have a big pile in the back yard....

 

[bazzateer]

Being a cop John you should know that **** always runs downhill! And it usually sticks!

 

[KenS]

My conduit for garage power....

That conduit looks undersized for 220v so I'm guessing you're running a 110v line. Do yourself a major favor and run 220.

Assuming you have at least a 200 amp panel in the house, you can add a 100 amp breaker for the garage and put a subpanel out there. Having 220v in the garage will give you power for a compressor and a welder. It's so easy to do when everything is open.

At a minimum, I would at least run conduit big enough to hold the No. 1 underground rated cable you would need for that run. Then you could pull it in the future. I would also drop in a second smaller conduit for internet, cable TV, fiber optic or whatever the future holds.

Also, now is the perfect time to put a water line out there.

I'm speaking from experience.

 

[Alchymist]

That conduit looks undersized for 220v so I'm guessing you're running a 110v line. Do yourself a major favor and run 220.

Assuming you have at least a 200 amp panel in the house, you can add a 100 amp breaker for the garage and put a subpanel out there. Having 220v in the garage will give you power for a compressor and a welder. It's so easy to do when everything is open.

At a minimum, I would at least run conduit big enough to hold the No. 1 underground rated cable you would need for that run. Then you could pull it in the future. I would also drop in a second smaller conduit for internet, cable TV, fiber optic or whatever the future holds.

Also, now is the perfect time to put a water line out there.

I'm speaking from experience.

I see 2 black and one white in the conduit - so he's got 220; where is the 4 th wire for ground? Anyway, 3 #4 and a #8 ground THWN will fit in a 1-1/2 inch conduit, the conduit in the picture looks to be at least 2 inch.

 

[darkk]

Makes me glad my son in law is a plumber, even owns the business....

 

[ddawg16]

The conduit is 1"....black and whites are #6 THHN with a #8 bare copper wire for ground....feeding it with a 50A breaker.

 

[justanengineer]

Nice work on the plumbing, been in similar situations a time or two myself.

As to your opening point however, I would ask the question...Since when is having a dirty job justification for charging a large amount? Not trying to insult anyone, but there are lots of dirty/crappy jobs (ever watch Mike Rowe?) that barely pay a living wage.

 

[ddawg16]

As to your opening point however, I would ask the question...Since when is having a dirty job justification for charging a large amount? Not trying to insult anyone, but there are lots of dirty/crappy jobs (ever watch Mike Rowe?) that barely pay a living wage.

That is a good point.....I guess it really comes down to how much are are willing to pay yourself....and the knowledge base required to do the job.

Digging a hole under the house? Don't need a whole lot of brains....but how much would you pay yourself to do it?

Running sewer pipe...correctly...so that it meets code and does not leak? Might take a little 'knowledge' there....

Sweating copper pipe? Not hard....but I know a lot of really smart people who don't even know how to cut the pipe....

Then there is the issue of tools.....I'm fortunate in that I have pretty much everything I need....the Sawzall is my friend....

My problem is that I like doing the stuff because it's physical/mechanical labor....somewhat theraputic in nature....yea, I could afford to pay someone....but I pick and choose those battles....like I'm paying someone to dig the foundation....that is just pure grunt work....a good reason the main guy is only paying his helper $80/day.

So at the end of the day it comes down to how much your time is worth combined with your knowlege and tools....if you have the knowlege and tools....then it's just a matter of what you think your time is worth....if missing any of the other two....time to call in the expert....

 

[GarageEnvy]

Been there, done that and you're right, it's awful. On the up side it looks like your project is really picking up speed. If you removed all that dirt by hand that's more impressive than the plumbing! I have a good friend who is a plumber. He showed up in the middle of my water main relocation for my garage addition. Funny how he was able to do the exact same thing I was doing twice as fast and twice as clean.

Is it just the angle of the photo or is that trench for the electrical a little shallow? The inspector was super-picky on mine. He measured a depth of 23" at one point and I ended up scraping another inch off the bottom of the trench to pass.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Steps to eating pizza with your hands:

Get a good hand cleaner.

Get a good used tooth brush.

Scrub.

Make sure you get all of that inspected. I would hate for the next owner of your home to find a problem and sue you like the guy with the rotten window is getting sued.
That's what they are there for.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

Hey! Don't blame your '#2 son' for dropping a load - HE WAS JUST LIVING UP TO HIS TITLE.

 

[slip knot]

Congrats on finding where that water leak was coming from and be very glad you had drained the water out first. You know that may have been the only time they ever flush would be when you have asked them not too.
I woulda thought busting the patio out woulda been enough but crawling under the house to tackle the plumbing next. You some kinda masochist or what?

FWIW I don't consider what I pay my plumber is to keep me out of the work but to keep me outta trouble. Its a royal PITA to have some snippy code compliance snot tell me it's not right and tear it all out. They come on site, see my plumbers truck out front and sign off without even looking at the job. That is what I pay for.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Congrats on finding where that water leak was coming from and be very glad you had drained the water out first. You know that may have been the only time they ever flush would be when you have asked them not too.
I woulda thought busting the patio out woulda been enough but crawling under the house to tackle the plumbing next. You some kinda masochist or what?

FWIW I don't consider what I pay my plumber is to keep me out of the work but to keep me outta trouble. Its a royal PITA to have some snippy code compliance snot tell me it's not right and tear it all out. They come on site, see my plumbers truck out front and sign off without even looking at the job. That is what I pay for.

As a home owner you should be very angry about this.
The inspector is your last line of defense to a correct installation.
If you are home you should walk up to the inspection process and ask the inspector how it looks and ask his comments.
As the installer I want the home owner to ask him right there in front of me what the inspector thinks of the job.
Plumbing contractors do not benefit from this lack luster inspection routine, they suffer from it. It damages credibility in the industry.

John:
Just remember one thing, clean outs and long sweeps are basically free.
Because if you have them in your lines your bill for rodding and or searching for troubles will always be less.
Use the heck out of them.
Put some stone under your install so it sets correctly. Put some pea gravel over the top so it protects your lines from stones and soil buckling.

 

[B17E1943]

Doing "most" of my own plumbing or at least attempting it for the last 20 years or so leads me to say that plumbers are UNDERpaid IMHO.

 

[Torque1st]

In my house signs and telling people not to use fixtures were not enough. Packing tape liberally applied was needed. Normally intelligent people get real stupid when the 'need' arises.

A bucket half full of water with a plywood top or a cheap seat is much easier to empty later. It also saves those idiotic "what am I going to do" interruptions to your work. You will still get the questions even if the bucket is next to the stool with a "Temporary Toilet" label on it.

Remember to chain the bucket off so they don't try to be helpful and empty it into an open pipe...

 

[onemore]

What was the estimate? Whenever I think it's not worth it, I reflect upon how much I saved. Makes me feel better.

 

[ddawg16]

John:
Just remember one thing, clean outs and long sweeps are basically free.
Because if you have them in your lines your bill for rodding and or searching for troubles will always be less.
Use the heck out of them.
Put some stone under your install so it sets correctly. Put some pea gravel over the top so it protects your lines from stones and soil buckling.

Here are a couple of pics of the work....didn't take any 'before' pics...

My initial concern is how I plumbed the toilet...this is the pic of what I did...straight down from the toilet into a 'sweep'....the side pipe is my vent. I couldn't see any other way to do it.

And this is a pic of where I made the sewer 'detour'. Now that you mention sweeps....wish I had used them...but then again, I don't recall seeing any....it's not real clear in the pic but each turn is a 45....I would be surprised if it created a problem for a snake....

Good suggestion on the rock under the pipe....I have plenty of it under the house....but first I have to get that footing poured....

 

[NUTTSGT]

Doesn't look like you even had any cobwebs to deal with.

 

[HoseB]

Is it just the angle of the photo or is that trench for the electrical a little shallow? The inspector was super-picky on mine. He measured a depth of 23" at one point and I ended up scraping another inch off the bottom of the trench to pass.

I believe code is 18". That trench looks less than a foot deep...

Edit: NEC sez 18" for direct-bury cable, 12" for conduit.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

John:
I don't see any clean outs on any of this.
Put yourself into the future, and take a look at rodding equipment.
So in a few years maybe John is less able to get under the house and do his own stuff, he calls out a guy, tears in his eyes, the guy has 2 types of machines, a drum contained cable or a free spin cable.
Free spin can't go into the house cause the tail wrecks everything, the drum beats the heck out of the house. You really don't want us in the house at all. Sure, we could cut in some clean outs while the lines are loaded, for a fee, an emergency fee.
So picture Just how and where you would like to have cleanouts to make it easy, AKA cheap and easy, to rod.
I charge more for --- busters, I'm sure the rest of the lads do too.
Another word is "hangers" Cheap insurance when you use plastic pipes.
If you put some plastic and stone down there you will have a lot less mold and odor.
Make it nice for yourself.

 

[ddawg16]

John:
I don't see any clean outs on any of this.
Put yourself into the future, and take a look at rodding equipment.
So in a few years maybe John is less able to get under the house and do his own stuff, he calls out a guy, tears in his eyes, the guy has 2 types of machines, a drum contained cable or a free spin cable.
Free spin can't go into the house cause the tail wrecks everything, the drum beats the heck out of the house. You really don't want us in the house at all. Sure, we could cut in some clean outs while the lines are loaded, for a fee, an emergency fee.
So picture Just how and where you would like to have cleanouts to make it easy, AKA cheap and easy, to rod.
I charge more for --- busters, I'm sure the rest of the lads do too.
Another word is "hangers" Cheap insurance when you use plastic pipes.
If you put some plastic and stone down there you will have a lot less mold and odor.
Make it nice for yourself.

What is not obvious yet is that the end of the sewer line will end up going out through the footing....and continue straight back for another 15' where it will exit the rear of the house into a clean out.

So what you are suggesting is adding a cleanout within the new section of pipe?

I just did a search on cleanouts...if I'm understanding it correctly, I need a cleanout in the short section between the two 45's. Is that correct?

And just to confirm....my down pipe for the toilet is ok?

And one last thing....the area I'm working on is going to end up being under the stairs. I plan to install an access door there...I hate crawling under the house....I figure it will make my life a lot easier to have the access door there...it would drop me right at the point of work...

 

[Frank The Plumber]

I can't see the pipe work too well up high on the toilet section, the bottom looks OK with the long sweep. But I would add a clean out.
The code on toilets is going to change even further, the nuts who are writing this code want to use less than half a gallon of water to flush a toilet.
At the same time the goofy toilet papers industry wants to sell a product that feels like velvet on your ****. And stinking baby wipes products too. This stuff does not dissolve correctly to be transported.
I have a lot of line blocks on the 1.6 gallon units, now we are at 1.2 gallons. Mercy.
These low volume flush units strand the wastes. Thus, I have become MR. Nutso about clean outs. I would put a few clean outs in places not usually thought of, they are cheap to install and save you in the long term. If they can't run back ward up the line they end up pulling fixtures, that adds to costs, much easier cheaper to unplug a CO and rod away.

 

[ddawg16]

Ok...makes sense...so it looks like I need to add two clean outs....one right after the sweep of the toilet....and one in the short section between the two 45's.....should take all of about 10 min to install.....if I do it NOW....

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Yup, best 10 minutes you could invest, you'd pay a guy for 30 minutes of head scratching and 2 hours of install time, later when you're 70 years old and can't do it yourself. Or have to cut a turd filled line yourself, nice.
I'll make a plumber out of you.

 

[Torque1st]

You can get within a couple feet of a toilet with one of those toilet snakes but for everything else you need clean-outs.

Frank,
What are they recommending now for a line slope with the new low flow toilets? Are they still using 1/4" per foot? Reviewing the reasons for that line slope and how it is molded into some fittings may help some of the DIY guys install the proper fittings.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Frank The Plumber]

1/4 is a lot, 3/16 or 1/8 is better in PVC or ABS, 1/4 leaves the riders stranded.

 

[bgott]

I have seen problems with running the pipe straight out of the toilet like you show in your picture. Now, being that you have a real foundation and are building on stable soil I doubt you are going to have the same problems. In my neighborhood, which is mainly dredge spoils from when they dredged the Houston ship channel, I have had problems from straight up and down soil pipes because of settling of mobile homes and pier and beam houses. The units will settle and sink the DWV pipe to the point where they lose their drop. When I've had it become a problem I've just dug it down and ran a 45 degree leg to lighten the strain. Right now, in my house, I need to cut off the shower drain pipe and shorten it up because the tub has sank into the floor and the house has settled. That is causing the shower pipe to block the main DWV pipe that runs out from under the house.

 

[Torque1st]

Thanks Frank. 1/4" must have been from the real old school galvanized or cast iron soil pipes of my day.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

!/4" is for a nice high flow system with plenty of water flow, 4" cast iron in a high rise here.
These new toilets are killers.
A gallon of water just is not enough. PVC is nice and slippery inside so a little less works better. You always want to be code legal of course.
An inch in 4 feet is a lot of pitch.
If you put up a 40 foot line you see a 10" drop on that thing.

 

[59 wagon man]

just my 2 cents. i hate having to climb into a crawl space to pull a c/o plug on a backed up sewerline, it's hard to run when the **** is shooting out of the c/o and your squatting or kneeling down. then when you run the machine all the **** is all over the place. plus it is a ***** to try and work a machine in a crawl space. i would either lift the toilet and run my gorlitz basket machine thru the flange or take my ridgid k60 up onto the roof . our code down here is a 90 degree bend requires a c/o 2- 45 degree bends require no c/o. also sand is recommended downhere to bed the pipe and cover it .while we could use gravel any stones over 5/8" would need to be removed so we generally use sand

 

[theoldwizard1]

Slightly off topic, but related to poor plumbing inspections.

My brother in law is selling his house. It is about 30 years old. One of the 2 basement drains was completely blocked by cement that slopped over from pouring the floor. Luckily he was able to break through using various tools (including a closet auger). He called the plumber back for a full rod out.

 

[5lima30]

John, you gave a good laugh this morning! Seriously though it looks like you did a real professional job. It never ceases to amaze me the wide variety of talents and walks of life that cops have in their background. I used to have a cop that worked for me that was a reptile handler (milking poisonous snakes etc) at a large zoo prior to becoming a cop. Guess who got to handle all the snake/ alligator calls!

 

[SGTH55]

Frank, 2009 UPC still call's out on all waste lines be installed 1/4" per foot. 4" and above can be 1/8" if approved.
I like the 1/8" on pvc/abs pipe because of the low flow **** we now have because the flow is not the same as before. With the older WC one flush you could push 60' before it started to slow down.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

I know the code. What goods a code that hurts you? You put that line in at 1/4" per foot on a 3" line with one toilet on it that flushes with a 1.2 closet and it plugs all of the time. The water gets out ahead of the solids, leaving them behind to solidify.
Next dose comes and the same happens, more stranding, and then you get a full load blockage.
Too much pitch leaves the solid stranded, not enough and the stranded solids just lay there hoping the next flush washes them to freedom.
You can go to court and say I did it per code. That won't save you.
We are up against it here with these low flow toilets. You can not win for losing. It just is not enough water to float a donation 100 feet with a 1/4 roll of paper chasing it.
Your only hope is to place a sink or a tub or shower on the same line as the closet.
In that way you may get some extra wash waters to keep the bio load rolling towards final destiny.
You put these things in a home because you simply can not get any other device, six months later the line is blocked going to the street. The home owner gets some scammer in there to rod their sewer, the guy blames you for installing the toilet.
Then your client calls you up and reads riot to you about installing this thing.
What are you supposed to do?
Truth is that the systems in most places are designed as hi flow, needing water to operate properly.
Add wipes and cotton papers and gee golly you get a lot of BS going on in a simple system.
It really leaves you standing there designing a system that will wash a flush with other sources. and it is going to get worse.

 

[SGTH55]

Here in Calif. it's going to get worst still. I have seen .8 gpf wc's and people want to put them in because the price of water is so high. They don't listen when you tell them they will end up flushing more because it will leave stuff behind...so now the .8 will will be a 2.4 or more. The laws here are not working for us......I think you can get a ticket if you fart
My kid may have had it right, he moved to Texas, hot rods and guns aren't outlawed there.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

The future is the dry toilet.
I think the fan industry is going to grow by leaps and bounds.
Air fresheners too.