Where do electric car chargers come from?

[JackOfDiamonds]

I understand how gas stations work, mostly, but who builds public electric chargers, why, and can I do it myself?

When it comes to "public" chargers, who deploys them and who pays for them and who gets the money when people use them?

I've heard there are "networks" like "electrify america". What's that? Is it a utility? A private company? A co-op? How does it work economically / as a business?

If I want a charger at my work office, is there anyone that will come put in a "public" charger? Can I put one in myself, connect it to the building, and make money off people using it? Like how would I bill them? And what would be the liability? If I put one of my own, just for my own employees, can I STOP other people from using it? How? Are there laws about what kind you have to put in, what you can (or must) charge, where they can be placed, etc.?

 

[mike93lx]

I understand how gas stations work, mostly, but who builds public electric chargers, why, and can I do it myself?

When it comes to "public" chargers, who deploys them and who pays for them and who gets the money when people use them?

I've heard there are "networks" like "electrify america". What's that? Is it a utility? A private company? A co-op? How does it work economically / as a business?

If I want a charger at my work office, is there anyone that will come put in a "public" charger? Can I put one in myself, connect it to the building, and make money off people using it? Like how would I bill them? And what would be the liability? If I put one of my own, just for my own employees, can I STOP other people from using it? How? Are there laws about what kind you have to put in, what you can (or must) charge, where they can be placed, etc.?

The company name that is on them... Nothing more. Googling their name will tell you what you need

Metering power can sometimes make you be considered a utility, which you don't want. You can probably allow one of the companies install one under a lease agreement that they pay you for.

 

[ToolsRCool]

I understand how gas stations work, mostly, but who builds public electric chargers, why, and can I do it myself?

When it comes to "public" chargers, who deploys them and who pays for them and who gets the money when people use them?

I've heard there are "networks" like "electrify america". What's that? Is it a utility? A private company? A co-op? How does it work economically / as a business?

If I want a charger at my work office, is there anyone that will come put in a "public" charger? Can I put one in myself, connect it to the building, and make money off people using it? Like how would I bill them? And what would be the liability? If I put one of my own, just for my own employees, can I STOP other people from using it? How? Are there laws about what kind you have to put in, what you can (or must) charge, where they can be placed, etc.?

Chargers are built into each EV themselves. Any cord going to a car is really just that, just an extension cord. The cord just has a communication means in it that tells the car the max power that can be pulled through the cord based on the circuit size it is connected to.

If you want a real charging station, it would be called an EVSE pedestal. An easier way to possibly achieve what you want is for you to just buy a LEV I (120v) or LEV II (240v) cord type EVSE, and then just park your car where you would be able to plug your own charging cable into an exterior 120v or 240v outlet.

They do make EVSE pedestals which take credit cards, use a keypad to activate, or an RFID card swipe, for controlled access. You could also put them on a timer.

We have EVSE pedestals here at my work. We have found a lot of EV owners have deep entitlement, thinking they should be able to charge for free, for whatever reason. To do so on our company property is actually both trespassing and theft. There is no difference between stealing electricity or stealing gasoline, you are stealing energy. It only took one person to pull up, plug in, and start charging their car, which they then dropped a pin on some EV charging app saying they were able to charge for free at our place. We had nothing to do with it or authorized such. Had to lock the chargers up after that. People would have their spouses drop their car off on weekends plugged into our chargers, to be dropped back off to pick it up Sunday night. It got out of hand quick, and all unauthorized. Verbal arguments, everything. Why would we be paying for public electricity usage?

 

[Sumboodie]

Well...

When a mommy charger and daddy charger love each other very much....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are you wanting to install these as a source of revenue? do you have electrical skills?

probably best to just lease the space theyre going in....

 

[cybrdyke]

I understand how gas stations work, mostly, but who builds public electric chargers, why, and can I do it myself?

There are dozens of manufacturers of EVSE's. You could probably build one yourself, but it would be expensive and difficult to source some of the materials and it wouldn't likely turn out very well.

When it comes to "public" chargers, who deploys them and who pays for them and who gets the money when people use them?

Most EVSE's are privately owned, even those that you are calling "public" are nearly all privately owned. There are companies who own, install and maintain them just like vending machine companies. A city like yours might contract with one of these companies to install them at strategic locations. The company that owns and installs them gets the money.

I've heard there are "networks" like "electrify america". What's that? Is it a utility? A private company? A co-op? How does it work economically / as a business?

Electrify America is the result of Volkswagen's punishment for falsifying emission reports on their cars. They contract a manufacturer to make the equipment and another to make the software. Then, they have a team that works to get them installed. Chargepoint does the same thing.

If I want a charger at my work office, is there anyone that will come put in a "public" charger?

There are lots of companies, mostly electrical contractors, that offer EVSE installation.

Can I put one in myself, connect it to the building, and make money off people using it?

A contractor will have to install it, but you can make the money off of people using it.

Like how would I bill them?

They pay when they use it. You dont have to bill them. You decide how much to charge them.

And what would be the liability?

That's for your insurance company to decide. You'll have the public on your property.

If I put one of my own, just for my own employees, can I STOP other people from using it? How?

Yes you can. You can give your employees access via an RFID tag or a code that no one else has. And then if anyone else tries to use it, you can either block them or make them pay.

Are there laws about what kind you have to put in, what you can (or must) charge, where they can be placed, etc.?

Your limited by your electrical infrastructure, and there are electrical codes, but I'm not aware of any laws. You decide how much to charge. Some utilities dont allow the reselling of the power they provide, but there are ways around that. You decide where it gets placed, within building codes.

You forgot one question...can i make a profit? The answer is barely. If you have a very active machine in a really good location then you can do OK, but we dont see anyone getting filthy rich from them.

Hope that helps.
CD

 

[rharman]

Well...

When a mommy charger and daddy charger love each other very much....

Dang.... I miss one day of reading GJ and you come in and steal my response.
That was literally the first thing I thought of when I saw the title.

 

[75gmck25]

I have a Chargepoint EV charger at my house, so I have an account with the company. Apparently there are some commercial chargers (for example, the two in our Safeway parking lot) that I could go to and I may be able to use my Chargepoint account to "buy" a charge. However, I have a PHEV so I just let it cut over to gasoline and wait until I get home to charge.

 

[Innovate1]

Well...

When a mommy charger and daddy charger love each other very much....

What's love got to do with it?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Honestly, it's a big mess out there. You have hardware manufacturers, networks, and sometimes the payment isn't even through the network. But sometimes all three are the same company (like ChargePoint). I just made a 600-ish mile trip and what a mess it is. EV-Smart chargers being billed by SWTCH in some cases or by Shell Power in others. Regional payment networks. Some need an app, some let you think you can pay on the spot with the phone, some of those actually do let you do that. Payment processors want to hang on to your "extra" money if you use an app. After two trips, I now have cash escrowed against my will with three different payment outfits.

If you want to learn how it works, just buy an EV and take a long trip.

That said, if you want the highest odds of making the trip easily, make sure you drive a Tesla or have a NACs adapter for your car and be ready to use the Tesla network.

I could go on and on and on.

 

[Innovate1]

That said, if you want the highest odds of making the trip easily, make sure you drive a Tesla or have a NACs adapter for your car and be ready to use the Tesla network.

I could go on and on and on.

Or use a vehicle that uses petroleum. Hybrids seem much more practical at this point.

 

[mm08822]

Honestly, it's a big mess out there. You have hardware manufacturers, networks, and sometimes the payment isn't even through the network. But sometimes all three are the same company (like ChargePoint). I just made a 600-ish mile trip and what a mess it is. EV-Smart chargers being billed by SWTCH in some cases or by Shell Power in others. Regional payment networks. Some need an app, some let you think you can pay on the spot with the phone, some of those actually do let you do that. Payment processors want to hang on to your "extra" money if you use an app. After two trips, I now have cash escrowed against my will with three different payment outfits.

If you want to learn how it works, just buy an EV and take a long trip.

That said, if you want the highest odds of making the trip easily, make sure you drive a Tesla or have a NACs adapter for your car and be ready to use the Tesla network.

I could go on and on and on.

What do they do, put an initial amount on the card like at a gas pump? Then they don't refund/release the difference?

So when do you get this money back? next use? How much $ is held ransom?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Honestly, it's a big mess out there. You have hardware manufacturers, networks, and sometimes the payment isn't even through the network. But sometimes all three are the same company (like ChargePoint). I just made a 600-ish mile trip and what a mess it is. EV-Smart chargers being billed by SWTCH in some cases or by Shell Power in others. Regional payment networks. Some need an app, some let you think you can pay on the spot with the phone, some of those actually do let you do that. Payment processors want to hang on to your "extra" money if you use an app. After two trips, I now have cash escrowed against my will with three different payment outfits.

If you want to learn how it works, just buy an EV and take a long trip.

That said, if you want the highest odds of making the trip easily, make sure you drive a Tesla or have a NACs adapter for your car and be ready to use the Tesla network.

I could go on and on and on.

yeah no thanks... dont want all that frustration and i dont like being someone's guinea pig.... i'll let the kids in a "candy store" waste their time on this tech that wasnt developed properly before going to market.

 

[JackOfDiamonds]

I think most everyone who buys an EV in my area charges at home. A guy at work has had an EV for 5 years and never charged outside his garage. I asked him how long it took to charge, and he didn't know his car's charge speed because he never waited for it to charge. People wouldn't go to the gas station much either if you could fill up with gas at home.

Since gas stations always make their money on the convenience store, you'd think gas stations would start putting in chargers all on their own. I wonder if there's some barrier to them doing that. Even when I see supercharger stations they are on their own even if there's a gas station nearby, when they should be literally at the gas station.

 

[JeepYJ]

I think most everyone who buys an EV in my area charges at home.

you'd think gas stations would start putting in chargers all on their own

I think you answered your own question.

 

[Innovate1]

There is a gas station/convenience store not too far from my house. Not sure what the arrangement is but they have about 6 charging stations. It's about 5 blocks from a freeway junction and there are usually a couple cars charging. No idea what they do while waiting for a charge. There is a small shopping center a couple blocks away so they could make it a meal stop but a short distance away.

 

[dchawk81]

Well...

When a mommy charger and daddy charger love each other very much....

Sparks fly! It's electric!

 

[dchawk81]

Dang.... I miss one day of reading GJ and you come in and steal my response.
That was literally the first thing I thought of when I saw the title.

Same.

 

[dchawk81]

I think most everyone who buys an EV in my area charges at home. A guy at work has had an EV for 5 years and never charged outside his garage. I asked him how long it took to charge, and he didn't know his car's charge speed because he never waited for it to charge. People wouldn't go to the gas station much either if you could fill up with gas at home.

Since gas stations always make their money on the convenience store, you'd think gas stations would start putting in chargers all on their own. I wonder if there's some barrier to them doing that. Even when I see supercharger stations they are on their own even if there's a gas station nearby, when they should be literally at the gas station.

Different gas stations around here are putting chargers in their parking areas. They're catching on.

 

[bwringer]

...Since gas stations always make their money on the convenience store, you'd think gas stations would start putting in chargers all on their own. I wonder if there's some barrier to them doing that. Even when I see supercharger stations they are on their own even if there's a gas station nearby, when they should be literally at the gas station.

This is starting to happen, but it's not immediately at the massive scale of petroleum infrastructure, and it looks a little different. But yes, you can attract people to spend time at your business with EV chargers. Some places invest in installing these to increase traffic, some lease out the parking lot space, etc.; there are many types of arrangements.

For example, Buc-ee's locations usually have a row of chargers, many hotels have chargers guests can use, and sometimes there are chargers in places like coffee shops, malls, shopping centers, large restaurants, and department stores. These might be free for customers to use, or discounted.

There are also "public" chargers here and there at places like libraries, municipal parking lots, etc. in places that would like to encourage EV adoption.

In the Midwest, most Meijer stores have Tesla chargers (the stores earn money by leasing the space to Tesla), and many have Electrify America chargers as well.

I mean, in the early days of internal combustion, you had to order gasoline in gallon jars at the drugstore to be delivered by horse-drawn wagon; EVs haven't been widespread for THAT long, so in some ways it's not all that surprising things are kind of a mess. In other ways, it's surprising that we're having this much trouble; payment at gas pumps, websites, etc. has been pretty much figured out for many years.

Another issue is that EV chargers are so regularly vandalized; as you see in this thread, some people seem to be filled with immediate inchoate rage by the very thought of an EV charger, for reasons unfathomable to rational people. Public bathrooms have the same problem.

 

[JackOfDiamonds]

Double post

 

[dchawk81]

Considering you aren't supposed to leave gas pumps unattended, and filling up with gas is pretty fast, so you don't have a lot of downtime, gas customers probably have a low conversion rate in the pay-at-the-pump era. I know I never go inside them. That's probably why they always have annoying ads at the pump.

But even fast EV chargers are going to take 15 minutes or so, and as far as I know there's no problem leaving them alone, so EV customers are much more likely to wander into the store and monitor charge state on their app.

The fastest demonstrated charge time I know of is the zeekr gold battery which charges from 10% to 80% in 10 minutes, or about 25 minutes from 0% to 100%.

Yeah the places I see the chargers at are the bigger "rest stop" oriented places.

 

[dcg9381]

Different gas stations around here are putting chargers in their parking areas. They're catching on.

Considering gas stations typically make $0.01 per dollar spent on gas and the per kWh "mark up" is 300-400%, seems like the math might work out eventually. $8 in power at home costs me $24+ at a charge station.

Personally I'm not gonna ever roll my own EVSE.. Way too much going on with the communications side of things between with the cars and the charger. I just looked at Amazon and they had a level 2 charger for <$100. Not saying I'd buy it... But I sure as heck ain't building it.

 

[acer66]

This is starting to happen, but it's not immediately at the massive scale of petroleum infrastructure, and it looks a little different. But yes, you can attract people to spend time at your business with EV chargers. Some places invest in installing these to increase traffic, some lease out the parking lot space, etc.; there are many types of arrangements.

For example, Buc-ee's locations usually have a row of chargers, many hotels have chargers guests can use, and sometimes there are chargers in places like coffee shops, malls, shopping centers, large restaurants, and department stores. These might be free for customers to use, or discounted.

There are also "public" chargers here and there at places like libraries, municipal parking lots, etc. in places that would like to encourage EV adoption.

In the Midwest, most Meijer stores have Tesla chargers (the stores earn money by leasing the space to Tesla), and many have Electrify America chargers as well.

I mean, in the early days of internal combustion, you had to order gasoline in gallon jars at the drugstore to be delivered by horse-drawn wagon; EVs haven't been widespread for THAT long, so in some ways it's not all that surprising things are kind of a mess.
In other ways, it's surprising that we're having this much trouble; payment at gas pumps, websites, etc. has been pretty much figured out for many years.

Another issue is that EV chargers are so regularly vandalized; as you see in this thread, some people seem to be filled with immediate inchoate rage by the very thought of an EV charger, for reasons unfathomable to rational people. Public bathrooms have the same problem.

Yeah and I would not be surprised if the horseback riders said the same thing about ice’s when they came about similar to what some of the ice crowd says about ev’s today but here we are.

Did not know that vandalizing chargers is a thing but then on the other hand…

 

[dchawk81]

Considering gas stations typically make $0.01 per dollar spent on gas and the per kWh "mark up" is 300-400%, seems like the math might work out eventually. $8 in power at home costs me $24+ at a charge station.

Personally I'm not gonna ever roll my own EVSE.. Way too much going on with the communications side of things between with the cars and the charger. I just looked at Amazon and they had a level 2 charger for <$100. Not saying I'd buy it... But I sure as heck ain't building it.

I'm a curmudgeon. I needed something newer and bought the last model year of a now 6 year old product. Because the engine bay looks very similar to my 1997 car.

Reviews call it "anemic, underpowered" I call it "**** I can work on 10 years from now."

 

[txvwnut]

What's love got to do with it?

So mommy charger was out with her girlfriend chargers for good time and this handsome slick talking boy charger says hi and well, 5 mojitos and some tequila shooters later...

 

[dcg9381]

Reviews call it "anemic, underpowered" I call it "**** I can work on 10 years from now."

You'll get no objection from me.
Less and less I want to turn my own wrench... But the economics of taking care of an already depreciated vehicle are definitely there and I think they are smart.


But I can see "gas stations" installing EVSEs based on margin factor alone... And you've got a more "captive" audience as they take a little longer to "fill up" - so you are perhaps more likely to sell the high profit margin things like drinks and food....

 

[whateg01]

There is a gas station/convenience store not too far from my house. Not sure what the arrangement is but they have about 6 charging stations. It's about 5 blocks from a freeway junction and there are usually a couple cars charging. No idea what they do while waiting for a charge. There is a small shopping center a couple blocks away so they could make it a meal stop but a short distance away.

I've only had one experience driving an EV. Recent rental in Orlando. Found a charging station on an app. Went and plugged in, then sat in the car for about 10 minutes catching up on GJ.

 

[dchawk81]

I've only had one experience driving an EV. Recent rental in Orlando. Found a charging station on an app. Went and plugged in, then sat in the car for about 10 minutes catching up on GJ.

Loser.

 

[dchawk81]

You'll get no objection from me.
Less and less I want to turn my own wrench... But the economics of taking care of an already depreciated vehicle are definitely there and I think they are smart.


But I can see "gas stations" installing EVSEs based on margin factor alone... And you've got a more "captive" audience as they take a little longer to "fill up" - so you are perhaps more likely to sell the high profit margin things like drinks and food....

Yeah I was just kind of muddling or something. I'm with you on the realities.

 

[arrowhead]

Honestly, it's a big mess out there. You have hardware manufacturers, networks, and sometimes the payment isn't even through the network. But sometimes all three are the same company (like ChargePoint). I just made a 600-ish mile trip and what a mess it is. EV-Smart chargers being billed by SWTCH in some cases or by Shell Power in others. Regional payment networks. Some need an app, some let you think you can pay on the spot with the phone, some of those actually do let you do that. Payment processors want to hang on to your "extra" money if you use an app. After two trips, I now have cash escrowed against my will with three different payment outfits.

If you want to learn how it works, just buy an EV and take a long trip.

That said, if you want the highest odds of making the trip easily, make sure you drive a Tesla or have a NACs adapter for your car and be ready to use the Tesla network.

I could go on and on and on.

Yea those Mfers at Blink took my 20 bucks and the dang charger didn't work.

 

[whateg01]

Yea those Mfers at Blink took my 20 bucks and the dang charger didn't work.

That's almost as bad as the gas pumps being out of paper and me having to go in to get a receipt. Seriously. It pisses me off an unreasonable amount. I've started filling up rentals for work with less than $25 at a time so I don't have to have a receipt. Takes a little longer but I don't have to go inside. Ok. I feel better having gotten that out.

 

[larry4406]

That's almost as bad as the gas pumps being out of paper and me having to go in to get a receipt. Seriously. It pisses me off an unreasonable amount. I've started filling up rentals for work with less than $25 at a time so I don't have to have a receipt. Takes a little longer but I don't have to go inside. Ok. I feel better having gotten that out.

Pumps without paper should go into lockout with "Out of Order" displayed.

 

[whateg01]

Pumps without paper should go into lockout with "Out of Order" displayed.

Some of the stations I've been to would probably not have any functioning pumps! Serves them right!

 

[bwringer]

Pumps without paper should go into lockout with "Out of Order" displayed.

Agreed. This is one of my pettiest but deepest hatreds.

It's extra-fun when you go inside and the pinhead behind the counter doesn't know how to print out a receipt (usually they do, but it's an annoyance I'd rather do without).

In addition, I'd say 80% to 90% of my gas station stops are on a motorcycle, so then I have to park, take off my helmet, etc. to go get my furshlugginer receipt. Aaargghhhh.

For a time, I used to carry tape, paper and a pen to make "OUT OF ORDER" signs on paperless pumps. No idea if it ever did any good, but it helped me feel better.

This is also one of the reasons I use Costco gas whenever possible; they reliably stay on top of the receipt paper situation.

In any case, it's not a technology problem at all; it's simply a staffing and laziness problem. And has little to do with EV chargers anyway.

 

[PCustoms]

Why do so many people need pump receipts?

 

[whateg01]

Why do so many people need pump receipts?

Expense reports

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That's almost as bad as the gas pumps being out of paper and me having to go in to get a receipt. Seriously. It pisses me off an unreasonable amount.

Yeah same here. drives me nuts. i have to lock the car go inside wait in line.

Somebody isnt doing their job

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why do so many people need pump receipts?

Business expenses

 

[gtae07]

There is a gas station/convenience store not too far from my house. Not sure what the arrangement is but they have about 6 charging stations. It's about 5 blocks from a freeway junction and there are usually a couple cars charging. No idea what they do while waiting for a charge

The gas station down the street hosts a supercharger bank in addition to the gas pumps. It's actually a great location for it--the gas station is a local chain known for clean bathrooms and a surprisingly good little lunch counter (think mini Wawa or something). There are a couple fast food places across the parking lot too. It's easily the busiest of the three superchargers in the area. Good gas stations in good locations probably do good business with folks charging and getting drinks and a snack. It's no surprise Buc-ees got in on it.

Usually when we make the stop to charge going to or from Atlanta, by the time we've all hit the bathroom and herded the kid back to the car it's time to go. So all I'm really looking for in a supercharger stop is clean bathrooms and maybe a decent fast food option within walking distance. It's all we have time for.

But unless we're traveling, we charge at home.

Another issue is that EV chargers are so regularly vandalized; as you see in this thread, some people seem to be filled with immediate inchoate rage by the very thought of an EV charger, for reasons unfathomable to rational people.

There's that, but I figured most of the vandalism is really either tweakers trying to steal copper, folks being careless with the cords, or poor drivers who accidentally run into the chargers...