Where to have Monarch 10EE cross slide scraped?

[RogueFab]

Hey guys. I have a 10EE I am using here and there for shop projects, and the cross slide ways/dovetail are worn uneven. I took them apart and cleaned them and adjusted the gibs, and it is just like you'd expect, loose in the middle and tight at both ends. The main ways are in good enough shape, I just need to get the cross slide scraped. It is light enough I can ship it to save a few hundred bucks or get a better job done on it. I am in the black hole of machine tools and machine tool repair (Pacific Northwest - Oregon).

Any of you guys know of a good place to have the work done? Can be anywhere in the US. My company gets pretty good shipping rates on heavy stuff.

I was going to learn how to do it myself, but It has been a year and I don't think I am ever going to have that much time. We're too busy doing things that pay the bills (production OEM stuff).

Let me know your ideas! Here is a pic, since EVERY thread should have a pic. This is the one in our shop.

 

[Andrew S. Quinn]

ISSI machine in Indy does scraping,and machine rebuilding.
http://www.issindy.com/index.html

My company occasionally sends stuff over to be machined,and a few weeks ago when we were there,they were scraping a large Cincinnati surface grinder with Biax power scrapers. Pretty cool to watch them run the straight edge over it with Prussian blue,and then scrape down the high spots.

 

[DocsMachine]

Scraping the saddle won't fix the issue. If it was just the saddle that was worn, and not the bedways, the carriage would be tight all along it's travel. Being tight in one spot and loose in another is a sign the bed is worn.

Really, you need both the bed and saddle scraped, neither of which will be cheap.

AND, there's the issue that, once scraped, other steps have to be taken to realign the apron with the leadscrews and control rods. Generally that means milling the top of the apron an equal amount to what was removed from the saddle and ways, except that that then changes the gear mesh to the cross-slide feed. Not a problem if it's only a few thou, but will cause nontrivial problems and nasty wear if more than eight to ten thou.

It can be fixed, of course, unfortunately, not easily or quickly. It's a precision machine tool, and the repair has to be done precisely as well.

Doc.

 

[readymix]

We do hand scraping on lathes at WFW Industries semi often, and Doc is correct. It won't be cheap, and it does require more than just the saddle.

 

[Steinmetz]

Scraping the saddle won't fix the issue. If it was just the saddle that was worn, and not the bedways, the carriage would be tight all along it's travel. Being tight in one spot and loose in another is a sign the bed is worn.

Really, you need both the bed and saddle scraped, neither of which will be cheap.

AND, there's the issue that, once scraped, other steps have to be taken to realign the apron with the leadscrews and control rods. Generally that means milling the top of the apron an equal amount to what was removed from the saddle and ways, except that that then changes the gear mesh to the cross-slide feed. Not a problem if it's only a few thou, but will cause nontrivial problems and nasty wear if more than eight to ten thou.

It can be fixed, of course, unfortunately, not easily or quickly. It's a precision machine tool, and the repair has to be done precisely as well.

Doc.

Best entry of the week. Many thanks.

 

[DocsMachine]

There's a method one of the regulars over at Practical Machinist used on an old Hendey, and from what I've seen, it's likely one of the least expensive proper ways to fix a worn lathe.

Well, the absolute cheapest would be to learn how to scrape and do all the work yourself. But even then, you're going to have $500 to $1,000 in tooling (granite flat, straightedges, scrapers, hone, dye, rollers, etc. etc.)

But the method the fellow with the Hendey used, was to first have the bed professionally reground. It's not cheap, with something the size of a 10EE generally running about $1K or so, but it essentially restores the ways to brand new.

You'd need to look for a shop that might be closer, but I know there's reputable way-grinders in Seattle, Tacoma, Vancouver and California.

Then what he did was made fixtures that bolted to each corner of the saddle, in place of the way wipers. Each fixture had various jackscrews, so the saddle could be carefully adjusted, both for height and squareness.

One those fixtures were set, he simply applied a low-friction epoxy compound called Moglice, which is meant specifically for the repair of sliding machine ways like this.

He used a thick putty version that wouldn't run, applied a mold release to the lathe ways, and just used the ways themselves as a mold. He even molded in oil runners by simply applying thin strips of pinstripers' tape to the ways first.

There's a lot more to it than that, of course- the bed needs to be properly and carefully levelled, of course, so it isn't twisted when you do the molding, you have to get everything aligned very carefully, you have to be very certain the mold release is applied properly (it's a very powerful epoxy, and given the surface area, could bond the carriage permanently in place) and so on.

But the technique costs only a few hundred and some time, apart from the cost of having the ways ground. Still fairly expensive overall, but less so than having everything scraped (which could cost $3K to $5K, if not more) and solves the headaches of the apron and control spacings.

Doc.

 

[RogueFab]

Guys, I must have not described this well enough. My WAYS and SADDLE track nice and smooth, and flat/tight enough for what I need. It is JUST the cross slide dovetail that is clapped out. Someone took some heavy face cuts over and over or something... just the interface of the cross slide assembly to the apron. Not the apron to the ways. My X axis is nice and flat and tight enough. My Y axis is the only one that needs work

Better? Sorry for the ambiguity.

Very interesting and informative replies though. I'm glad you guys all contributed. Thank you so much.

 

[DocsMachine]

My apologies, I did miss that.

But most of my points still stand: While it would be somewhat quicker to scrape the cross slide due to it's smaller area, it'll still cost quite a bit. Scraping is a rare and valuable skill, and few competent practitioners will even look at your machine for less than $100 an hour or more.

And depending on how bad your wear is, you could easily be looking at 10 to 20 hours- a scraper would first have to scrape the dovetails on the saddle, which is four faces, all of which would need to be kept in careful, accurate alignment both with each other and to the ways of the bed.

Then the underside of the cross slide would have to be scraped to match- which in this case would be six faces, including two sides of the gib.

If you have to make a new gib, which is entirely possible if there's that much wear, expect to pay on the order of $500 just for that. It's a surprisingly complex and difficult to machine shape, which, after machining would still need to be scraped into a proper fit.

And then you would likely need to have the top of the cross slide scraped back to being flat in reference to the carriage and bedways.

Now, keep in mind that even heavy "roughing in" scraping might only remove 0.001" per pass- a power scraper can speed that up, of course, but you're still looking at ten passes just to level out 0.010" of wear.

Meaning that ten to twenty hours is by no means an exaggeration.

Of course, the way grinders can do the dovetail ways as well, but again, since you're paying more for the setup time and skill of the operator than the mere "machine-run" time, it will still cost quite a bit. Probably less than the scraper, though. I'd hazard a wild guess and say you'd still be looking at at least $500, but it'd be worth calling a grinder to find out.

Doc.

 

[RogueFab]

My apologies, I did miss that.

But most of my points still stand: While it would be somewhat quicker to scrape the cross slide due to it's smaller area, it'll still cost quite a bit. Scraping is a rare and valuable skill, and few competent practitioners will even look at your machine for less than $100 an hour or more.

And depending on how bad your wear is, you could easily be looking at 10 to 20 hours- a scraper would first have to scrape the dovetails on the saddle, which is four faces, all of which would need to be kept in careful, accurate alignment both with each other and to the ways of the bed.

Then the underside of the cross slide would have to be scraped to match- which in this case would be six faces, including two sides of the gib.

If you have to make a new gib, which is entirely possible if there's that much wear, expect to pay on the order of $500 just for that. It's a surprisingly complex and difficult to machine shape, which, after machining would still need to be scraped into a proper fit.

And then you would likely need to have the top of the cross slide scraped back to being flat in reference to the carriage and bedways.

Now, keep in mind that even heavy "roughing in" scraping might only remove 0.001" per pass- a power scraper can speed that up, of course, but you're still looking at ten passes just to level out 0.010" of wear.

Meaning that ten to twenty hours is by no means an exaggeration.

Of course, the way grinders can do the dovetail ways as well, but again, since you're paying more for the setup time and skill of the operator than the mere "machine-run" time, it will still cost quite a bit. Probably less than the scraper, though. I'd hazard a wild guess and say you'd still be looking at at least $500, but it'd be worth calling a grinder to find out.

Doc.

Doc,

Thank you. That makes sense. I wasn't expecting this to be a couple hundred bucks, I'm just glad it isn't going to be something that starts at 3 or 4 k.

I have been looking for a used saddle, but to the point of alignment and wear on the bottom of the saddle, I don't even know if I would come out ahead!

Joe