PWC Repair
Well-known member
I'm trying to decide if I want to buy a new panel or use the one that was given to me used. What.s the difference in type BR, CH, or QO??
Panel I have is QO style Square D.
Panel I have is QO style Square D.
which breaker box style
- Thread starter PWC Repair
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The BR line is bottom of the line garbage, type CH is the last decent residential panel, if you already have a SQ D QO panel, that is the one to use, unless the panel is obsolete then it is always best to stay with the same make & breaker type.
rburke65
Well-known member
The Sq. D "QO" is a real good panel. I think the "QO" means quick open. I have a CH....Cutler Hammer....and a Sq. D panels in my home....all electric, since 1970. I'd keep the Sq. D if you it will give you enough slots for your circuits.
sberry
Banned
I dont care for the BR either. I dont like the hardware and some brackets as I recall. The local lumberyard still sells that stuff. It's been a while since I used one. CH is great, our dealers are few here, I personally use QO, I started with it.
Today would likely use Homeline, just simply due to cost and it's everywhere.
Today would likely use Homeline, just simply due to cost and it's everywhere.
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Other things being equal, it is recommended to use the same type of panel that is already installed. That way you can swap breakers in a pinch.
A used panel can be a pain depending on what state it is in and how many holes are already punched out. It also doesn't save much unless you need a 200amp main or similar.
A used panel can be a pain depending on what state it is in and how many holes are already punched out. It also doesn't save much unless you need a 200amp main or similar.
rburke65
Well-known member
Yes, Homeline is prolific and the QO panels are more commercial now where we used to install them in homes when we rewired.
ddawg16
Well-known member
I have the QO panel.....Nice panel....and you will always be able to get breakers for it.
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
I've always liked the QO, they're an industry (and industrial) standard, breakers are common, and you have more options than if you go with the lower (or "homeowner") grades.
I have Zinsco right now, fortunately (for us, so far) we've had no issues (knock on wood) but we're also looking at the next big job being rewiring the house using QO breaker gear, just because if and when the Sylvania/Zinsco starts to go, you end up with real bad problems.
I have Zinsco right now, fortunately (for us, so far) we've had no issues (knock on wood) but we're also looking at the next big job being rewiring the house using QO breaker gear, just because if and when the Sylvania/Zinsco starts to go, you end up with real bad problems.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
The sq D home line and QO are both good panels.
Internally the only difference between home line and QO breakers is the visa trip,we've used the QO on commercial work and home line for residential stuff since the early-mid 90s without problems.
Internally the only difference between home line and QO breakers is the visa trip,we've used the QO on commercial work and home line for residential stuff since the early-mid 90s without problems.
pattenp
Well-known member
When you say QO is the one you have, is that the one given to you or that's currently in your house? You should stick with the brand in the house if possible unless it's an out-of-date crappy brand. I assume this panel is for a new shop/garage.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
QO panels are available with either tinned copper or tinned aluminum bussing.
The Homeline Series panels are available with tinned aluminum only.
The Homeline Series panels are available with tinned aluminum only.
OP
PWC Repair
Well-known member
The free QO panel is in good shape, and he gave me enough single and double breakers to fill it and then some. It's a 125a with about 20 slots. I don't need all the slots, it's for my new shop, and it was free. I guess I'll just use it then. It came from a building that was remodeled and updated to 200a.
pattenp
Well-known member
Any open unused knockouts need to have knockout plugs installed.
OP
PWC Repair
Well-known member
Will definitely do that.
A larger panel is a plus, may not need it but good to have, leave the unused breakers in the panel & mark them as "spare".
grantw
Well-known member
I went with a 80 circuit 40 space copper bus Siemens panel for a new build. My only regret? ONE local hardware store carries 1 each of the 15A and 20A AFCI breaker. None of the local big stores carry the Siemens breakers. The do carry the eaton stuff, but Siemens / Eaton are not listed to work with each other.
If buying a new panel, I'd do it again though. None of the local big-box stores had a nice big 200A panel.
If buying a new panel, I'd do it again though. None of the local big-box stores had a nice big 200A panel.
Skiff Builder
Well-known member
Last panel I installed was a 200A Siemens Pl copper bus.Came with 2 ground bars installed, all screws in neutral and ground buses were backed out for quick install.
On the temporary service pole outside I used a Homeline panel . Held up well out in the salt air for a couple years.
Throughout my state I notice that Home Depot has no consistency in brands of panels and breakers carried from store to store.
Skiff
On the temporary service pole outside I used a Homeline panel . Held up well out in the salt air for a couple years.
Throughout my state I notice that Home Depot has no consistency in brands of panels and breakers carried from store to store.
Skiff
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alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Lowes carry Siemens circuit breakers.
Also since it is used: make sure it has the right cover and screws, and the label on the door is intact. If your shop is a separate structure then you need a main breaker in it. Also remove the bonding jumper and add ground bars separate from the neutrals.
Lastly - assume your service is single phase and the panel is single phase. or 3ø and 3ø
Lastly - assume your service is single phase and the panel is single phase. or 3ø and 3ø
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Only required if more than 6 breaker handles...but is nice to have regardless...
OP
PWC Repair
Well-known member
Panel came with a 100 amp main. It is single phase. It will be a sub panel. I planned on running 4-4-4 to the shop (157ft away) and driving ground rods at the shop. Thats how my old house is set up, even though the grounds and neutrals are all on the same bar in my main house panel. Is this the correct way?
4 gauge copper needs protected by a 90 amp breaker at the main panel since it will be a feeder, not service. Then the 100amp main breaker in your panel becomes the disconnect.
What kinds of concurrent loads do you anticipate in your shop? A large electric heater would create some voltage drop at that distance.
What kinds of concurrent loads do you anticipate in your shop? A large electric heater would create some voltage drop at that distance.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
No that is incorrect.
All new subpanels must have a 4-wire feeder with an isolated neutral bar. Grounding electrodes are also required.
The example of the main in your old house panel is not a good one because main service panels are the only place where neutrals and grounds SHOULD be bonded and thus have 3-wire feeds which is the service entrance.
Read #3 in this thread:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460
#4 al is limited to 65a.
Depending on your loads, even #2 al may be too small for 157'.
What loads will you have?
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zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Concur !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Not 100% true !
Somewhere about 20-30 years ago, Square D changed the buss bar on the QO panels. I don't think it affected any of the "standard" breakers, but the newer tandems will NOT fit in the slot. Square D no longer sells the old style tandem, but if you know the part number you can find them online.
Lucky for me because I did a kitchen remodel at my daughter's house and need 4 more circuits. If I had not found those tandems I would have had to swap out the panel.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
If you need to start adding tandem breakers it's time for a bigger panel.
I'm amazed at how many 10-20 year old houses I go into and find half the panel filled with tandem breakers.
I'm amazed at how many 10-20 year old houses I go into and find half the panel filled with tandem breakers.
The FIB
Well-known member
As far as quality and reliability goes, I have to go with the QO.
If you need to start adding tandem breakers it's time for a bigger panel.
I'm amazed at how many 10-20 year old houses I go into and find half the panel filled with tandem breakers.
New houses before the AFCI requirements being full of twin breakers, also.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
OP
PWC Repair
Well-known member
With heat, lights, air compressor, fan, and water well all running at once will be not quite 70 amps. More like 40 or less at any given time.
The diagrams are nice but i understand wiring pretty well. So what i wanted to do is actually fine just not to code any more. Well i guess I'll just run 4-4-4-6 then.....copper. Im not fond of aluminum wire.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Not only is it not to code but it is NOT fine.
Using a 3-wire feeder for a subpanel creates a shock potential.
This is why the NEC changed the code on this.
OP
PWC Repair
Well-known member
I understand. I'm just thinking out loud that since millions of homes and sub panels are wired like that, AND they only changed it in '08............ I have to assume its because some ******* did something really stupid, then got a good lawyer who was also crooked, then they went to court with some windbag money grubbing dip$hit judge who wouldn't know anything about electrical if it bit him in the ***, and somebody got paid. Just like the lady that got burnt with her hot coffee, or the kid that got scalded when he stood on the open oven door when mommy was cooking so now they all come with an anti-tip bracket. I could go on and on about how frivolously stupid many lawsuits are and the damn judges allow it to happen........rant over.
Thank you for the help and i will run it to new code standards.
Thank you for the help and i will run it to new code standards.
Years ago I ran a 3-wire feeder to the building that my shop was later attached to, it's a decision that have come to regret, although it's not that hard to remedy the situation.
arkieguide
Well-known member
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- Aug 10, 2017
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I would use what I have - nothing wrong with the panel you were given ! I spent 60 yrs in the electrical trade, inside wireman and elec. eng.