Which chop saw to buy?

[McVicker]

I'm in need of a chop saw for fabrication purposes and I'm stuck between 2 saws. I will be using the saw for 95% aluminum tube and other various aluminum pieces and the other 5 will most likey be for wood working. So my thinking was either the Dewalt 872 or the Dewalt 716 with a diablo blade. They're basicly the same price at right around $400. If anyone has a better option please fill me in.
Oh and I have searched, but I'm still a little stuck.

-Dan

 

[dink]

I'm in need of a chop saw for fabrication purposes and I'm stuck between 2 saws. I will be using the saw for 95% aluminum tube and other various aluminum pieces and the other 5 will most likey be for wood working. So my thinking was either the Dewalt 872 or the Dewalt 716 with a diablo blade. They're basicly the same price at right around $400. If anyone has a better option please fill me in.
Oh and I have searched, but I'm still a little stuck.

-Dan

Look at the Makita chop saw....I have heard wonderful things about theres

http://www.makita.com/menu.php?pg=product_det&tag=2414B
http://www.makita.com/menu.php?pg=product_det&tag=LC1230

 

[-lecroix-]

Not sure if this is the case with the Diablo blade, but be very careful cutting aluminum if this is a friction type blade.

Aluminum will "load up" the wheel and eventually cause it to fail. If anyone happens to be in the path of that wheel when it comes apart they can be seriously injured.

 

[BoostAddiction]

I just finished a couple of projects where I had to cut aluminum tubing.

I used my cheapy HF chop saw (on sale at $49) and used a special blade for cutting aluminum. As mentioned above, you can't use the regular abrasive blades the saws normally have in them for mild steel if you are cutting aluminum.

Mine works fine for the limited use it sees. I'm sure I would be using a Makita if I used one every day.

Since it is from HF, I do check it very carefully each time before I use it. But it has been fine for every project I've used it for so far.

Just one data point.

-Will

 

[MXtras]

I use a direct drive (no belt!) compound miter saw with an 80 tooth, triple chip, carbide tipped blade and I cut aluminum on a daily basis.

I have chopped solid aluminum - 4"X6" - with a beautiful finish. A spring pass on the material with a good, sharp blade and a light shot of WD-40 and the finish appears ground and is flat within .003" (measured, not a guess).

You need to cover the motor vents with filter media of some sort to keep the motor from injesting chips. Some folks use nylon stockings. I use a sock or a lightweight rag and I change it or clean it quite often - about every week or so.

I cut aluminum tubing nearly every day and have been for over four years with the same saw. I am on my 9th blade if that gives you any idea how much I have done this.

I have been into countless debates with folks that say you shouldn't use such a saw for such a task. Whatever. It works and it works extremely well for a fraction of the price of a cold saw. Just use common sense and the appropriate protection - glasses and earplugs are required.

When cutting, you can't baby-foot through - the blade will likely clog. You need to cut in a manner that keeps the chips flying off the blade rather than collecting in the teeth and this requires a small amount of aggression. Light cutting pressure in solid material will turn your $95 blade into a spinning aluminum loli-pop, and it's not pretty. Mist the blade with WD-40 every once in a while and don't cut after midnight unless you don't really care for your neighbors anyway....

Scott

 

[McVicker]

Thanks for all the comments, it looks like I could go with a cheaper miter saw and get the same results, so maybe I'll take that route.
MXtras,
So you're saying you should use a decent amount of force when cutting instead of letting the blade do the cutting?

-Dan

 

[brianpgriset]

If you can I would recommend AGAINST a chop saw and say get yourself a nice vertical/horizontal bandsaw. Think of all the benefits:

- Increased blade life
- WAY less noise
- WAY less mess
- Better Miters
- Can be used for small amounts of vertical cutting

There might be a few more but those are the big ones. The only real benefit I see with chop saws is portability and price (sometimes).

Anyways, I was about to get one too, then I thought about it and went with a Jet HVBS-56M, one of the basic 4x6 bandsaws, similar to versions from HF, Northern Tool, Homier, Grizzly, etc...

I got mine for $280 used, and it has worked out great. Lots of people have sucess with the newer (red) HF verrsion, and it goes on sale often for $150.

I suggest looking into one.

 

[MXtras]

MXtras,
So you're saying you should use a decent amount of force when cutting instead of letting the blade do the cutting?
-Dan

Yup. Don't go stupid on it, but yes - push the blade just a bit. If you let the blade "do it's job" (as even I would normally say) it tends to foul up fast. Your mileage may vary.

My opinion - The strong advantage I see over a band saw (of which I have) is speed and more importantly - adjility. I can switch angles in a few seconds on a miter saw and not have to reset the blade guides. It takes a few minutes to adjust to cut an accurate angle on a bandsaw like the one pictured above - the nicer band saws accomodate angled cuts better but you still have blade guide issues. Make a band saw that has the same features as a miter saw and I would still use the miter saw because it is much, much faster. Plus - try cutting a compound angle on a band saw....good luck. The cost is a wash - a strong miter saw cost more than that Jet band saw pictured above. Of course, if all you do is make straight cuts and your time is not really an issue, a bandsaw might be the way to go. I have both and I use them both.

Scott

 

[mulepackin]

We've had great luck with our Makita. Have use it for 15 yrs. alot of fabrication. No problems.

 

[brianpgriset]

My opinion - The strong advantage I see over a band saw (of which I have) is speed and more importantly - adjility. I can switch angles in a few seconds on a miter saw and not have to reset the blade guides. It takes a few minutes to adjust to cut an accurate angle on a bandsaw like the one pictured above - the nicer band saws accomodate angled cuts better but you still have blade guide issues. Make a band saw that has the same features as a miter saw and I would still use the miter saw because it is much, much faster. Plus - try cutting a compound angle on a band saw....good luck. The cost is a wash - a strong miter saw cost more than that Jet band saw pictured above. Of course, if all you do is make straight cuts and your time is not really an issue, a bandsaw might be the way to go. I have both and I use them both.

Scott

Sounds like some good points here, especially from someone who sounds like he's used both extensivly!

Just another thing I thought of, SOME stock is a real PITA to cut on bandsaw, especially angle. Chopsaws do have their calling.

 

[McVicker]

Well once again, thanks for the imput. I will be doing a good deal of angle cuts, so the chop saw is definatly the way to go. I have plans for a drill press soon after the chop saw and eventually a band saw. Now it's just finding the right one. It's tough to choose these days when you have options like laser angle finders, wings and waffle iron attachments.

0Dan

 

[1320stang]

I'd go with a cold saw or use one of those metal cutting carbide tiped blades if you're going to be welding this aluminum. The impurities from an abrasive blade will screw up your welding, plus the abrasive blades tend to flex a bit.

 

[MXtras]

Don't get confused here. A chop saw, a cold saw and a miter saw are three very different pieces of equipment.

A chop saw uses an abrasive blade and is used for steel or very light cutting in AL - and as mentioned, if you plan to weld the AL you do not want to use this machine for AL. These saws sell for between $80 - $250. The use of abrasive cutting blades on AL is strongly discouraged by me and others that process a lot of AL. A chop saw is handy for straight cuts in steel but the design of 99% of the abrasive chop saws make them incapable of being efficient for cutting angles or changing the set up quickly. Use a chop saw with an abrasive blade for steel, not AL.

A cold saw uses a carbide blade (typically solid carbide) and spins very slowly - about 60 RPM. They are expensive and out of the question for most hobbiests - somewhere between $1800 - $45,000+. The finish these saws leave is so superior that the material cut typically does not even have a burr - it has a sharp edge, but no burr. These are awesome for just about any material except wood products. They will cut steel, titanium, aluminum, stainless - just about anything. Coolant is typically used during cutting. These are the Cadillac of saws for a fabricator.

A miter saw uses a typical saw blade and is most commonly used for cutting wood. RPM is pretty high. There are plenty of blades available for cutting everything from wood to steel. These are avialable everywhere and can be had for between $100 - $800. This is the type of saw I use most frequently. I use a carbide tipped blade for cutting aluminum and wood and I use an abrasive blade for cutting steel although the saw I have doesn't really have enough HP to drive the abrasive blade as well as the chop saw I have, but the flexibility of the miter saw makes it the best all-around saw in my shop. When it is destroyed, I will just buy another - likely in another 5 years or so.

And we all know what a band saw looks like...

Good point about the abrasive blade, stang. I hate them, but they do have their purpose.

Scott

 

[McVicker]

alrighty then, that pretty much clears everything up. I will be welding the aluminum I am cutting, so either a cold saw or a miter saw is what I'll be needing. Is the Dewalt 872 considered a cold saw? The Dewalt is only around $400 and does not use coolant. I know what type of saw you mean when you say cold saw....I've seen them before and they tend to be very expensive.
In either case, anny recommendations for a miter saw around $250-400?

edit:
Link to Dewalt

 

[MXtras]

DeWalt no longer makes a direct drive 12" saw from what I can find, so I can not really make a recommendation to you other than look at 12", compound miter saws with direct drive. You don't want the belt - been there. You also might want to stay away from Delta - very underpowered for cutting anything other than a 2X4.

DeWalt doesn't make a Cold Saw, but if you look at the Wolfe link below, you can see they make some pretty HD saws - much like Rockwell used to.

You won't find a saw for less than about $3K in the links below, but I figured this would be a good place to share them:

Cold Saws:
http://www.scotchman.com
http://www.bii1.com - nice cold saws, industrial
http://www.kmtsaw.com
http://www.wolfemachinery.com/prodline.htm - industrialDeWalt stuff - looks like Rockwell saws)
http://www.originalsaw.com/horizontal.htm - heavy radial arm saws
http://www.brobo-usa.com/Super315A.cfm - smaller cold saws - HD
http://hawksawblades.com
http://www.clausing-industrial.com/Products/Saws/index.htm - band saws, cold saws

Band Saws
http://www.americanmachinetools.com (other metal working also)
http://www.ellissaw.com
http://www.homier.com – band saws
http://www.hemsaw.com - big band saws, cnc
http://www.clausing-industrial.com - band saws, cold saws

If the links don't work, you are on your own. I just thought you would like to see what's out there. These links are some of my stash of info when I was researching an approach to cut my raw materials. I ended up selecting a 12" compound miter saw available from my local Lowes for the short term, but the Brobo cold saw and the Ellis or HE&M band saw are in my future - cold saw first. Hopefully later this year on the cold saw.

Scott

 

[MXtras]

Here is a brief list of advantages and disadvantages for various saws. This information mostly came from Brobo in one of the links listed above. I think the info is reasonably accurate and complete.

Abrasive cut-off saw:
low cost machine
low cost blade
portable
can cut fully hardened steel, HSS etc.
cuts are not straight
efficiently cuts 90 degree cuts only
rough cut, large burr
“Grinds” not “cuts”
heat burns and stresses steel
sparks create fire hazard
high noise level
dirty – abrasive grit and grind particles scatter
blades disintegrate rapidly
eye protection required due to high velocity particles
non-ferrous metals load up blade

Carbide “dry-cut”, hi-RPM saw
moderate machine cost
fast cutting cycle
OK cut quality
Portable
high blade cost
dangerous chips and carbide particles
Miter cuts efficiently
high noise level
light-duty vise

Horizontal bandsaw (small type)
moderate machine cost
moderate blade cost
cutting capacity
self-feeding (some models)
slow cut rate
no mitre cuts (except high-priced models)
rough cut
blade can “wander”
blades not re-sharpenable

Cold saw
straightest cuts
smoothest cuts
mitre cuts both ways
fast cutting cycle
no heating of workpiece
little or no burr
low cost blade sharpening
high blade cost
lowest cost per cut
no high speed particles or chips
3-phase motor for economy and durability – high voltage options
higher machine cost
cutting capacity limited by blade size (for example 4” for 14” saw)

 

[TNToy]

This isn't directed at the original poster of this thread, but for anyone out there that does rollcage fabrication... a decent chopsaw is a must.

I rarely use a holesaw-type tubing notcher any more. Usually I just notch tubing with a chopsaw, touch it up with a grinder if needed, and it's done.

Here's the basic how-to I posted on Pirate4x4 a while back. It doesn't make any sense until you SEE it done:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=456800

 

[McVicker]

wow, this is some great info...I really appriciate everyone taking the time to explain everything.
Scott,
Do you have an example of a direct drive saw? I was looking at a few different miter saws and none said either belt driven or direct drive.

-Dan

Edit:
found an interesting site that lists belt and direct drive saws.
LINK

 

[MXtras]

If the motor is inline with the blade, it's direct. If the motor is offset from center and there is an oval plastic guard in between the end of the motor and the blade shaft it's belt drive.

All of DeWalt's current 12" compound miter saws appear to be belt driven. Their 12" single angle miter saw is direct drive.

The 705S (pictured below) is very similar to what I have - mine is just a bit older....and dirtier. This is a compound miter, 12", direct drive saw. All the sites I have looked at claim that this saw is discontinued. Why? I have no idea. It's an expensive saw - maybe the price killed it. It's on sale on www.tylertool.com - run over ther and see if they have any left.



Scott

 

[MXtras]

This saw looks good, but I just don't know about the gear/belt drive. Having the motor up out of the way is a good thing but I had a bad experience with the first upper-end saw I tried that had a belt drive. I vowed "never again", but you might be willing to give it a shot. If it's available from Lowes, buy it and use it for a month - if you don't like it, and then take it back for a different model. The belt drive version I purchased lasted about 2 weeks, then it began to release the majic smoke - I returned it and upgraded to a more expensive, direct drive unit.

This is from www.tylertools.com (I have no affiliation) and it is DeWalt (I have no affiliation) model #716

Scott (I have no affiliation)

 

[MXtras]

Oh - and go here if you need parts for anything DeWalt:

http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/dewalt-tool-parts.html?gclid=CK_iqvPFgooCFTBcFQodBTELQA

(Again - no affiliation)

Scott

 

[1320stang]

The best tool I've ever seen for notching rollbar tubing was a Mitler Bros. tubing notcher. It uses a mill bit and has a vise that you clamp the tube in and feed it into the machine. Only bad deal is they're about $2200.

 

[MXtras]

This is what I use to notch tubing:

 

[1320stang]

Yeah, that's the next step up from a Mitler machine. Little more versatile.....

 

[TNToy]

Even when I've got access to an end-mill that'll do a perfect notch on tubing, I still use a chopsaw. 90% of the quality, and 10 times as fast.

The only time I wish I had something along those lines is when I need a tricky notch where 3 or more tubes meet - and it won't cut those anyway.

 

[l_bilyk]

If the motor is inline with the blade, it's direct. If the motor is offset from center and there is an oval plastic guard in between the end of the motor and the blade shaft it's belt drive.

All of DeWalt's current 12" compound miter saws appear to be belt driven. Their 12" single angle miter saw is direct drive.

The 705S (pictured below) is very similar to what I have - mine is just a bit older....and dirtier. This is a compound miter, 12", direct drive saw. All the sites I have looked at claim that this saw is discontinued. Why? I have no idea. It's an expensive saw - maybe the price killed it. It's on sale on www.tylertool.com - run over ther and see if they have any left.



Scott

I don't think it's going away.. it will probably come back as a 706 with one of those lever handles for locking the detents, like they have on all their other saws

 

[McVicker]

alright so basically
Belt drive - the motor is mounted away from the saw blade and handle

Direct drive - The motor is mounted pretty much right next to the blade and on the handle

Just for future people who may be as thick as I am

 

[bmwpower]

This is what I use to notch tubing:

Did you rebuild that thing and paint it blue? If so, that must have taken forever.

 

[l_bilyk]

I don't think it's going away.. it will probably come back as a 706 with one of those lever handles for locking the detents, like they have on all their other saws

Nevermind that... you 705 is basically the same as the 715... the 715 is the same thing as a 705 except for the newer style handle