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Which multi-process welder to chose between these two options?

drummerdimitri

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I'd like to start a metal fabrication business and as you all know, that cannot be achieved without a decent welding machine.

That being said, I'm not sure which of these two options to go for:

Lincoln Power Mig 360MP or the Fronius TPS 320i.

They both seems to be able to do stick, TIG and MIG welding.

I've chosen these two as I'd like to only have one machine dedicated to welding in my shop and because they are available locally.

Since I'm new to welding and have no prior experience whatsoever, which of these would you recommend purchasing?

I'll be welding all kinds of metals such as mild steel, stainless steel, aluminium, titanium etc. so I need a reliable machine that will grow along with my skill level as time passes by.
 
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didit

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I know you want to make a choice between only two options but in the real world most metal fabricator businesses will have dedicated machines for different materials and purpose. It just eliminates set-up time with less trial and error and provides greater versatility. But, I get your line of thinking and you do have to start somewhere. With no prior experience, I would recommend taking a course to get some first hand knowledge so you can make a better choice.
 

lis2323

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I would say they are both good but without further research I would lean towards the Fronius. European weld technology is miles ahead of US.
 

Turkey_Bones

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I am purely a hobby person that does stick and flux core with much lower end machines than those but I would also make sure you budget for a good helmet, gloves, and material cutting tools. I spend far more time doing prep work than actually welding. What I mean by this is cutting stock using my stationary bandsaw, portaband, milwaukee metal cutting circular, hackzall, and grinders. So make sure you have at least a few grinders at a minimum in the budget.

I also agree with previous poster that a lot of shops that want to do high production tend to have layouts for each type of welding. An example would be a dedicated tig machine with a rotary table among other tig eccentric things. The specialty circumstances for things like galvanized or stainless are worth thinking about too. Also I would look into gas costs and dealers in your region.
 
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drummerdimitri

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I am purely a hobby person that does stick and flux core with much lower end machines than those but I would also make sure you budget for a good helmet, gloves, and material cutting tools. I spend far more time doing prep work than actually welding. What I mean by this is cutting stock using my stationary bandsaw, portaband, milwaukee metal cutting circular, hackzall, and grinders. So make sure you have at least a few grinders at a minimum in the budget.

I also agree with previous poster that a lot of shops that want to do high production tend to have layouts for each type of welding. An example would be a dedicated tig machine with a rotary table among other tig eccentric things. The specialty circumstances for things like galvanized or stainless are worth thinking about too. Also I would look into gas costs and dealers in your region.

Thanks for the informative reply.

I'm already a general fabrication hobbyist that wants to go commercial so naturally, I already own quite a few powered hand tools.

Never thought of looking at the gas prices but I really wont know what my costs are at first as such things can only be know after first hand experience at the workshop.
 
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drummerdimitri

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I would say they are both good but without further research I would lean towards the Fronius. European weld technology is miles ahead of US.

I'm also leaning the Fronius way as it looks way more professional and serious than the Lincoln.

They are priced similarly as well!
 

bigmaq

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Don't forget about possible resale value. In a couple of years you may want to upgrade to a another machine and buying one today with a good resale value will help with the costs of a new machine. Do you have a version of "Craigslist" in Beirut? You may to check to see what's popular in the second-hand market.
 

Noworries

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Ok.. i gotta say... OP stated he is new to welding and has no prior experience in welding whatsoever and he intends to weld stainless and aluminum as well as steel... I would seriously recommend you get a cheap inverter fluxcore machine and then practice 24/7 for about 6 months. While welding is "relatively " easy it is by no means intuitive... fabing up stuff implies some level of structural integrity and strength as well as good looking welds... man I wish you the best but were it me... I would not spend a **** ton of money just to find out I totally **** at welding... . Having said all that, my last welding cert. was 3G 1" to unlimited.. I personally have a Vulcan Omnipro 220... it has done everything I have asked of it with no issues..850 bucks!
 

dnschmidt

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Fronius, It's about as high end as it gets. Since you're in the Europe sphere of influence I highly recommend trying out STEL of Italy as well.
 

jonesg

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I'm a retired baker.
if you asked me which mixing machine to get I would say learn how to bake first.
It takes a good while to learn a trade working around a master for guidance,
not just a few classes.
 

tonyciambrone

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This is almost exactly the same as the apprentice mechanic who wants to buy a Snap-On 72" box. 99/100 times it's gonna end up on CL 6 months later.

The idea of starting a business centered around something you have little knowledge of and no experience is also a little concerning- particularly since it's a skilled trade.

Once you figure out what fabrication you will be doing- that dictates the type of machine. I highly doubt you are going to start out with any sort of need for 320A. I also doubt you will need both wire feed and TIG capability.

If you are going to be doing stainless and aluminum, get an AC/DC tig. If you're just going to be sticking mild steel together, get a wire feeder. You're going to need some starting budget for all the safety gear, a big bottle of gas and a buncha refills until you actually become a competent welder...
 

PierceA

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I'd recommend finding a partner for your fledgling fabrication business who is an accomplished welder.
For you to single-handedly become a GOOD welder as well as fabricator from where you are right now is not practical or wise. GOOD welds on products you make and sell are vital.

Over a year or two you will learn by observation and may then be able to contribute to the welding needed for your fabricated items..

From my perspective, since I have no clue WHAT size, volume or degree of precision needed, I'd not try to be the welder for your business.

I've been stick welding for 50+ years and have a MIG which is great for only 'SOME" jobs. and I recently purchased a good but inexpensive all in one TIG AC/DC machine.
The AHP 200. A very capable machine and for fabrication of ones and twos of items it's great.

When I'm in over my head trying to weld something that I've never done before.. I get a professional welder to help and keep me out of trouble.

Best of luck with your pursuits.
PierceA.
 
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drummerdimitri

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I should have mentioned that I will not be operating the business for at least the next couple of years as I would have had time to take courses and learn from practicing on personal projects first as I am coming from a DIY hobbyist background.

That being said, I am able to stretch my budget to purchase top end equipment and tools as I see myself invested in this business in the long run with goals of eventually going into CNC machining, laser cleaning, and 3D printing metal parts once I've had the opportunity to grow the business to the point where I can actually purchase the necessary machines to achieve my target.
 

American Locomotive

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The Lincoln 360MP is a pretty high end machine that offers similar features to the Foronius. The Lincoln also has a much higher duty cycle, which means you can weld at higher currents for longer.

But the machines are really pretty similar overall

The most important thing for running a business will be support and service. In the U.S., there are Lincoln service centers and dealers everywhere. The same may not be true for Lebanon. I would see which brand has more dealers and service centers. If your welder breaks and you can't fix it, it's worthless...
 
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drummerdimitri

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The Lincoln 360MP is a pretty high end machine that offers similar features to the Foronius. The Lincoln also has a much higher duty cycle, which means you can weld at higher currents for longer.

But the machines are really pretty similar overall

The most important thing for running a business will be support and service. In the U.S., there are Lincoln service centers and dealers everywhere. The same may not be true for Lebanon. I would see which brand has more dealers and service centers. If your welder breaks and you can't fix it, it's worthless...

Thanks for the info, that's quite valuable information.

I realized it doesn't have an AC TIG process. Is this a deal breaker for aluminium or are there other ways to weld that cleanly?

I have established a friendly relationship with my local Lincoln dealer as he is the only one (tiny country) so might be going the 'Murica way after all!
 
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Chuck122

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Hi,
While my business is not strictly welding (more millwrighting really), welding is kind of necessary on most projects. Keep in mind my setup is geared towards mobile work.
I have a trailblazer engine drive, an XMT 350 multiprocess power source and a miller suitcase. Both machines will run stick, both machines will run the suitcase for mig/fluxcore work. The trailblazer can supply welding current and auxiliary power for welding outdoors or anywhere that electricity is not available and the XMT can run on anything from 240v single phase to 575 3 phase. The multi voltage capabilities are kind of a big deal for mobile work as different plants use different voltages (or even different areas in a single plant for that matter).The suitcase wire feeder is very convenient in the field because you can run leads to the feeder quite far from your power source and just carry the suicase rather than the whole machine.
I personally like miller stuff because they all the same 14 pins plug for remote control. So all the mchines use the same foot pedal for tig or wireless remote for stick and mig.
Its not a cheap setup by any stretch but it can be purchased in steps depending on where you are going with your venture
 

dr_clyde

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The Lincoln has a pulsed TIG function.

Wouldn't that work for TIG welding aluminium? It's basically a square wave :dunno:

Not really, as it doesn't have the electrode positive side of the waveform to clean off the surface oxides.

It is possible to weld aluminum with DC tig, but it is fairly specialized, requires pure helium gas, and really requires quite a bit more skill than AC.

For all intents and purposes, you need AC for tig welding aluminum.
 
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drummerdimitri

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Not really, as it doesn't have the electrode positive side of the waveform to clean off the surface oxides.

It is possible to weld aluminum with DC tig, but it is fairly specialized, requires pure helium gas, and really requires quite a bit more skill than AC.

For all intents and purposes, you need AC for tig welding aluminum.

In that case, it seems both of my initially stated options are not suitable to my needs unless the Fronius can do AC TIG as its not really clear.

Would I then have to purchase a seperate MIG and TIG/Stick welder?

With a budget of around 6000$, what welder(s) would you recommend?
 

American Locomotive

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In that case, it seems both of my initially stated options are not suitable to my needs unless the Fronius can do AC TIG as its not really clear.

Would I then have to purchase a seperate MIG and TIG/Stick welder?

With a budget of around 6000$, what welder(s) would you recommend?
You need to define exactly what you want to do first.

If you plan to do general fabrication, than the Lincoln or Foronius will do what you want. You'll be able to TIG, Stick and MIG weld steel/iron, and you'll be able to MIG weld aluminum. You can also TIG braze with a DC only machine.

Once you get your shop off the ground, if you find you need to do a lot of aluminum or precise TIG work, then I would look into getting a dedicated TIG machine.

The Lincoln has a pulsed TIG function.

Wouldn't that work for TIG welding aluminium? It's basically a square wave :dunno:
You need the polarity reversal component of AC for TIG welding aluminum. This provides a cleaning action that helps remove the oxides from the weld puddle.

Pulsed DC TIG just constantly varies the power level to help improve weld quality and reduce the amount of heat into the part.
 
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drummerdimitri

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You need to define exactly what you want to do first.

If you plan to do general fabrication, than the Lincoln or Foronius will do what you want. You'll be able to TIG, Stick and MIG weld steel/iron, and you'll be able to MIG weld aluminum. You can also TIG braze with a DC only machine.

Once you get your shop off the ground, if you find you need to do a lot of aluminum or precise TIG work, then I would look into getting a dedicated TIG machine.


You need the polarity reversal component of AC for TIG welding aluminum. This provides a cleaning action that helps remove the oxides from the weld puddle.

Pulsed DC TIG just constantly varies the power level to help improve weld quality and reduce the amount of heat into the part.

I've discovered a Kemppi dealer in my city and since I am a sucker for European design/engineering, I've decided to not get a lincoln welder after all.

Can't seem to find a multiprocess welder that does AC TIG so would most probably need to get a TIG/Stick welder and a seperate MIG welder.

I cannot say for sure what my requirements are other than I want to be able to weld all the commonly used metals.

With regards to thickness, I wont' be doing heavy industrial fabrication so a max of 20 mm mild steel, 5mm copper/brass, 2-3 mm stainless steel, 20 mm of aluminium etc.

I would also consider blowing my budget on a TIG machine at first and then later purchase a MIG machine as I find the former to be more challenging to learn.

What product from those companies would you recommend for my use case?
 

dr_clyde

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In that case, it seems both of my initially stated options are not suitable to my needs unless the Fronius can do AC TIG as its not really clear.

Would I then have to purchase a seperate MIG and TIG/Stick welder?

With a budget of around 6000$, what welder(s) would you recommend?

There are many, many different ways to approach this question. It highly depends on what kind of work you intend to go after.

Sanitary tubing and pipefitting takes a very different machine than production aluminum fuel cells which is different than heavy steel fab, etc.

I own a small welding and fab shop. I can give you my experiences, but they may be (probably will be) different than yours. My shop is a job shop, and we do a pretty good mix of just about everything.

I started my business with a Miller Dynasty 200DX and a Lincoln Invertec V300 - PRO with an LN-7 wire feeder.

I bought the Lincoln first to do mostly MIG work, but I did do stick and scratch start TIG with it until I got the Dynasty. I bought the Dynasty about 6 months after I got the Lincoln.

The Dynasty is AC/DC and portable, so I could do light aluminum, portable welding, and delicate tig work. It also is a dynamite stick welder.

The Lincoln was a great wire welder for heavy work. I didn't use it as often, but I was glad I had it when I needed to run some dual shield or big wire.

I would recommend getting something resembling that combination to start. A small-ish (200 amp or so) AC/DC TIG machine and a 300+ amp good quality wire welder.

Brand isn't as critical as local support. Get whatever brand your local welding supply sells and services. These guys will be a CRITICAL vendor, so make sure you keep a good relationship with them.

All in one machines are fine if you have others as backups, or if you have a MAJOR space constraint. But if your one machine shits the bed, you're dead in the water until you get it fixed. When you're a hobby shop, this isn't a huge deal, but when you're earning your living with a welder, you can't afford to not have it working properly. If for no other reason, this is a good reason to have two machines.

Once you start hiring employees, you will want multiple machines anyway. I am now up to 7 welders for 3 guys, with plans to buy more. Diversity and the ability to specialize machines is very useful.

As far as buying cheap vs buying nice, I would strongly advocate buying the best you can afford without putting yourself in a bad spot financially. If this is going to be a money making venture, you want quality equipment that you can count on to do the job.

Cheap tools work fine for a lot of things, but I don't like relying on them for my living. It also ***** having to buy things twice. I'd rather just buy the one I really want than buy the cheap one and eventually have to buy the nice one later when the cheap one dies. If you end up needing to get rid of a machine, good quality brand names hold their value a lot better and you can recoup a lot of your investment if you take care of it.

I can't really recommend brands and models for you, I am not intimately familiar with European welding brands. I do know Fronius is an industry leader in cutting edge welding tech, and their machines are extremely nice. I also know Lincoln is a solid, reliable company. I personally have all Miller welders.

As to whether it is wise to start a welding business without any welding experience, well, :rolleyes: That may or may not work out in your favor. I probably wouldn't hang out your shingle until you can do work worthy of selling. If you can pass a few different bend tests and your welds look aesthetically pleasing, you're probably ready. If you don't know your *** from your elbow in welding, how do you expect to do what the customers want to their specs?

In my experience, at MINIMUM you will need to know how to read prints, interpret weld symbols, know how to select process, filler metals, gas, and base metals. You need a working knowledge of basic metallurgy, as well as some knowledge of the adjacent trades like machining, sheet metal, pipefitting, construction, ironwork and any other industries you might do work for.

Welding shops usually need some support equipment too. At the minimum, I would want an oxy-acetylene torch, grinders, cut-off saw, air compressor, plasma cutter, drill press and a welding table. You're probably going to want a computer with some kind of CAD software at some point too.

There is a lot more to this business than just welding parts.
 
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drummerdimitri

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There are many, many different ways to approach this question. It highly depends on what kind of work you intend to go after.

Sanitary tubing and pipefitting takes a very different machine than production aluminum fuel cells which is different than heavy steel fab, etc.

I own a small welding and fab shop. I can give you my experiences, but they may be (probably will be) different than yours. My shop is a job shop, and we do a pretty good mix of just about everything.

I started my business with a Miller Dynasty 200DX and a Lincoln Invertec V300 - PRO with an LN-7 wire feeder.

I bought the Lincoln first to do mostly MIG work, but I did do stick and scratch start TIG with it until I got the Dynasty. I bought the Dynasty about 6 months after I got the Lincoln.

The Dynasty is AC/DC and portable, so I could do light aluminum, portable welding, and delicate tig work. It also is a dynamite stick welder.

The Lincoln was a great wire welder for heavy work. I didn't use it as often, but I was glad I had it when I needed to run some dual shield or big wire.

I would recommend getting something resembling that combination to start. A small-ish (200 amp or so) AC/DC TIG machine and a 300+ amp good quality wire welder.

Brand isn't as critical as local support. Get whatever brand your local welding supply sells and services. These guys will be a CRITICAL vendor, so make sure you keep a good relationship with them.

All in one machines are fine if you have others as backups, or if you have a MAJOR space constraint. But if your one machine shits the bed, you're dead in the water until you get it fixed. When you're a hobby shop, this isn't a huge deal, but when you're earning your living with a welder, you can't afford to not have it working properly. If for no other reason, this is a good reason to have two machines.

Once you start hiring employees, you will want multiple machines anyway. I am now up to 7 welders for 3 guys, with plans to buy more. Diversity and the ability to specialize machines is very useful.

As far as buying cheap vs buying nice, I would strongly advocate buying the best you can afford without putting yourself in a bad spot financially. If this is going to be a money making venture, you want quality equipment that you can count on to do the job.

Cheap tools work fine for a lot of things, but I don't like relying on them for my living. It also ***** having to buy things twice. I'd rather just buy the one I really want than buy the cheap one and eventually have to buy the nice one later when the cheap one dies. If you end up needing to get rid of a machine, good quality brand names hold their value a lot better and you can recoup a lot of your investment if you take care of it.

I can't really recommend brands and models for you, I am not intimately familiar with European welding brands. I do know Fronius is an industry leader in cutting edge welding tech, and their machines are extremely nice. I also know Lincoln is a solid, reliable company. I personally have all Miller welders.

As to whether it is wise to start a welding business without any welding experience, well, :rolleyes: That may or may not work out in your favor. I probably wouldn't hang out your shingle until you can do work worthy of selling. If you can pass a few different bend tests and your welds look aesthetically pleasing, you're probably ready. If you don't know your *** from your elbow in welding, how do you expect to do what the customers want to their specs?

In my experience, at MINIMUM you will need to know how to read prints, interpret weld symbols, know how to select process, filler metals, gas, and base metals. You need a working knowledge of basic metallurgy, as well as some knowledge of the adjacent trades like machining, sheet metal, pipefitting, construction, ironwork and any other industries you might do work for.

Welding shops usually need some support equipment too. At the minimum, I would want an oxy-acetylene torch, grinders, cut-off saw, air compressor, plasma cutter, drill press and a welding table. You're probably going to want a computer with some kind of CAD software at some point too.

There is a lot more to this business than just welding parts.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post such an informative piece of literature!

I agree with you and it makes a lot of sense to purchase at least two machines for my welding needs and it seems like your recommendation resonates with my needs perfectly.

I will do some further research regarding which brands/models to purchase with this info as reference.

In a previous post I had mentioned that it is not my intention to start a welding/fabrication business ASAP but instead, purchase the essential tools and equipment of which I already own many (Drill press, Vise, tons of hand tools, impact driver, cordless drill, dremel, air compressor etc.) to expand my hobby with hopes of starting this business if I find myself worthy of doing so.

Surely if like you said I am not able to weld for **** and my work is sub par to what my competitors may offer after a reasonable amount of time, I would just keep the machines and use them for personal gains instead of venturing into commercial applications.
 

American Locomotive

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The othee thing is welders are evolving rapidly right now. In 1 or 2 years someone may come out with all-in-one 300+ amp machine that can do AC, DC and everything in between.

Maybe start out with a budget machine now, and then step up to a "real" machine when you are ready to start your business.
 
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drummerdimitri

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The othee thing is welders are evolving rapidly right now. In 1 or 2 years someone may come out with all-in-one 300+ amp machine that can do AC, DC and everything in between.

Maybe start out with a budget machine now, and then step up to a "real" machine when you are ready to start your business.

I am convinced that an all in one machine isn't really ideal for a production environment as there will be downtime in case the welder malfunctions so it would make much more sense to purchase two machines instead (MIG and TIG) with a third stick eventually if welding outside the premises is needed.

Also, that goes against my moto of buy once cry once. I don't believe in buying cheap and then upgrading in the future because I know that's going to be inevitable so that way I can forgo the cost of the cheap machine and get the one I want/need from the get go.
 
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drummerdimitri

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I have a question regarding the fume extraction.

Since I will be welding indoor in my shop, would I need a fume extraction hood or will a welding helmet with papr be enough?

Thinking of going for the Optrel Crystal 2.0 welding helmet with or without PAPR...
 

AngleRicker

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I'd like to start a metal fabrication business and as you all know, that cannot be achieved without a decent welding machine.

That being said, I'm not sure which of these two options to go for:

Lincoln Power Mig 360MP or the Fronius TPS 320i.

They both seems to be able to do stick, TIG and MIG welding.

I've chosen these two as I'd like to only have one machine dedicated to welding in my shop and because they are available locally.

Since I'm new to welding and have no prior experience whatsoever, which of these would you recommend purchasing?

I'll be welding all kinds of metals such as mild steel, stainless steel, aluminium, titanium etc. so I need a reliable machine that will grow along with my skill level as time passes by.
Thanks to give me the best reply to your question.
you can check now this welder machine: HITBOX MIG Welder 200Amp 4 in 1 Multifunction MIG Welding Machine 220V
This welders price is under 6000$
best-cheap-welding-machine-under-500-3.jpg
 
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