Which ratchet is oldest pattern?

[alton1911]

I’m trying to figure out which of these would be the chicken and which is the egg.
Both are similar in length, both are 1/2 inch. Both have the same model number.
But they are very different.
If they happen to be contemporary, Who made them.
I

 

[four.cycle]

^ Looks like you've got a model 1660 and a model 1660+ Challenger.
Not a clue which one is older.
Challenger was PROTO's "price point" line. The brand is no longer around.

 

[alton1911]

Great point. I did not notice the plus symbol as part of the model number. The 1660 wrench is very much like some Penncraft ratchets. I have never noticed any ratchets like the other one. The mechanism is twice as complicated on the 1660+ and actually doubles the number of teeth in use at any given time.
Thanks again for the help.
alton1911

 

[four.cycle]

The 1660 wrench is very much like some Penncraft ratchets.

^ Different animal.
Your Penncraft 3/8" drive (3681) is most likely a New Britain made unit. (Internal snap-ring on drive side)
Some Penncraft ratchets (and socket sets) were outsourced from Thorsen. (see Thorsen 77JC / 77C for comparison)

* this one is "JC Penney" brand (as opposed to "Penncraft") but it shows a Thorsen example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/JCPenney-3...-3010-21-Pc-Short-Deep-USA-Made-/152824296478

 

[d42jeep]

Twertsy can probably verify this but I believe that the one simply marked Challenger is earlier than the Challenger by Proto marked ratchet.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm with Don on the sequence. I found a late 1960's Challenger 'Warrior' (combination 3/8 and 1/4 drive) socket set, NOS, unused, last year, and all the pieces are marked CHALLENGER MFD. U.S.A., including the ratchet (1260), except for two sockets, marked CHALLENGER [PROTO](R) U.S.A. The consensus on the thread, which turned into a mini Challenger research study, with several examples and historical ads, was that it was a set made during the transition from CHALLENGER (as made and sold by Pendleton Tool Industries Inc. at that time) to CHALLENGER PROTO.

EDIT: We tend to associate the Challenger name with socket sets in 60's and 70's glitzy green boxes, but the name was actually first used by the Plomb empire for socket sets as early as 1940! I only realized that recently. I don't think it was marked on the actually tools, just marketed that way.

 

[twertsy]

I'm with Don on the sequence. I found a late 1960's Challenger 'Warrior' (combination 3/8 and 1/4 drive) socket set, NOS, unused, last year, and all the pieces are marked CHALLENGER MFD. U.S.A., including the ratchet (1260), except for two sockets, marked CHALLENGER [PROTO](R) U.S.A. The consensus on the thread, which turned into a mini Challenger research study, with several examples and historical ads, was that it was a set made during the transition from CHALLENGER (as made and sold by Pendleton Tool Industries Inc. at that time) to CHALLENGER PROTO.

EDIT: We tend to associate the Challenger name with socket sets in 60's and 70's glitzy green boxes, but the name was actually first used by the Plomb empire for socket sets as early as 1940! I only realized that recently. I don't think it was marked on the actually tools, just marketed that way.

I agree with everything but the 1940. Where did we come up with that? The earliest I've found them as far as I can recall is August of 1949.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I agree with everything but the 1940. Where did we come up with that? The earliest I've found them as far as I can recall is August of 1949.

They were "introduced" on page 24 of Catalog 18-A, printed 10-40.

 

[twertsy]

Thanks Lugz.............I'll go back and correct some stuff on my site......

 

[Carla]

They were "introduced" on page 24 of Catalog 18-A, printed 10-40.

I have one of the 'Challenger' sets here, the basic '5400X' 1/2" drive socket kit, which has come down through the years in 'as new' condition. The tools are nicely chrome-plated, with a 1939 date code.

cheers

Carla

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have one of the 'Challenger' sets here, the basic '5400X' 1/2" drive socket kit, which has come down through the years in 'as new' condition. The tools are nicely chrome-plated, with a 1939 date code.

Very helpful, Carla!

Plomb catalog 17-B (1939) does not include the 5400X set, and there is no mention of the "Challenger" branding for any socket sets. Plomb catalog 18-A (late 1940) does include the 5400X set, in the "Introducing NEW CHALLENGER SETS" section. Looks to me like it's safe to conclude they were first made in 1939, after the catalog was printed, and introduced in the 1940 catalog.

Are there "Challenger" markings on anything? You are identifying it by the model number, correct?

 

[Carla]

Very helpful, Carla!

Plomb catalog 17-B (1939) does not include the 5400X set, and there is no mention of the "Challenger" branding for any socket sets. Plomb catalog 18-A (late 1940) does include the 5400X set, in the "Introducing NEW CHALLENGER SETS" section. Looks to me like it's safe to conclude they were first made in 1939, after the catalog was printed, and introduced in the 1940 catalog.

Are there "Challenger" markings on anything? You are identifying it by the model number, correct?

Hello, Lugz,

I could only identify that little socket set as 'Challenger' by its listing in the Plomb catalogue. The tools themselves are the regular production, so far as I could tell, with what I refer to as the 'pre-war finish quality' in polishing and chrome-plating.

The sheet metal box may be dimensionally unique to this set, but appears to be otherwise similar to other Plomb set boxes, with the 'round 0' stamping on the top surface.

It may or may not have originally had a special paper tag, or label, to denote the 'Challenger' merchandising, on the inside of the box. All that was present when I got the set were traces of glue where a tag had once been.

(added on edit) It would appear that this set may have been marketed as a basic minimum maintenence kit for Model A Ford owners, given that it included the otherwise seldom-used 21/32" socket, which suited the Ford A rod cap nuts. (I'd not be surprised should almost every reader of this page have been spared the joys of having to adjust the clearances of the rod bearings on an old Ford.)

cheers

Carla

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I could only identify that little socket set as 'Challenger' by its listing in the Plomb catalogue.

Thanks, Carla. While it would certainly be special if the packaging was preserved with your hand-me-dow "Challenger" set, your methodology is solid due to the facts at hand. Plomb didn't list a set matching the 5400X in the 1939 catalog, your pieces matching the 5400X contents have 1939 date codes, and then the "Challenger" sets, including the 5400X, are formally introduced in the 1940 catalog. I think your set, complemented by the catalogs, helps establish first use in late 1939.

 

[drivesitfar]

CARLA: yep i was spared from having to adjust a MODEL T FORD'S rods, but i bet a few of even the younger members that might own one know what you are talking about.

I know it might not be easy for you to take a few pictures of your little mint Challenger set, but I for one would like to see it if you are able to.

thanks again for your sharing your knowledge.

ALL: so i'm hearing that the Challenger line started in 1939 and also heard it ended, but didn't hear that there was a firm date on when that was. anybody know an end date to the Challenger line or did it just become Proto cause i've got some almost new tools that have Challenger's name on them?

thanks

 

[Smokeshow69]

Hello, Lugz,

I could only identify that little socket set as 'Challenger' by its listing in the Plomb catalogue. The tools themselves are the regular production, so far as I could tell, with what I refer to as the 'pre-war finish quality' in polishing and chrome-plating.

The sheet metal box may be dimensionally unique to this set, but appears to be otherwise similar to other Plomb set boxes, with the 'round 0' stamping on the top surface.

It may or may not have originally had a special paper tag, or label, to denote the 'Challenger' merchandising, on the inside of the box. All that was present when I got the set were traces of glue where a tag had once been.

(added on edit) It would appear that this set may have been marketed as a basic minimum maintenence kit for Model A Ford owners, given that it included the otherwise seldom-used 21/32" socket, which suited the Ford A rod cap nuts. (I'd not be surprised should almost every reader of this page have been spared the joys of having to adjust the clearances of the rod bearings on an old Ford.)

cheers

Carla

Carla, please post some pictures of said challenger set ! It sounds like a real beauty !


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