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Which regulator brand and type?

IT_Architect

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I've read the regulator threads here, but didn't find what I wanted to know.

I have a Devilbiss 6.5 HP Two-Stage 175 PSI compressor. This is the same as the SnapOn, Ingersol Rand, Delta (Sam's club I believe), and Porter Cable. It has a 1/2" discharge. I have a 1/4" HF regulator that regulates perfectly. The only problem is it passes a minuscule amount of air. The Speedaire 4ZM22 and the ARO/Ingersoll Rand R37341-600-VS pass plenty of air, but they don't look to be the diaphragm type. On the diaphragm side there is the Parker R119-04CG, but that's pretty pricey. Knowing how both work I would guess that the diaphragms hold a more precise pressure, but air tools don't care that much. What are your thoughts?
 
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IT_Architect

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I've used PneumaticsPlus regulators before, and they were not that expensive. Readily available on amazon
SAR4000T is 1/2 NPT, SAR2000T is 1/4 NPT
website:
http://www.pneumaticplus.com/
Yeow! They hit it out of the park with users. My rule of thumb is, if 4 star and 5 star add up to 75% or more, you almost can't miss. This comes in at 94%, and the other stuff I ran across from theirs in a short search isn't far behind. It has the CFM I'm looking for too. Thanks TONS!!! :thumbup:

PS: Question, why do you like T Handle?

PS: They must be crazy. They publish flow rates in CFM with charts and pressures and a drawing for physical size, and it is the only one I've found so far that is short enough to simply screw on with no plumbing changes. I suppose next you're going to tell me they have real engineers that understand what they are making and selling. Haven't they heard about the cat and mouse game? Slick salesmen who know zero try to scam you, while you try to not get scammed? They must be living in some sort of time warp. My dad tells me about such times and how it used to be.
 
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bob15

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I like Wilkerson or Parker regulators .

The R119 you listed is on e-bay for $75, new without box. See auction # 262128608524

That is worth the money.
 
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IT_Architect

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I like Wilkerson or Parker regulators. The R119 you listed...
I just noticed I would need to buy the Parker R119-06CG (3/4) and bush it down to get the flow I want. Not a big deal.

They have a Wilkerson Dial-Air Regulator Series B R21-04-000 out there too. They look very different. Are they any good?

I think I won't get a filter because I'm connected to the top of the 80 gallon tank, and I never get any water out of the hose.
 
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IT_Architect

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What air flow do you think you need?
Good question, LOL! What I know is my air gun is very lazy, and my fittings leak if any tool is laying down and the hose is not perfectly aligned. Of course I'm using nothing but the best, choke, choke, Menards Industrial fittings, 1/4" HF regulator, and a 3/8" x 50' GoodYear hose. Just from readng 1/2" air guns can take between 24 and 37 CFM. We both know we can't use figures for determining compressor size such as 4.4 CFM, which assumes the air gun isn't working most of the time. My guess is my biggest problem is my current regulator. I studied the regulator pressure curves where I could find information, and higher the flow it has, the better it does at maintaining pressure. I agree with you that in my quest of getting these problems behind me, I don't need to go that far with the regulator. Because there are 1/2" regulators like the SAR4000M-N04BG, Arrow Pneumatics Midflow, and Speedaire-4ZM21 that can do well over 200 CFM, doesn't mean I need that much. The Parker 150 CFM regulator costs more. Is there a reason to favor the large diaphragm, T-handle regulators? I could probably call 150 plenty good, and should probably closing on 1/2" hose and matching fttings. Since I have to replace a regulator and fittings anyway, my tendency is to not want to have any issues when I done, real or imagined, which tends to make me overreact a little.

My Wilkerson is similar to the R119 Parker regulator.
I didn't find the R120 Series until you mentioned they had some like the Parkers. However, I don't see them on eBay or Amazon or the other likely suspects so it appears I need to go through a local distributor, who doesn't have a web site with parts and prices so I'll probably just skip the Wilkerson unless they cost significantly less than the equivalent R119s. It looks like the R119s you can rebuild for $20 if you need to, and you can get parts off eBay and Amazon.
 
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IT_Architect

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Put a filter on.
You think so? I'm coming right off the top of an 80 gallon tank with the air hose, and I've never encountered any water. Adding a filter would usually cut me to 100 CFM and give a pretty good pressure drop before even hitting the hose.
 

bigredmf

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Yes you need a filter prior to your regulator.

Run the correct filter and you won't have the pressure drop.


I run 3 separate filters 40, 20 micron and then a coalescing element.

What tools are you actually running?

At a minimum run one

Red


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IT_Architect

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What tools are you actually running?
1/2" Impact, smaller impacts, occasional DA sander, needle scaler, solvent wand, die grinder, air chisel, blaster, etc.

PS: A real shocker to me was the max CFM for a 1/2" 50' air hose reel is only 35.
 
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sberry

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What do you need 100 cfm for or even 35? A 1/2 air gun is matched for a 50 ft 3/8 reel for the most part.
I babble a lot on this forum but one of my points is to be realistic when doing load demand calcs. The newer users are often the worst, they read a comment or 2 about pressure drop from another diy and the race is on.
3/8 hose is the correct size line for these tools, quit reading all these fuggin charts. Its obvious they are confusing at best.
 
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bigredmf

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The real confusion comes from the difference between CFM and SCFM.

Air compressors and air tools are typically rated in CFM.

Air preperation Filters Regulators and Lubricators in SCFM (standard cubic feet per minute)

These units are not interchangeable as scfm is calculated based on temp, pressure and altitude etc. Its rather complex. I have been in the pneumatic industry for 25+ years and is still confuses me.

I developed a spread sheet years ago for sizing air motors which are listed as requiring CFM but you need to convert to SCFM and then Cv for sizing a air valve. I will try to attach it and welcome any feedback as it may not be 100% accurate but has worked for me for years.

The key is the actual pressure drop across the device you are powering. If there is no pressure drop over your air motor no work is being done.

At a 90 psi pressure drop (delta P) 35 cfm is roughly 245 scfm requirement.

At a 50 psi pressure drop (delta P) 35 cfm is roughly 150 scfm requirement

At a 5 psi pressure drop (delta P) 35 cfm is roughly 46 scfm requirement

This should illustrate why these units can be misleading,

Being a R119 regulator can flow 250 scfm with a inlet of 100 psi and outlet pressure of 65 psi. You might say that is to much pressure drop but say your compressor tank is full of 175 psi air. Then you can accept the 35 psi drop.

Red
 
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bigredmf

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Feel free to plug into a spreadsheet

CONVERTING ACTUAL CFM (ACFM) TO STANDARD CUBIC FEET PER MINUTE (SCFM):


SCFM = ACFM x ((Pg + Patm)/Patm)*((Tref +460)/(Tact + 460))


Pg = Gauge Pressure
Ta = Ambient Temp (F) + 460
Patm = Atm (14.7)
Tref = Temperature reference 70
Tact = Actual air temperature
 

bigredmf

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I just noticed I would need to buy the Parker R119-06CG (3/4) and bush it down to get the flow I want. Not a big deal.

They have a Wilkerson Dial-Air Regulator Series B R21-04-000 out there too. They look very different. Are they any good?

I think I won't get a filter because I'm connected to the top of the 80 gallon tank, and I never get any water out of the hose.

The Wilkerson/Parker dial regulators are a extremely accurate regulator. They describe them as a semi precision regulator.

All of the devices you will be running need to have a filtered air supply. A filter though it may remove some water is intended to remove particulates. The air your compressor ingests is dirty and needs to be filtered. It would be as running your car without a oil or air filter.

Then if you plan to paint you should be filtering more by adding a coalescing filter.

Red
 

sberry

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None of the listed tools require a 1/2 hose at these distances. A 1/2 air gun will have a pinch more poop with a 25 ft than a 50, about the same as using a 50 ft 1/2 over a 3/8 but once it reaches a threshold to do the work is irrelevant.
The idea is not to dump as much air as you can but to get work done efficiently with air which is about 5x as expensive to operate as an electric tool.
 

sberry

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We tested some loss, a quite a bit over 50 ft and swivel in this cheap reel but its what we use. Having 2 stage this is compensated a bit thru input pressure.
 

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IT_Architect

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Being a R119 regulator can flow 250 scfm with a inlet of 100 psi and outlet pressure of 65 psi. You might say that is to much pressure drop but say your compressor tank is full of 175 psi air. Then you can accept the 35 psi drop.Red
...plus whatever other drops there are that in turn diminish the tank reserve.

- For regulators, I've pretty well milked you guys and now I just have to pick one and it appears there are plenty of suitable ones to pick from.
- I called around the shops and about hoses. Half of them use 3/8 hose and the rest 1/2, LOL! I'll stick with my 3/8 for now.
- As far as connectors go, I'll probably go with the Milton V-style. The V-style seems to have waken up a lot of air guns on this forum. Hopefully they are no worse to disconnect than my Menard's M-styles when I have 175 PSI on the hose.
- I'll think about the filter. For the compressor it's a car paper air filter, an 80 gallon after cooler/water stripper on a compressor that doesn't run much.

All that really matters is I go from a system that can't keep up with my air gun, to one that can, and doesn't leak like a sieve every time the hose isn't quite lined up.

My tools and abilities came from a former life that I practice occasionally in my garage. At that time I was certified master in cars, hd trucks, and RVs, and after that went into aircraft, and then inspector. However, I haven't forgotten how well these tools worked then, and how they are not working that way now. The only reason I have an air compressor that big is because when I started looking it popped up on eBay for $250, and looked like new, so there wasn't much to think about. So I have a compressor that can give my tools the capability they had in a former life instead of one where I would have to wait for it to recover in order to be able to work again or put up with a rattle box, and a regulator and fittings that ****.
 

sberry

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This is basic use, if it works for me it will work for you. I used a 1/2 hose first time in a couple years as close as I can remember the other day on a class 8 truck with a 3/4 hi power gun for 2 stuck bolts.
You are way over qualified to size air lines and regulators,,,, hahahah
 

sberry

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How bout a pic of the regulator you have? I use a couple regs with the hose connection screwed to 1/4 ports. This does not hurt a thing going to 3/8 hoses.
There is a lot of worry about connectors which only is a small factor normally and then add extra sets along the way. The very best way is as in this pic, only QD is at the used endo f the hose.
 

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IT_Architect

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You are way over qualified to size air lines and regulators
But I never had to buy the stuff before, and this kind of work hasn't been a duck in my pond for some years now.

How bout a pic of the regulator you have?
It didn't like the pictures from my Note 3 because they had a ton of megapixels, so I resized them. Hopefully they look good enough for you. The compressor is a Devilbiss LKC6580V2-1 which was sold a lot of different ways: Delta=DLKC6580V2-1, Ingersol-Rand(IRLKC6580V2-1), Porter-Cable=CPLKC6580V2-1, Snap-On=, etc., etc., etc. The only difference in any of them is the paint color of the tank and the decals. They are rated at 16.9 cfm at 40 psi, 16 cfm at 90 psi. I have no way to measure if it lives up to those numbers but I did do this:
1. Tank size = 80 gallons
2. Tank Cubic Feet = Gallons / 7.48 = 10.695187165775401
3. Time in seconds it takes to bring the tank from 0 to 175 PSIG = 480 (average of 3 tests)
4. Pressure added in PSI = 175
5. Atmospheres added = 175 / 14.7 = 11.904761904761905
6. Cubic Feet added = 11.904761904761905 * 10.695187165775401 = 127.323656735421443
7. CFS = 127.323656735421443 / 480 = 0.265257618198795
8. ACFM = 0.265257618198795 * 60 = 15.9154570919277
9. SCFM = 16.74 after ACFM was compensated for a PSIA of 14.7, 0.5069 Saturation pressure, .90 humidity, 530 R temperature.
*I'm guessing from this that the performance can't be too far off the published numbers and the compressor is still in good shape.
Compressor.JPG


This is the regulator up close:
Regulator.JPG
 
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sberry

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Have you ran tools off of it yet? This reg is a short little ****** with few turns, did it come with the unit? As I mentioned earlier if they are cheap fittings and leak take that sucker out and screw the hose to it.
This is a pretty respectable unit. It will keep up with body work at least as hard as I would work. Its 2 stage so it is made to run impacts. With a 1/2 gun on 50 ft the comp will turn on about the pressure needed to feed a regulator to give the gun good performance.
A slick operator could DA sand a car about steady with this.
 
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IT_Architect

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Have you ran tools off of it yet?
Oh sure, for a few years now, and it's been a PITA. The last straw was about a week ago. Every year before winter I go under my vehicle and look for any chipped paint or spots where rust might form and touch it up. Every couple I get it redone with Corrosion Free 3000. Things weren't working right, air hoses were hissing, and I got pissed...again.

...did it come with the unit?
No, I just went to Harbor Freight, and that looks like a regulator alright. LOL! I started out with tools like that too and it wasn't long before the SnapOn man was sending me Christmas cards.

As I mentioned earlier if they are cheap fittings and leak take that sucker out and screw the hose to it...I wouldn't buy a single thing but maybe a filter till I figured out how this worked.
If you promise not to tell, I can tell you it wakes up my air gun. However, I don't dare try that with my other tools. Perhaps you are right and I should get a T and check along the path with a pressure gauge so I can at least quantify before and after.
 

sberry

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I wouldn't let the lack of a filter stop me from doing something but would add one in the deal along the way when I got the chance. There is no real need for elaborate testing here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, hook up,,,,,,,,,,,,,, see if it works. If it doesnt change a piece. There is no point n elaborate engineering.
Millions of mechanics have simply hooked these up and used them.
 
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IT_Architect

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I bled all of the air out of the tank by opening the drain and attaching my double-male. A while later I fired it up and timed it with a stop watch. It took 7:03/423 seconds to bring it from 0 to 175. That works out to an ACFM of 18.1. However, tonight is significantly colder than standard day, as you know, because we don't live that far apart. It is only 50 degrees, but 97% RH, and the psia is only 14.24. All that works out to 17.8 SCFM. Part of the increase might be attributable to another reason, which I will share later.

I plugged my air gun, CP734, made in USA, directly into the fitting and pressed the trigger. The regulator output psi dropped 30 psi. The CP734 air requirements are modest by today's standards. This behavior makes sense because it would always start out fast for a split second and then dog down, so the air hose was providing a brief high pressure reservoir. When I pulled the air gun, the quick disconnect wouldn't shut off so I turned it off at the ball valve. I went back into the house and read the reviews for the regulator. A lot of people liked it, and some didn't, and the ones who didn't, tended to be the ones who knew what they were doing, and had real air tools. The thought suddenly occurred to me that it is entirely possible that a guy with an 80 gallon compressor, professional shop tools, and knows how they are supposed to perform, might not be completely satisfied with a Harbor Freight $4.97 regulator with no published CFM rating, and which may have been designed for bicycle tires and aquariums. (tic)

> Part of the increase might be attributable to another reason, which I will share later...This is a pretty respectable unit. It will keep up with body work at least as hard as I would work<
I bought the compressor from guy who works as a hi-lo driver by night, and a gifted and highly productive chop shop operator by day. He said he bought it at Sam's club and had used the compressor for a few years in his shop. It ran his hoist, and being a chop shop, did a lot of body work and HVLP painting. He fired it up and said, hear that knock? That's a rod knock. I said, I don't hear a rod knock. Then he said, hear that popping? Without taking it apart, I'm pretty sure that's a bad head gasket. All I witnessed was it pumped up steadily to the shutoff pressure, so I thought I don't have to do anything to this thing because I use it only occasionally, and even as-is, it was more capable than anything I planned to buy new. The tank was worth more than $250. He was selling it because he needed the money to pick up the motor he just had rewound for a Quincy 7.5 HP he had there that he had gotten a deal on. He decided fixing that instead would give him more capacity for painting and sanding. After it was in my garage, I noticed the belt was very loose, I cleaned the air filter, which was caked full of paint residue, and changed the oil using the recommended compressor oil. It sounded different after that, and I'm guessing that what he determined to be an air leak was the noise generated by the bolts being loose on the belt guard cage. This is when I took the initial capacity measurements. I didn't have a lot of respect for the air filter, but figured they must know what they are doing. It's a well-known company and they sell a lot of these.

Fast forward a couple years. It was a very cold morning. I had just started the furnace and compressor. About the time it got to 100 psi I heard a pop followed by hissing and it stopped building pressure. I traced the hissing down to the inter-stage pressure relief valve. That usually indicates a blown head gasket or bad reed valves, which are expensive. I dreaded paying $450 for a compressor head of that size. When I pulled the head off, I discovered was it was loaded with carbon that fit the reeds so perfectly, it looked like black inserts that belonged there, except where it had broken off and jammed under a couple reed valves. The ports under the reed valves were down to about 1/2 their normal size, but the valves and seats looked good. After cleaning out the rest and determining there were no rod, piston, or any other issues, I carefully cleaned all of the paint buildup from the passages, and carbon around the reeds, seats, and exhaust, which was painstaking work. Nicking or kinking anything would have instantly added ~$275 for reconditioned reed valve plates, in addition to the $112 already required for a gasket set, which could change the whole equation. The final bath was done in the old, and now illegal, carburetor cleaner I had. However, I could not soak it for a long time like you can the old carburetors because it also eats aluminum. Tonight might be the first capacity test after cleaning it up. Carbon both helps and hinders, and I haven't spent the time to calculate if the cleanup was any part of the increase or not.
EDIT: Tonight must not have been the first capacity test after cleaning out the top end. I found an earlier measurement where it took 590 seconds, where it worked out to 13.76 SCFM. I don't need to calculate to realize that would be well outside any density altitude variations, meaning the top end work DID yield a capacity increase.

The heat of compression had been burning the over spray and paint sanding dust and depositing them as carbon on BOTH the high and low pressure sides. I never gave it a thought that compressor heads get hot enough to do that since they don't have compression like a Diesel. (As a side note, I remember the Army guys had V8 Cummins Diesel sand blasters where one bank provided power while the other had a special head to compress air.) I determined that compressors used in body-shop-type environments need paper filters for more reasons than vehicle engines. Before replacing the oil, I studied the recommended oil, and the seal composition, and determined that their recommendations were inferior to simply using Mobile 1 0W20, which would provide superior lubrication under both cold and hot conditions, and it is available more places and costs less. Since it sounds like you use your compressor for body work in what looks to be my dream of a man cave, I thought you might find this additional information useful. That's a pretty cool story on your home page about the history of your family farms.
 
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IT_Architect

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Everything is in, on, and done. I tested before and after:
- With the old regulator when I depressed the trigger on the air wrench it lost 30-35 PSI at the regulator.
- With the new regulator when I depressed the trigger it loses 3-5 lbs, and the air wrench is at least 10 times as powerful and that was before adding the Milton V-Style connectors

Here is a pics of the 1/4" HF Regulator next to the Speedaire 1/2" regulator.
reg_compare.jpg


This is after everything is mounted up:
reg_mounted.JPG


I wondered what the Milton V-Styles would be like. I'm very glad I got them. They disconnect FAR easier than my type M connectors under pressure and lose a lot less air when they do. I tested and it held pressure all night. I may have to get therapy. I'm not used to not hearing hisss.

Thanks all!
 
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