Which welding rod?

[dr_clyde]

First off, it was an ASME test. 21 years ago, I sure don't remember all the details. So, all your AWS drivel doesn't apply.

It was done to satisfy a customer's requirements. They paid for the test. We ran .045 wire, 80/20 gas. Voltage at the upper limit of the test parameters. Eight of us took the test, ran 1 set of practice plates, then the test. 7 passed the first time, one broke and got it the second time.

There are a lot of guys on the internet who really don't know **** from shinola about the finer points of welding. You have found a couple of them.

Miller manufactures and sells welders, that doesn't make them experts on welding. They provide decent basic information. Lincoln does a far better job with education and training.

Most of the job was 1/2 and 5/8. As I recall, all the 3/4 was fillet welds to 1/2. We ran it all short arc for about 3 weeks, until the customer fired the other shop that was working on the job. They then agreed to let us spray arc the rest of the job, as we were already certified.

I'm not saying it's a good idea to short arc heavy plate. It's slow and a general pain in the ***, but it can be done properly. Skill is the winning hand.

So Moonpie, tell us about your experience. Ever welded for a living? Ever certified? If so, what?

Despite sometimes coming off as a know it all and snarky, generally speaking, he's right. I have never seen a prequalified code for short circuit mig, ASME, AWS or otherwise. GMAW-S is considered unreliable by welding code standards and requires each procedure to be qualified. More than likely, the procedure was qualified for that particular job under an ASME code, probably Section IX as the boiler and pressure vessel code is the most universally applicable if you're using an ASME code.


This is a good article about it by the ASME board, albeit a few years old.

https://www.nationalboard.org/Index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=179


Plate certification tests with GMAW-S are certainly possible, but they are exceedingly rare, as it isn't considered good practice.

AWS codes aren't "drivel", FWIW, they're the standard welding code for most weldments in the US. As far as I'm aware, ASME is usually the go to for boiler and pressure vessel, API for oil pipelines, and AWS for just about everything else.

I've certified on several different codes and processes, both for my employers and as my own company for my customers, and it is a very book and paper intensive process, there's a lot more going on for code work than just passing a bend test.

 

[MoonRise]

Despite sometimes coming off as a know it all and snarky, generally speaking, he's right.

I know some.

I don't know a lot more. And I know that.

Don't mean to come across as snarky. Unless I actually mean to be snarky. Or would that be ?

The "hats off to you" that I said (typed?) was sincere, not snark. Hence the beer mugs and not some other snarkier smilie.

Posted the Miller welding calculator as it's sometimes handy to see some rough parameters.

Lincoln is good stuff. They don't have a weld parameter calculator on their website though, you have to go into their consumable guides/catalogs (or the door chart ) to get some parameter recommendations.

Or one would follow the approved WPS for the situation.

AWS codes cover a LOT of welding aspects.

ASME is usually the go-to for Boiler and Pressure Vessel Codes, but they also have codes on piping.

API is the go-to for 'petroleum' piping things.

When I have to weld 1/2" plate, I'm usually running stick. 7018 Excalibur or some 5P+ usually.

The 'thin' stuff I'll run with GMAW-S solid wire and C25.

Stainless, then it's 308/308L and tri-mix for the gas.

Lincoln parameters for 0.045 solid wire top out at ~200 amps in short-circuit mode. And their GMAW guide recommends that wire size in short-circuit transfer mode only be used up to 1/4" thick plate, maybe 3/8" thick if running vert up fillet welds (but turn down the WFS/amps a bit and run a small weave there).

And now back to the 'regular' stuff ... (no snark )

 

[dr_clyde]

I’m not picking on you Moonrise. I’m more welding nerd than not and I usually appreciate your posts.

It’s difficult to convey tone over the internet.

I also have the problem that knowledge and enthusiasm for a subject can commonly be misconstrued as being a know it all or being snarky.

I know that most of the time, contributions on a forum are intended to help, not cause ruckus.

I also know that skilled veterans of a trade usually don’t like being told they’re wrong (whether they are or not doesn’t usually matter). And people can get very defensive when their skill and knowledge is questioned.

Tinner strikes me as the kind of guy who knows his stuff, and has many years of experience in his trade. I don’t doubt him when he says he passed the test. I also know that the test he passed is rare, nontypical and difficult and that is worth pointing out.

Welding on the internet seems to bring out an interesting side in folks. Almost no one can weld correctly on the internet.

 

[Tinner]

This discussion is a perfect example of why I generally don't comment in the welding threads on this board. Moonie made this statement which is wrong.

Wire-feed weld on 1/2" or 5/8" plate? Sure, but you are NOT going to do that (successfully anyway ) with short-circuit transfer mode welding.

I cited my factual experience. Moonie came back with AWS code, ( hence the term drivel ) which did not apply.

So, I offered a more detailed explanation, stating specifically that I didn't think it was a good idea. I'm already weary of the repetition...

Here's a bombshell for the code experts. The shop I've worked in for the last dozen years has about 30 fabricators. 2 AWS CWIs, a 1 and a 2. Every welder must have a minimum of 4 certs.

Two of those are GMAW- S mild steel and stainless. Bent root and face, 3/8 plate, single bevel, vertical up and horizontal. Can back gouge the root and run a single pass or a pair of stringers over it. 75/25 on the steel and get this, 85/15 on the stainless.

According to the CWI 2 these procedures are pre qualified under AWS D1.1.
He has about 30 years experience and has put his stamp on every piece of paperwork involved. I'm not an expert on code. Maybe the inspector is full of ****, but we've had these procedures in place for over 10 years. All our customers, including a few large multi-national corporations have copies of the procedures and certification log. Some even send their own inspectors to look at work in progress. No one has raised a stink, so I think everything is kosher.

 

[dr_clyde]

Hey man,

Full disclosure, I am not a CWI.

I have a working knowledge of welding codes, and have taken several tests to qualify to weld to a variety of codes, but I am far from an expert.

I comment and advise based upon my real world experience, and occasionally something pops up that’s out of the ordinary and it merits discussion.

In my experience, code qualification and adherence is very tailored to individual companies and applications. The codes are there as a universally accepted guide for standard practices. But in some applications, there are unique or individual criteria that the welds must meet for the work to pass. It is up to the inspector how to interpret the code, test and qualify the work.

As long as the customer is happy and the work is done to a predetermined and agreed upon standard, all is well.

I don’t think anyone is calling you a liar, or in anyway untruthful. All that I’ve noticed is that it’s an unusual circumstance that warranted further discussion.

 

[Tinner]

Hey Jake, we're cool. I'm not a CWI either, I rely on them for information.

I agree with everything you said. Another guy who makes ridiculous statements, not so much.

I'm 63, been fabricating since I was 19. I don't care if someone calls me a liar. I've been called far worse. Some days my tolerance for ******** is extremely low.

The thing about weld procedures and certs in job shops is sometimes they exist only to give the customer a warm fuzzy feeling. The shops and tradesmen who last the longest are those who can differentiate between applications that are critical and not.

 

[kald]

Wire is really good as long as it's fused. 6011 isn't bad as long as it's mild steel. But,,,, 7018 actually cleans grime better than 6011,,, 11 is simply more agressive and easier to arc but the 18 has so much more flux it cleans way better.

Not in my experience. Dirty steel with 7018 is a no no.

 

[sberry]

18 has a lot of flux, it carry away so much better, cleans the pool, , doesn't mix so agressively, doesn't freeze so fast, flows in more orderly fashion. 10 or 11 is easier to strike an arc thru, that's different than it being good.

 

[sberry]

I was testing an old machine I got at a sale. Old rod, old burned plate with hard scale, been thru a fire.

 

[Bdflies]

This discussion is a perfect example of why I generally don't comment in the welding threads on this board. Moonie made this statement which is wrong.



I cited my factual experience. Moonie came back with AWS code, ( hence the term drivel ) which did not apply.

So, I offered a more detailed explanation, stating specifically that I didn't think it was a good idea. I'm already weary of the repetition...

Here's a bombshell for the code experts. The shop I've worked in for the last dozen years has about 30 fabricators. 2 AWS CWIs, a 1 and a 2. Every welder must have a minimum of 4 certs.

Two of those are GMAW- S mild steel and stainless. Bent root and face, 3/8 plate, single bevel, vertical up and horizontal. Can back gouge the root and run a single pass or a pair of stringers over it. 75/25 on the steel and get this, 85/15 on the stainless.

According to the CWI 2 these procedures are pre qualified under AWS D1.1.
He has about 30 years experience and has put his stamp on every piece of paperwork involved. I'm not an expert on code. Maybe the inspector is full of ****, but we've had these procedures in place for over 10 years. All our customers, including a few large multi-national corporations have copies of the procedures and certification log. Some even send their own inspectors to look at work in progress. No one has raised a stink, so I think everything is kosher.

"85/15 on the stainless"? Are you saying that you run 85% Argon/15% Carbon Dioxide with "stainless"? That’s an awful lot of CO2! If my assumption about your blend is wrong, what gases then?

 

[kald]

I was testing an old machine I got at a sale. Old rod, old burned plate with hard scale, been thru a fire.

I'm not saying you can't weld dirty rusty metal with a xx18(nobody hates prep more than me ). I'm saying it is not better than a 6011 with dirty material. Imo and experience you are much more prone porosity or some entrapment
when using a 7018 on dirty unpreped steel.
We did a large structural racking job about ten years ago with customer supplied 6013. Not a hint of prep either. After 10 years of heavy dynamic loading/cycling the equipment shows no signs of any issue.
It will be replaced due ovselesance before failure.

 

[dr_clyde]

Theory and reality often differ, and while reality proves that sometimes things can work in unideal or poor circumstances it doesn’t mean that the theory is wrong.

The real world isn’t perfect, and conditions are never ideal in every way. But having the knowledge of the “correct” way allows you to know what you can get away with and why.

Just because you CAN stick weld though paint and rust doesn’t mean that you SHOULD. Yep, sometimes it’s the real world, and the weld on paint is good enough. But having the knowledge of why it’s bad and when it’s ok and when it’s not is the difference.

 

[Tinner]

"85/15 on the stainless"? Are you saying that you run 85% Argon/15% Carbon Dioxide with "stainless"? That’s an awful lot of CO2! If my assumption about your blend is wrong, what gases then?

No, you are correct. How that procedure came to be is a long story involving 3 idiots who no longer work there. The company doesn't want to change the gas because every one would have to re-certify. It runs like **** and no one uses the procedure for anything but that silly test.

We TIG most of our stainless anyway. We have some big ss jobs, and use pulse spray for those. We can always grab a bottle of tri-mix if needed.

 

[welder4956]

This discussion is a perfect example of why I generally don't comment in the welding threads on this board.

Ditto, but sometimes I do it anyway. Life is too short already.

 

[sberry]

prone porosity or some entrapment

I think the weld is cleaner. The 10 or 11 has limited flux, only so much it can absorb or carry away. The 18 is so much more controlled it has time to boil and flow the dirty out of it.
I also was involved in a kiln repair where the material was damaged, it was the first thought to be using 10 on it especially for a root type thing but it just boils up and all the **** mixes with the weld. We started using 18 and got a lot better especially on vertical, a lot of the crud just go along with the flux. Like creating a little foundry within the pool the dirt flows right out with it.
Same for paint and other oils etc, gets washed and flux trapped vs mixing aggressively with the weld metal. Same difference between wire and sticks, no where for the contaminates to go with gas and solid wire. Wire actually burns a lot of paint off, same for tar but I always think lots of that carbon has to mix although havnt seen outright catastrophes from it.

 

[sberry]

Theory and reality often differ, and while reality proves that sometimes things can work in unideal or poor circumstances it doesn’t mean that the theory is wrong.

The real world isn’t perfect, and conditions are never ideal in every way. But having the knowledge of the “correct” way allows you to know what you can get away with and why.

Just because you CAN stick weld though paint and rust doesn’t mean that you SHOULD. Yep, sometimes it’s the real world, and the weld on paint is good enough. But having the knowledge of why it’s bad and when it’s ok and when it’s not is the difference.

This is good, I absolutely agree its a good thing to know.

 

[sberry]

I codon't pass a cwi test. I barely knew or maybe even didn't know there was a code for 15 years. They were just some numbers on a cert paper when I had to have it. I can't remember anything but a book, the room and the instructor from the class except,,, when it's thick heat it, when it's a little harder use lohy which might underbelly crack from water, some rods are more stretchy than others and handle shock better, even some flavors. They ad **** to the coatings.
Some dig, some smooth. Some mix more than others. That's it. There are grains, strains, ites, can't remember the basics of real metalurgy.
Very rarely needed to know anything about it.

 

[joe49]

Ditto on the 7018 and running it the high range of amps to allow **** to exit the puddle. Keeping the puddle hot and fluid longer is what works, and is easiest on vertical up.
WHY.
Welding in mining, everything is wet, been painted, and is rusting. You get rod you try to keep dry, (that often you stick to allow it to get hot and drive out the moisture), hood with a fixed 10 usually no clear as it will fog even worse than the 10 does anyway, a chipping hammer (cross to point as that works better at chipping the dross when cutting), a wire brush, and a ******* cut file. The fun is crawling around in miserable conditions wet and cold and often have to clip rods that you're laying on something to keep from getting the tickles holding them. I do like hearing from the bench welders telling us how it has to be done. The ones who have grown up with 4 1/2 grinders and never used a 9'', usually know the most.

 

[sberry]

Ya, crawling around wet always adds to your welding pleasure. The tool list is about right, been a lot of places never seen a grinder.