who buys SAE tools these days?

[MotoDave]

... and I'm not sure how many meters are in a kilometer. 1,000? 100?

Um, kilo = 1000

I grew up in Germany using the metric system, its always seemed a whole lot more logical to me.
1 millimeter = 0.001 meter, 1 centimeter = 0.01 meter, 1 decimeter = 0.1 meter, 1 kilometer = 1000 meters

Same goes with all sorts of engineering calculations, there are logical units, as opposed to some of the imperial standards such as the use of Slugs for mass, etc.

As an engineer in the aerospace industry, we do all of our work in inches still. BUT everything we do is in decimals anyways, you'd never find fractions on any of our drawings (i.e. 5/8" = .625"). Inch or millimeter, it doesn't matter one bit to me.

 

[Indy_500]

Um, kilo = 1000

I grew up in Germany using the metric system, its always seemed a whole lot more logical to me.
1 millimeter = 0.001 meter, 1 centimeter = 0.01 meter, 1 decimeter = 0.1 meter, 1 kilometer = 1000 meters

Same goes with all sorts of engineering calculations, there are logical units, as opposed to some of the imperial standards such as the use of Slugs for mass, etc.

As an engineer in the aerospace industry, we do all of our work in inches still. BUT everything we do is in decimals anyways, you'd never find fractions on any of our drawings (i.e. 5/8" = .625"). Inch or millimeter, it doesn't matter one bit to me.

But SAE seems a lot more logical to a lot of us that lived in the U.S. all our lives, it's just a matter of what you are used to.

 

[Stick Figure]

GTM?

I kind of miss doing Procharger or Greddy/AAM TT installs on the Zs, but certainly don't miss Vortech or TN/JWT TTs.

I definitely never want to do headers on one in the car again...dropping the front subframe with the engine/trans and doing a whole TT kit on the ground is so much easier in comparison.

SHHHHHH i don't think i'm allowed to say that in public .... then i might get credit for some of my work! Headers in the car aren't that bad, but of course i've got so much wrench time on those chassis now its ridiculous. Doing the design for the TT kits, i had everything in and out so many times what is hard for a lot of people is now like second nature for me.

Are you still working for a shop?

 

[olds394]

Metric doesn't seem so bad anymore.

 

[ihredo4]

I use SAE on most everything I work on. But then again pre '60 tractors would not have any of the metric jun--stuff on it.

 

[Lump]

Um, kilo = 1000

I grew up in Germany using the metric system, its always seemed a whole lot more logical to me.
1 millimeter = 0.001 meter, 1 centimeter = 0.01 meter, 1 decimeter = 0.1 meter, 1 kilometer = 1000 meters

Same goes with all sorts of engineering calculations, there are logical units, as opposed to some of the imperial standards such as the use of Slugs for mass, etc.

As an engineer in the aerospace industry, we do all of our work in inches still. BUT everything we do is in decimals anyways, you'd never find fractions on any of our drawings (i.e. 5/8" = .625"). Inch or millimeter, it doesn't matter one bit to me.

Hmmmm. Interesting that you mention that specific thing...
My brother-in-law was a skilled model maker in the model shop of a huge international organization, based primarily in the USA. Often engineers would use exactly the system you describe to specify sizes in a blue print. So if they wanted a hole with clearance for a common bolt, they might indicate the size with a written spec like: .625", if they wanted a 5/8" hole. But one net result is that the model makers and tool makers were trained to provide tolerances following the specs exactly as shown on the print. SO...when a guy was going to make a hole shown in the print as .625", he would go through several operations to get that hole exactly accurate down to the one-hundred thousandth, because it was "specified" that way in the dimension on the print! Yet the hole might be nothing more than a rough hole which a 9/16 mounting bolt would be inserted through...no need to be more accurate than a tenth...or at least a hundredth.

Occasionally a tool-maker or model-maker would try to explain that to an engineer, but one at least one situation a highly-educated engineer puffed up and told the tool man that engineeers had lots of formal education, and didn't need instructions from guys, "...on the floor." So from then on, such holes were made and polished very carefully to the precise dimension, regardless of how long it took.

Gee....I wonder what happened to GM's prosperity?

And, to stay on topic, I still buy SAE tools...while I'm slowly adding metrics to the mix.

 

[porschedude996TT]

Hmmmm. Interesting that you mention that specific thing...
My brother-in-law was a skilled model maker in the model shop of a huge international organization, based primarily in the USA. Often engineers would use exactly the system you describe to specify sizes in a blue print. So if they wanted a hole with clearance for a common bolt, they might indicate the size with a written spec like: .625", if they wanted a 5/8" hole. But one net result is that the model makers and tool makers were trained to provide tolerances following the specs exactly as shown on the print. SO...when a guy was going to make a hole shown in the print as .625", he would go through several operations to get that hole exactly accurate down to the one-hundred thousandth, because it was "specified" that way in the dimension on the print! Yet the hole might be nothing more than a rough hole which a 9/16 mounting bolt would be inserted through...no need to be more accurate than a tenth...or at least a hundredth.

Occasionally a tool-maker or model-maker would try to explain that to an engineer, but one at least one situation a highly-educated engineer puffed up and told the tool man that engineeers had lots of formal education, and didn't need instructions from guys, "...on the floor." So from then on, such holes were made and polished very carefully to the precise dimension, regardless of how long it took.

Gee....I wonder what happened to GM's prosperity?

And, to stay on topic, I still buy SAE tools...while I'm slowly adding metrics to the mix.

"accurate down to the one-hundred thousandth"

That would be .00001 of and inch. I think you meant 1/1,000 of an inch. Typically on a drawing there is a "Tolerance Block" that would give the +/- allowances. See attachment "Tolerand Block. Also attached is what we use in the engineering design world and would place the required dimension on the drawing.

Sorry for being so fuzzy, that is best image at the maximum file size that can be uploaded.

 

[AustinRoepke]

I'm a student in the College of Engineering at the U of I. Even though I grew up with SAE, when it comes to designing systems metric is way easier. Everything is done in metric. We don't really cover any conversions or use of SAE because most companies that engineers graduate and go to are going metric (John Deere, Caterpillar, Lockheed Martin).

We only use SAE when we work on older john deere's.

 

[aczr2k]

We had JD combines made in the USA, half metric, half sae. Macdon headers come from Canada, all sae? Figure that one out? Only explanation from the Macdon rep was Sae was cheaper. Talk about a pain in the *** to work on.

And yes I still buy Sae, everthing we design at work is Sae unless purchased components require metric. And most of "our" farm stuff is all sae still.

 

[Lump]

"accurate down to the one-hundred thousandth"

That would be .00001 of and inch. I think you meant 1/1,000 of an inch. Typically on a drawing there is a "Tolerance Block" that would give the +/- allowances. See attachment "Tolerand Block. Also attached is what we use in the engineering design world and would place the required dimension on the drawing.

Sorry for being so fuzzy, that is best image at the maximum file size that can be uploaded.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right about that dimension. I was never any kind of tool maker or model-maker myself, and the only thousandths I ever worked with were feeler gauges on engine parts.
My brother-in-law explained the story to me, and he was a top-notch model-maker. The prints came down from engineers upstairs, and according to him, they came down in differing styles, depending on the individual engineers.

Because he had to work in both SAE and metric dimensions on GM projects, he has both kinds of tools. Besides, he does a lot of his own repairs on his modern transportation, and needs both to do so. Me...I don't enjoy working on anything newer than about 1974.

 

[MotoDave]

"accurate down to the one-hundred thousandth"

That would be .00001 of and inch. I think you meant 1/1,000 of an inch. Typically on a drawing there is a "Tolerance Block" that would give the +/- allowances. See attachment "Tolerand Block. Also attached is what we use in the engineering design world and would place the required dimension on the drawing.

Sorry for being so fuzzy, that is best image at the maximum file size that can be uploaded.

Yeah, i've never seen an engineering drawing that didn't have a block tolerance. I will say there are a lot of engineers out there with limited knowledge of how the parts they draw are actually made and assembled. My boss leaves everything at 3 place block tolerance (±.010), even for rough tooling and test fixtures. Nothing gained except higher cost of his parts vs mine

I hope to think of myself as an exception to that rule, I make it a point to assemble the first batch of any parts I've designed. How else do you learn what works and what is a huge pain in the *** to assemble?

 

[Lump]

Yeah, i've never seen an engineering drawing that didn't have a block tolerance. I will say there are a lot of engineers out there with limited knowledge of how the parts they draw are actually made and assembled. My boss leaves everything at 3 place block tolerance (±.010), even for rough tooling and test fixtures. Nothing gained except higher cost of his parts vs mine

I hope to think of myself as an exception to that rule, I make it a point to assemble the first batch of any parts I've designed. How else do you learn what works and what is a huge pain in the *** to assemble?

Agreed. Lee, my brother-in-law, is really good at figuring out how to make things work, and to improve designs to make them work better. But like most real craftsman I know, he is very proud and a little stubborn. Those engineers who treated him with courtesy and respect, and who knew what they were doing, got the benefit of having him point out flaws in their designs, and of his suggestions for solutions to problems. Other guys and gals he just followed their prints EXACTLY, even if he knew the part would fail, or could not even be machined as designed.

OP...sorry to be off topic. I should point out that, when Lee retired about a year and a half ago, they were still designating SAE parts and/or specs on some of the GM projects he was working on. And many of these items were planned for vehicles which are still not yet in production. So Lee thinks that mechanics and technicians who want to have the right tools for most different applications will be keeping some SAE tools in their boxes for quite a while yet.

 

[AustinRoepke]

While both SAE and metric will be used in the future, the metric set will be receiving more work with newer stuff.

 

[Lump]

While both SAE and metric will be used in the future, the metric set will be receiving more work with newer stuff.

Agreed, 1X.

As I have said...I'm a dinosaur, and my world is the past. My grandson won't be able to figure out why we bothered with such archaic SAE specs. But I hope he'll learn that system well enough to get by...if he wants to keep my old cars.

Now, let me get back to working on my Hupmobile.

 

[TireTracks]

I buy SAE, my dodge only has a few metrics, all put in the emishions ****.

and thats going bye bye slowly, so i wont need any soon.

 

[pmohr]

SHHHHHH i don't think i'm allowed to say that in public .... then i might get credit for some of my work! Headers in the car aren't that bad, but of course i've got so much wrench time on those chassis now its ridiculous. Doing the design for the TT kits, i had everything in and out so many times what is hard for a lot of people is now like second nature for me.

Are you still working for a shop?

A shop (Firestone), but not that shop; that place was a nightmare. The people were some of the best, but it was all ruined by management.

I'll give you a hint, 3 letters, hated by most of the 3000GT/Stealth community, Z/G community, and more than likely at some point the GTR community as well. They also recently closed down and changed names due to their previous issues.

 

[Stuart in MN]

But SAE seems a lot more logical to a lot of us that lived in the U.S. all our lives, it's just a matter of what you are used to.

Don't they teach it in school any more? I learned about the metric system in 5th grade, back in 1967.

 

[MarcSeattle]

While both SAE and metric will be used in the future, the metric set will be receiving more work with newer stuff.

Especially at Deere. Their facilities have been in US, Brazil and Germany, and they recently added China and India. Everything will get standardized around metric. At this point the U.S. is viewed as a smaller market for them, and the U.S. is tiny in terms of growth potential.

To the OP's question: I have full sets of both, but I can't remember the last time I used inches in the garage except for drill bits. Woodworking and carpentry is a different story, but I look forward to the day when America gets out of the stone age. Fractions are such a pain to work with. Slower, more likely to cause an error, etc.

 

[1984GMC]

Americans ***** and moan about how we can't sell things abroad. Duh, if the world is metric and we're building fractional, then what can we expect? I'm surprised at the opinions expressed in this thread. "Metric is for girly men"? WTF. Converting to metric means more American manufacturing and more American jobs.

Who would have thunk that converting to metric would be the patriotic thing to do?

Hey , They forced it on us now we need to force SAE back on them, Don/t hate cause they are too stupid to know how to work with fractions, They shouldn't be so lazy.

 

[speed bump]

As one of my electrical buddies keeps saying whenever different countries come up "why the hell didn't we just give them American standard equipment and be done with differences".

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

Don't they teach it in school any more? I learned about the metric system in 5th grade, back in 1967.

Depends on if your dream is to become a Mars probe engineer at Nasa.

 

[Lump]

Don't they teach it in school any more? I learned about the metric system in 5th grade, back in 1967.

Hell, I'm only two years older than you or so....BUT, while they did teach us the metric system, I had absolutely no need to use it when I started wrenching in late 1972. At the Goodyear store where I worked, we didn't see hardly any foreign cars for repairs other than oil changes and tire work. Indeed, in those days, there were a few garages around town that specialized in working on imports, with names like, "Foreign Auto Service", etc. And that is precisely where people took their Hondas, VW's, etc.

So after I learned metrics in school, but never used it, I completely forgot it all pretty darn quickly.

Think about it....without looking it up, can you name the countries of Africa? Can any of us name the 13th president of the USA WITHOUT looking it up? We were all taught those things too...but unless you use a piece of knowledge fairly often, you will forget. Then, when you get my age, you forget a LOT!!

It doesn't mean we are stupid, or that we were not taught a certain thing, or even that we can't learn some new system. But, if we don't use one system at all, but we constantly use the other...which one would you expect us to recall?

That's all I'm saying. Now let's have a beer. It's late and I'm thirsty.

 

[MarcSeattle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcSeattle
Americans ***** and moan about how we can't sell things abroad. Duh, if the world is metric and we're building fractional, then what can we expect? I'm surprised at the opinions expressed in this thread. "Metric is for girly men"? WTF. Converting to metric means more American manufacturing and more American jobs.

Who would have thunk that converting to metric would be the patriotic thing to do?

Hey , They forced it on us now we need to force SAE back on them, Don/t hate cause they are too stupid to know how to work with fractions, They shouldn't be so lazy.

Right. 300 million of us and 6,000 million of them.

Plus, I'll bet the SAE and its members are more than happy to get away from inches.

 

[Indy_500]

Hell, I'm only two years older than you or so....BUT, while they did teach us the metric system, I had absolutely no need to use it when I started wrenching in late 1972. At the Goodyear store where I worked, we didn't see hardly any foreign cars for repairs other than oil changes and tire work. Indeed, in those days, there were a few garages around town that specialized in working on imports, with names like, "Foreign Auto Service", etc. And that is precisely where people took their Hondas, VW's, etc.

So after I learned metrics in school, but never used it, I completely forgot it all pretty darn quickly.

Think about it....without looking it up, can you name the countries of Africa? Can any of us name the 13th president of the USA WITHOUT looking it up? We were all taught those things too...but unless you use a piece of knowledge fairly often, you will forget. Then, when you get my age, you forget a LOT!!

It doesn't mean we are stupid, or that we were not taught a certain thing, or even that we can't learn some new system. But, if we don't use one system at all, but we constantly use the other...which one would you expect us to recall?

That's all I'm saying. Now let's have a beer. It's late and I'm thirsty.

I can only think of 2 countries off the top of my head in Africa: Siberia and Liberia are 2 right? I have no clue who the 13th president is or the 5th or the 4th or the 25th.

 

[rocco]

i have a full set of both, whatever i buy i make sure i have the full ranges of sizes both metric and SAE - thing is that i work on lots of different stuff, the Z28 and the Plymouth are SAE, the Scirocco and daily drivers are Metric, the RV is mostly SAE with some metric, household appliances and such are SAE... i've always found it was a good idea to have both.

 

[ourkid2000]

Siberia......LOL!

 

[cruiser808]

Even with my old 60's Mercedes I use some SAE wrenches and sockets, particularly for the USA a/c system which MB installed as an accessory back in the day. SAE is still very relevent today.

 

[impulse922]

Hey , They forced it on us now we need to force SAE back on them, Don/t hate cause they are too stupid to know how to work with fractions, They shouldn't be so lazy.

i bet you prefer carbs to fuel injection too huh?

 

[redsky49]

I can only think of 2 countries off the top of my head in Africa: Siberia and Liberia are 2 right? I have no clue who the 13th president is or the 5th or the 4th or the 25th.

Now that's funny

 

[crewchief888]

i bet you prefer carbs to fuel injection too huh?

my s-10 is mostly metric except for stuff that i've put on, then it's sae all the way.

being kinda "old school" in my thinking, i'd still prefer fuel inj.
this s-10 is the 1st wheeling truck i ever built with fuel injection, it even stayed running when it rolled over

 

[Sukh]

Hey , They forced it on us now we need to force SAE back on them, Don/t hate cause they are too stupid to know how to work with fractions, They shouldn't be so lazy.

Yeh, America is the power house of export and can force archaic systems on everyone else,,,,,

 

[krooser]

I seldom work on anything newer than the 1980's so my need for SAE tools is still there.

 

[dan76]

the british converted to metric long ago and the good ol USA is the last holdout on a official conversion. the airplane industry may well be the last holdout due to retooling costs.

Actually other than the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar (previously known as Burma) use the SAE system of measurement.

For the record, I maintain/restore several vehicles (from 1941-2006) therefore need both full sets of SAE and metric.

 

[MarcSeattle]

I can only think of 2 countries off the top of my head in Africa.

Name them? Hell, I don't remember how many countries are in Africa.

Wikipedia (always handy) says there are 54 countries in Africa.

 

[poprockcrusher]

the trick is NOT to work on a car for a living
too crazy
but ...reality sets in
buy both , looks cooler to have overflowing drawers

 

[poprockcrusher]

i bet you prefer carbs to fuel injection too huh?

carbs - more power for less dough

 

[Mickey O]

At the end of WWII we should made everyone go with SAE, lesson learned, next world war we do it.

 

[caper]

Next world war we'll be learning Chinese not fractions.

 

[Indy_500]

I seldom work on anything newer than the 1980's so my need for SAE tools is still there.

I noticed the word symco in your sig and i was like hey i know where that is! then looked and you from waupaca!