Who here won this box for $6k

[M900]

2 ways...

In court the original buyer says "Whell I don't own it anymore" & then the judge requires him to tell whom he sold it to. When I was a tech, I saw this happen. I guess you didnt read post #58...

Or, you think it's all free & clear. 3 years down the road a slide fails. You then(possibly) ask your favorite tool man to warranty the slides. Matco requires the serial # for them to be warrantied. What, the tag on the back has been removed? No problem, there are others!(Yes, there are other tags...that can also be removed.) Matco now has the serial #(Maybe.), shop location( or the location of a shop where someone meets the dealer to buy stuff but doesnt actually work at, and may never return to again.), & current owner's(possibly fake) name. Box(not) found!

We have a few local Snap On guys that automatically check the serial # on the boxes of any new techs in a shop.

I fixed it for you with my red comments...

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I fixed it for you with my red comments...

So why all the secrecy about your identity, M900? What are you hiding?

 

[southernfriedcj]

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable buying something I suspected had money owed on it, but that's just me.

I don't think it's just you. It's the majority of us here.

It's really not, I wish they would put more emphasis on a search button so we don't have this worthless content brought up again and again.

I search and found no facts. Why do you come back to this thread if it bothers you?

As I posted earlier, and apparantly started all this nonsense, afaik Matco is the only manufacturer that actually does keep a central record of serial numbers.

So what do you do if you want to buy a box that was manufactured by someone else?
Buy it an hope it doen't get repo'ed.


I have found a smokin' deal on a used Snap On box (the guy wants $6,500 for a $23,000 box). It did not occur to me that the box may be liened (until this thread I didn't know that was a possibility). I don't think it is stolen because he ran an add with pictures (that would take balls, it's a huge box in a strange color). Other than asking for a paid contract (which he may have if he is the original owner) what can a buyer do to protect himself.

 

[Skyline]

in my experience the police will not help with a repossesion.....

Around here, we have County Sherrifs. They do nothing but this sort of thing, no actual criminal law enforcement. All property disputes, evictions, that sort of thing. I know my Snap-on dealer has used them.

In NYC, I believe there are Marshals...pretty much the same thing as our Sherrifs.

 

[krusty the clown]

Around here, we have County Sherrifs. They do nothing but this sort of thing, no actual criminal law enforcement. All property disputes, evictions, that sort of thing. I know my Snap-on dealer has used them.

In NYC, I believe there are Marshals...pretty much the same thing as our Sherrifs.

i wish that was the case here.......

on one repo i did the cops were called by the shop owner, who was refusing to let me repo a box that a former employee left. the police would not allow me to remove the box even though i had a signed contract. they said it simply wasn't thier job to determine who gets to keep the box and if i didn't leave peacefully i would be arrested for tresspassing.

 

[Skyline]

I don't think it's just you. It's the majority of us here.



I search and found no facts. Why do you come back to this thread if it bothers you?


So what do you do if you want to buy a box that was manufactured by someone else?
Buy it an hope it doen't get repo'ed.


I have found a smokin' deal on a used Snap On box (the guy wants $6,500 for a $23,000 box). It did not occur to me that the box may be liened (until this thread I didn't know that was a possibility). I don't think it is stolen because he ran an add with pictures (that would take balls, it's a huge box in a strange color). Other than asking for a paid contract (which he may have if he is the original owner) what can a buyer do to protect himself.

I think it really ***** that Snap-on (not sure abourt MAC or Cornwell) do not keep a central database of serial numbers. It hurts their dealers in the long run, and it would be a simple thing to do.

But they do keep a list of credit balances by NAME. So if you can get a sellers name, (I think it should be SOP to ask for a driver's license ID for a major purchase anyway), you can call the finance department and ask if they have an outstanding balance for that person.

But none of these things will help if a box is bought on truck credit. While there is still probably a UCC, chances are, no one has documentation about the sale other than the original dealer. While I'd guess there are not too many boxes sold on truck credit, my dealer NEVER uses home office financing...he does not want Snap-on breathing down his neck for delinquent customers. He makes more money this way, and can well afford the outlay...he's one of the top guys in the country.

So let's say you buy a box, and while the seller seems legit, can not provide any sort of documentation. You call Snap-on, and nothing is owed by the seller. So let's say you need a drawer slide, (this warantee is supposed to only be to the original buyer anyway!). Do you give your Snappy guy the serial number and ask him to warantee it? Smart thing would be to buy one pair of new slides and eat the cost. If you needed more, then send the broken ones in to Snap-on for free replacement, (you will not be asked for a serial number). There really is no reason anyone but you has to see the sticker on the back of your box.

 

[southernfriedcj]

Skyline,
your post gave me a thought. If the item (toolbox) is warranted by the manufacturer they could require a registration for the warranty to be transferable. If you could download a form from the manufacturer for the warranty transfer it could show you any outstanding liens against the item, as well as who the current owner is. That would go a long way in a buyer be sure he wasn't purchasing a stolen box or one with an outstanding lien.

 

[Skyline]

Skyline,
your post gave me a thought. If the item (toolbox) is warranted by the manufacturer they could require a registration for the warranty to be transferable. If you could download a form from the manufacturer for the warranty transfer it could show you any outstanding liens against the item, as well as who the current owner is. That would go a long way in a buyer be sure he wasn't purchasing a stolen box or one with an outstanding lien.

Nice thought, but at least with Snap-on, warantees are not transferable.

 

[krusty the clown]

But none of these things will help if a box is bought on truck credit. While there is still probably a UCC, chances are, no one has documentation about the sale other than the original dealer.

there will not be a UCC since it isn't an interstate transaction.

Nice thought, but at least with Snap-on, warantees are not transferable.

on paper that is correct, but in reallity it will depend on your dealer. a guy i worked with recently warranteed a set of slides on a used box he had bought.

edit: i should add that the dealer DID record the SN of the box before he agreed to replace the slides.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

As I posted earlier, and apparantly started all this nonsense, afaik Matco is the only manufacturer that actually does keep a central record of serial numbers. So for sure, calling them on a used box of theirs is a really good idea. But the reality is I don't think they really care.....

I went to look at a Matco tripple bank, loaded with tools. Guy says he bought it from a friend. We agreed on $7K. I called Matco with the serial no. and $8.5K was still owed by friend. Current owner has no desire to pay Matco. I walked. I asked Matco if they wanted to know the location of the box, (mind you I had to ask them!). They said yes, and they would have it reposessed. All I know is that the same guy was still trying to sell the same box 6 mos later on Craigslist.....so I presume Matco did nothing.

I think the bulk of the burden for unpaid boxes falls on the dealers. Ask any dealer, and I'm sure they can tell you stories of repossessions, I presume some with help of local LEOs.

I agree. I would have a moral issue with buying a box that hadn't been properly paid off, but I really think legally it's a gray area, and it's an issue between the original buyer and seller. Matco just sort of created a VIN-type system out of thin air that doesn't have any real legal standing like an automobile or a house lien would.

It would be like if someone racked up a bunch of purchases on their VISA and were in deliquency, and the credit card company then expected the cops to go track down every item the person bought. If they went to a nice place to dinner, would the waiters' tip be repossesed? Of course not. The person that got the loan and didn't pay it off to full satisfaction is responsible, not what happens afterwards.

At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet the number of times where a guy bought a toolbox off someone who didn't pay it off in full, and the tool company finds the second-hand buyer and has the cops forcibly take the tool box back is about the same odds as getting struck by lightning.

 

[Gearhead559]

id pay 6k for it.

 

[krusty the clown]

I agree. I would have a moral issue with buying a box that hadn't been properly paid off, but I really think legallseller.y it's a gray area, and it's an issue between the original buyer and Matco just sort of created a VIN-type system out of thin air that doesn't have any real legal standing like an automobile or a house lien would.

they all use a serial number........not just matco

It would be like if someone racked up a bunch of purchases on their VISA and were in deliquency, and the credit card company then expected the cops to go track down every item the person bought. If they went to a nice place to dinner, would the waiters' tip be repossesed? Of course not. The person that got the loan and didn't pay it off to full satisfaction is responsible, not what happens afterwards.

thats not an apples to apples comparison.......anything charged to a credit card is UNSECURED debt. a toolbox contract is secured debt and is secured by using the toolbox as collateral.

At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet the number of times where a guy bought a toolbox off someone who didn't pay it off in full, and the tool company finds the second-hand buyer and has the cops forcibly take the tool box back is about the same odds as getting struck by lightning.

maybe......maybe not.......i would like to see figures to back that before i make that statement.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

It would be like if someone racked up a bunch of purchases on their VISA and were in deliquency, and the credit card company then expected the cops to go track down every item the person bought. If they went to a nice place to dinner, would the waiters' tip be repossesed? Of course not. The person that got the loan and didn't pay it off to full satisfaction is responsible, not what happens afterwards.

thats not an apples to apples comparison.......anything charged to a credit card is UNSECURED debt. a toolbox contract is secured debt and is secured by using the toolbox as collateral.

Exactly. A credit card bill is unsecured. A tool box loan is secured and the box is the collateral.

I don't understand why a lot of people don't get that concept?!

 

[Skyline]

on paper that is correct, but in reallity it will depend on your dealer. a guy i worked with recently warranteed a set of slides on a used box he had bought.

edit: i should add that the dealer DID record the SN of the box before he agreed to replace the slides.

I think the Snap-on dealer selling a box on truck credit would still want a secured credit application of some sort...maybe UCC is not the correct form.

As far as the slides, I've sent slides in to Snap on, and had no problem getting them waranteed. No need to give them box serial numbers. I know there are other threads where some folks have had less success with this (due to claims by S-o that the slides were worn out and therefore not waranteeable), but my personal experience has been fine.

And even if a dealer does record the S/N, does anyone actually do anything with that information????

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

they all use a serial number........not just matco


thats not an apples to apples comparison.......anything charged to a credit card is UNSECURED debt. a toolbox contract is secured debt and is secured by using the toolbox as collateral.



maybe......maybe not.......i would like to see figures to back that before i make that statement.

They all use serial numbers, but my $25 DVD player also has a serial number. It doesn't mean it's somehow registered legally the same way an automobile is. The state has no record of these toolboxes the same way they would a car or boat.

The whole contract that Matco draws up is between the original buyer and seller. The guy that buys it second-hand never signed anything. I'm guessing most law enforcement agencies wouldn't go after a second-hand buyer in order to repossess a tool box, they wouldn't consider it stolen property. They'd tell the loan company that's their responsibility, it's a civil matter, not a criminal one. Some states may be different, but cops aren't repo men.

I understand the distinction with the box being securitized collateral, but I think we can all agree it's a gray area of the law as far as can cops come and take it away from a second-hand buyer because it's stolen property. My guess is there would first have to be some sort of court-ordered civil judgment against the second-hand buyer by the loan company before a police officer would be allowed to do that.

 

[mcnair06goat]

damn, i just bought a 3 bay matco box with hutch off cl and its fairly new late 06 model. i did not think of even calling matco or even asking the seller if it was payed off. but he was a Chrysler mechanic so im sure he was making good money working on that junk to pay for the box.. i need to call matco for a drawer trim piece and a bumper for the hutch door. does anyone have a chrome trim piece for a matco box?

 

[krusty the clown]

I understand the distinction with the box being securitized collateral, but I think we can all agree it's a gray area of the law as far as can cops come and take it away from a second-hand buyer because it's stolen property. My guess is there would first have to be some sort of court-ordered civil judgment against the second-hand buyer by the loan company before a police officer would be allowed to do that.

they confisacte stolen property every day. do you think if a pawn shop buy's stolen property they are allowed to keep it? they confiscate stolen property from private indiviual's too.......it's held as evidence and then given to it's RIGHTFULL owner(as decided by the judge, and for this discussion that would be matco financial).


i don't understand your thinking here.......

 

[norry]

We have a few local Snap On guys that automatically check the serial # on the boxes of any new techs in a shop.

But against what? If there's no central record? Do they just call each other and see if anyone local is owed money on it?

 

[krusty the clown]

But against what? If there's no central record? Do they just call each other and see if anyone local is owed money on it?

while i believe snap on doesn't keep track of toolbox owner's, i do believe they keep records of the serial numbers on boxes with open contracts.

 

[mtwaterguy]

The point that a lot of people are missing, has to do with equipment purchase contracts. Every one that I've seen has a clause in it that states the purchaser cannot resell the equipment before it's paid off, without the lenders permission. To do so violates the contract and gives the seller the right to either demand full payment or return of the equipment.

 

[daveblank]

I fixed it for you with my red comments...

No, you did not fix it for me, you fixed it to fit your needs. I did read the other post. If any Joe off the street wants me to warranty toolbox parts, I refer them to Matco directly. That saves me time & money for someone that I never deal with. Therefore, If I'm calling Matco, my original statement stands & they know where the box is.

There are too many "what if" type of situations in your post. Krusty, myself, & others are telling you the real world situations.

 

[Billin21]

2 ways...

Or, you think it's all free & clear. 3 years down the road a slide fails. You then ask your favorite tool man to warranty the slides. Matco requires the serial # for them to be warrantied. What, the tag on the back has been removed? No problem, there are others! Matco now has the serial #, shop location, & current owner's name. Box found!

We have a few local Snap On guys that automatically check the serial # on the boxes of any new techs in a shop.

We actually just had this happen in my district. The guy bought a box that still had money owed on it, Needed a couple slides. so, he calls Matco, They get all his info and are sending my DM and a dealer to go retrieve it...

 

[Hiball]

I will say this thread has opened my eyes to a possible sitsuation that i dont want to find myself in. Although i dont agree with the secondary buyer being liable for the initial owners contract violation, I do understand the reasoning. I have to meet with the family lawyer in Febuary to take care of some other business and i am gonna ask for some clarification and if theres a legal binding form that can release me from liability on future tool purchases not just toolboxes, because frankly the tool box financing is just a small part of this who equation. I will post a follow up, explaining any legal exemption that is available in the "Show Me State" Thats missouri for the slow, sometimes called Misery.

 

[krusty the clown]

Although i dont agree with the secondary buyer being liable for the initial owners contract violation, I do understand the reasoning.

it's kind of confusing but i don't think the secondary buyer is liable for anything including the balance of the contract. but legally he has recieved stolen property.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

There are too many "what if" type of situations in your post. Krusty, myself, & others are telling you the real world situations.

Didn't you know, Dave? Nobody knows M900's name.

Not even his mom!

 

[krusty the clown]

Didn't you know, Dave? Nobody knows M900's name.

Not even his mom!

he's a double 0 naught naught agent

 

[autoace]

So, the seller tells Matco I have the box. Matco shows up at my house demanding "their" box. I tell Matco to pound sand.
Game over. There is no title and no public record (deed).
How would Matco get the box from me? A civil lawsuit that would cost more in attorney fees than the box?

I agree, there are no "titles" like a car. The agreement is with the original purchaser, the "seller" owes the company, not the buyer.

Matco in this case, can sue and or take the original purchaser to court. They would be hard pressed to take the box one had bought from the original buyer. Matco can't break the law, to get their box back. So you could tell them to pound sand, they wouldn't come to your door anyway, they would soil the credit of the big zero, that sold it with a balance owed on it, then sell the bad debt to a collection agency for a fraction, and write off the right to offset taxes, etc....

Matco in this case would not have a leg to stand on, getting the box from the second buyer.

 

[autoace]

i wish that was the case here.......

on one repo i did the cops were called by the shop owner, who was refusing to let me repo a box that a former employee left. the police would not allow me to remove the box even though i had a signed contract. they said it simply wasn't thier job to determine who gets to keep the box and if i didn't leave peacefully i would be arrested for tresspassing.

Exactly, like I said,they can't just take it.

 

[Shocker]

Starts making the Montezume and International boxes more appealing.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Matco in this case would not have a leg to stand on, getting the box from the second buyer.

Sounds like it depends on the state, and maybe even the county this takes place in.

 

[autoace]

they confisacte stolen property every day. do you think if a pawn shop buy's stolen property they are allowed to keep it? they confiscate stolen property from private indiviual's too.......it's held as evidence and then given to it's RIGHTFULL owner(as decided by the judge, and for this discussion that would be matco financial).


i don't understand your thinking here.......

Defaulted is the word, not stolen. Where I think it is wrong for someone to sell not fully paid stuff. The loan is defaulted, not actually stolen, big difference in court.

 

[autoace]

Starts making the Montezume and International boxes more appealing.

You said it, Extreme Tool's boxes look great..........Tool boxes are just sheet metal, slides, and paint, yet they sell for as much as a car??????????????? off the tool trucks.

There is soo much profit in the things it is ridiculous!

 

[walrus]

You said it, Extreme Tool's boxes look great..........Tool boxes are just sheet metal, slides, and paint, yet they sell for as much as a car??????????????? off the tool trucks.

There is soo much profit in the things it is ridiculous!

.

I have a brand new Montezuma siting on an old Snap on Roller, the difference is night and day. The Snap on is made to open and close a million times a day, no way that Montezuma takes that. Its great for me and I like the box but there's no comparison if you ask me

 

[krusty the clown]

Defaulted is the word, not stolen. Where I think it is wrong for someone to sell not fully paid stuff. The loan is defaulted, not actually stolen, big difference in court.

it is in the contract that the box belongs to the finance company UNTILL it paid in full. even if the loan is not in default it cannot be sold untill the balance is settled. if you sell something that doesn't belong to you it is stolen from it's rightful owner............

 

[wreckercologist]

it is in the contract that the box belongs to the finance company UNTILL it paid in full. even if the loan is not in default it cannot be sold untill the balance is settled. if you sell something that doesn't belong to you it is stolen from it's rightful owner............

That's how I understand it. Just like every other loan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some tool contracts state you must keep the items financed at work until paid off. I think my Matco contract might be that way, but I don't remember for sure.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Defaulted is the word, not stolen. Where I think it is wrong for someone to sell not fully paid stuff. The loan is defaulted, not actually stolen, big difference in court.

Exactly. The cops can "take" something back if it's been stolen in the criminal sense (i.e. someone was robbed) but a loan not paid in full is a civil matter that has to be figured out by a judge between the original buyer and seller.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Exactly. The cops can "take" something back if it's been stolen in the criminal sense (i.e. someone was robbed) but a loan not paid in full is a civil matter that has to be figured out by a judge between the original buyer and seller.

No, b/c the toolbox is the collateral for the loan. Remember, it's a secured loan. If you buy it, take it, whatever, from the original owner, you posess stolen property, whether you were aware of it or not. How could that not be criminal?

If what you're proposing above is true, what's to stop someone from taking anything he takes out a specific loan against, then transferring that property to a friend, a relative, etc.? Then the person who took out the loan declares bankruptcy and the tool truck company can't recovery the money or the box.

Now the tool truck company getting their toolbox back is another matter. That's what I think can vary from state to state, the laws governing repossession.

 

[krusty the clown]

man.......i can't believe some people can't get it.

 

[daveblank]

No, b/c the toolbox is the collateral for the loan. Remember, it's a secured loan. If you buy it, take it, whatever, from the original owner, you posess stolen property, whether you were aware of it or not. How could that not be criminal?

If what you're proposing above is true, what's to stop someone from taking anything he takes out a specific loan against, then transferring that property to a friend, a relative, etc.? Then the person who took out the loan declares bankruptcy and the tool truck company can't recovery the money or the box.

Now the tool truck company getting their toolbox back is another matter. That's what I think can vary from state to state, the laws governing repossession.

Also, remember this. Since it's a secured debt loan, the tool box & tools on the loan cannot be included in bankruptcy proceedings.

 

[Hiball]

Also, remember this. Since it's a secured debt loan, the tool box & tools on the loan cannot be included in bankruptcy proceedings.

Depending on what type of Bankruptcy. If deemed that the person needs his tools to perform his job and "said person" files for Chapter 13. Im sure the judge would allow the claim into the kitty.