Who here won this box for $6k

[sctattooer]

Interesting read. I can see both sides of the fence, to a degree. I understand the manufacturers claim to the item as the security of the loan, but don't you think a high ticket item like this, that's being used to secure a loan of significant value, should have the numbers stamped on each part of it, especially if it's being given a warranty?

Please, something worth 20k only gets a twenty-five cent sticker to identify it??



All I can add to this is that if I buy a box from a private seller that has no serial numbers on it, then there is doubt as to whether this box is the actual box that the manufacturer claims it is. Therefore, good luck to any man who tries to take possession of it.

 

[MrMark]

Finally, the correct answer. The whole thing depends on notice to the buyer and whether the buyer was acting in good faith. Just like any other secured commercial transaction under the UCC. The UCC filing constitutes such constructive notice. You have to check before buying, that is the bottom line. If the finance compancy filed the proper paperwork with the Secretary of State then they will have the right to peacefully take the box back if they can find it. This is a standard commercial transaction governed by the UCC.

I seriously doubt that the seller committed the crime of theft under any statute or the common law. It would require some research.

No, not in most American states. We (mostly) use the UCC in our states. The seller (legal term in this instance that means the guy who bought it from snap on and is now selling it to you) is selling to you the buyer.

If you the buyer purchased in good faith the legal question is whether you had notice. Notice is done through the UCC filing system in each state, usually through the secretary of state. In other words, did the creditor (say snap on here) properly file a UCC notice. Since revised article 9 came out about 10 years ago, this also means did they properly comply with the model search logic--which is its own legal/admin question for court.

Anyhow, before you the buyer buy you need to check the UCC system for the seller. If there is a filing, don't buy. If there is a filing, made properly, and you didn't check or you missed it, things start to get bad.

Depending on the state, so this is a general overview, your state may vary, if the creditor had a proper filing and you purchased anyway, you take ownership of the tools/box with the same title the seller had, a voidable title. That means the creditor can send someone to a place of business to try to pick up the goods in a peaceful manner. In some states they can also try to do that from a home--but not as many states.

The creditor, their agent (the repo man), or both are on the hook for illegal activities during the repo, including breach of the peace. In other words, if the snap on guy finds out you purchased a box from his customer and comes to your home and starts kicking the door and yellling the cops are coming to arrest you, video it--you have hit the legal jackpot.

The proper legal step for the creditor is to file--what most states call--a claim and delivery action. For example, snap on finds out you purchased a box from one of their customers, they think they filed the UCC correctly, they sue you with the goal of the suit being a court order against you to turn over the box. During that suit you get to argue something back against the creditor--most of the time in these suits the argument is they didn't file correctly (that model search logic stuff) so 'I wouldn't be able to find your filing with a reasonable search'.

If the creditor 1) screwed up the filing or didn't do one, and 2) you acted in 'good faith' as part of the purchase (a legal concept and term of art just for the uniform commerical code--but at its heart you acted as a reasonable and honest buyer would and you paid a fair value)-- then you as the buyer get better than the seller's voidable title, you get good title even against the creditor.

If you get the good title legally, then the creditor is out of luck as far as your tools go. They are reduced back to suing the seller for the money he owes them.

The lesson here? Check the UCC before you plunk down 6k on a box of tools, keep the results of that check, and get something in writing from the seller showing that you paid some reasonable amount.

 

[SteveV]

Defaulted is the word, not stolen. Where I think it is wrong for someone to sell not fully paid stuff. The loan is defaulted, not actually stolen, big difference in court.

I agree, this is the critical distinction. Has anyone gone to prison for not paying off their toolbox in full? There's no such thing as "debtor's prison" in this country. If a person bought a toolbox on loan and "lost" it and refused to pay the loan, they're not going to prison (even though I think they should). There's a big difference between stolen property and defaulting on a loan.

 

[krusty the clown]

I agree, this is the critical distinction. Has anyone gone to prison for not paying off their toolbox in full? There's no such thing as "debtor's prison" in this country. If a person bought a toolbox on loan and "lost" it and refused to pay the loan, they're not going to prison (even though I think they should). There's a big difference between stolen property and defaulting on a loan.

your confusing TWO separate issues........

it is not criminal to default on a loan........HOWEVER it is to sell something you don't own.

the issue here is selling a toolbox that the finance company technically owns.

i guess this concept has escaped most posters

 

[MrMark]

You can't just say it's theft. You have to look at each state's specific theft statute. I would not be optimistic that selling something you are lawfully in possession of but have not paid off qualifies as a theft. I think it is important that the wrongfull seller is in lawful possession. He breached his contract for sure, but breach of a contract is not a crime. I would also look at the more promising criminal fraud statute that might apply against the seller depending on what he represented to the buyer when he sold the box.

 

[Happyshooter]

You have no idea how many mistakes get made. I have been in court arguing about whether a special tool builder's lien metal tab is effective without a full address. I won't know the answer because we settled.

That was a $500,000 machine the builder plain didn't do everything its law firm said to.

(10 second version: a special tool builder lien in my state is better than a standard purchase money interest, but requires a metal tab for the same reason you suggested in your post)

Interesting read. I can see both sides of the fence, to a degree. I understand the manufacturers claim to the item as the security of the loan, but don't you think a high ticket item like this, that's being used to secure a loan of significant value, should have the numbers stamped on each part of it, especially if it's being given a warranty?

Please, something worth 20k only gets a twenty-five cent sticker to identify it??



All I can add to this is that if I buy a box from a private seller that has no serial numbers on it, then there is doubt as to whether this box is the actual box that the manufacturer claims it is. Therefore, good luck to any man who tries to take possession of it.

 

[quneur]

...

Applaud!

Back in the days when I first started drafting, we used mainframes (200K easy). Our firm was considered medium to large approx. 10 employees but you needed such a system for CAD to stay competitve. Hundred thousand dollars system of yesterday can be replaced by $500 machine + $150 CAD license (Intellicad) today.

 

[MrMark]

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/13/5/s484.1

If the seller sells it to a pawnbroker or "second hand" dealer it could be theft in CA provides the seller gives false information as to ownership.

I did not see anything similar for sales to a private party.

 

[southernfriedcj]

So if you can buy a huge yellow box for $6k and it is considered a deal, is this black Macsimizer for $7k overpriced?

http://sd.craigslist.org/tls/1566736044.html

I've seen the guy post it a few times over the past month or so...obviously no takers yet.

I bet you could walk in with $4,000 cash and take that box home, after you ran it through UCC, called the manufacturer, got a notarized lien release, and a picture of the seller.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

You can't just say it's theft.

He did. Because it is.

You have to look at each state's specific theft statute.

Selling something you don't fully own is theft. It's pretty clear.

I would not be optimistic that selling something you are lawfully in possession of but have not paid off qualifies as a theft. I think it is important that the wrongfull seller is in lawful possession. He breached his contract for sure, but breach of a contract is not a crime. I would also look at the more promising criminal fraud statute that might apply against the seller depending on what he represented to the buyer when he sold the box.

Doesn't matter whether you're optimistic or pessimistic.
Doesn't matter if you hit the winning lotto ticket or missed it by one number.
Doesn't matter if you got the hottest chick at the bar or her ugly friend.
Doesn't matter if you ran the red light and didn't get caught or you did.
Doesn't matter if you **** your pants or made it to the bathroom in time.

It's theft...assuming the seller is going to default on the loan.

 

[scooby074]

Ok, I talked to a lawyer friend of mine today.

My understanding of the situation was completely wrong.

As it was explained to me, its very similar to what Happyshooter said.

Basically the new purchaser is free and clear of Matco in this case. So long as he purchased the box in good faith.

Its up to the original seller (matco) to file a chattel mortgage on the box at the time of sale. If this mortgage is in effect ,and registered with the proper authorities, then my original understanding is correct, assuming the new purchaser is in the same jurisdiction as the mortgage.Ie: matco can repossess the box and the second purchaser has to sue the seller to recoup.

If the box has a chattel mortgage on it, but is out of the jurisdiction where its registered, then the new buyer is in the clear. THis is why many chattel mortgages have restrictions on moving the item. If the original purchaser moved, and matco found out, they have to refile the mortgage in the new location.

Its up to matco to file the mortgage to protect their interests.

The only person Matco can go after is the original purchaser assuming there's no chattel mortgage or the new purchaser is outside that mortgage's area

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

Thats the most technical answer yet! That makes a ton of sense.

 

[sberry]

I wouldnt feel like I WON anything I had to pay 6K for.

 

[krusty the clown]

Ok, I talked to a lawyer friend of mine today.

My understanding of the situation was completely wrong.

As it was explained to me, its very similar to what Happyshooter said.

Basically the new purchaser is free and clear of Matco in this case. So long as he purchased the box in good faith.

Its up to the original seller (matco) to file a chattel mortgage on the box at the time of sale. If this mortgage is in effect ,and registered with the proper authorities, then my original understanding is correct, assuming the new purchaser is in the same jurisdiction as the mortgage.Ie: matco can repossess the box and the second purchaser has to sue the seller to recoup.

If the box has a chattel mortgage on it, but is out of the jurisdiction where its registered, then the new buyer is in the clear. THis is why many chattel mortgages have restrictions on moving the item. If the original purchaser moved, and matco found out, they have to refile the mortgage in the new location.

Its up to matco to file the mortgage to protect their interests.

The only person Matco can go after is the original purchaser assuming there's no chattel mortgage or the new purchaser is outside that mortgage's area

see this......

In the United States
Main article: Secured transactions in the United States
In the United States, chattel mortgages are referred to as secured transactions. Such transactions are governed in most states by Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code.



so then when a UCC is file (as in the case of a toolbox loan) it is a chattel mortgage. so the toolbox CAN be repossesed by matco

 

[MrMark]

What if the seller (who had no contractual right to sell the box without paying it off) uses the money to keep making payments? This would still be theft for those in the "it is theft because I say it is" crowd because the seller sold property he did not fully own. What exactly was stolen from Matco in this case?

Theft requires intent to permanently deprive someone else of their goods among other things. I don't see intent here.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

OR USES part of THE MONEY TO PAY OFF THE BOX?

 

[MrMark]

Texas has a specific statute against this sort of thing.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/texasstatecases/sc/010910.pdf

If this were simple theft, why the need for this statute entitled "hindering secured creditors".

At least the Snap-on guys in Texas have criminal recourse.

 

[scooby074]

see this......

In the United States
Main article: Secured transactions in the United States
In the United States, chattel mortgages are referred to as secured transactions. Such transactions are governed in most states by Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code.



so then when a UCC is file (as in the case of a toolbox loan) it is a chattel mortgage. so the toolbox CAN be repossesed by matco

I agree the toolbox can be repossessed so long as their is a chattle mortgage REGISTERED correctly and the buyer is within its jurisdiction.

however if the buyer is out of state (province) in my case, they box cant be repossessed even if there's a chattel mortgage in place, they're only valid in the provinces in which they are registered. Hence the restrictions on moving these financed items/

The mortgage would have to be filed (registered) correctly as well. It might not be worth the cost to file the mortgage to some companies especially for lower amounts so the company weighs the costs of filing vs the cost if the person defaults.

Personally, i dont think this is right. In my mind the box belongs to Matco since they were the ones that trusted you to pay it off. Legally though it appears my opinion is wrong, at least here in canada.

***** that all you have to do is go to a neighboring province and you can sell the item free and clear (although your still responsible to repay the debt). Matco in this case should be able to pick up the item no matter where its located.

If someones in such a position where theyre selling their toolbox, im betting that bankrupcy follows in many situitations, leaving the deadbeat seller with 6k in his pocket and matco with neither the toolbox or the money for it.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

What if the seller (who had no contractual right to sell the box without paying it off) uses the money to keep making payments? This would still be theft for those in the "it is theft because I say it is" crowd because the seller sold property he did not fully own. What exactly was stolen from Matco in this case?

Theft requires intent to permanently deprive someone else of their goods among other things. I don't see intent here.

You didn't read my post. I said if the owner sells the box and defaults on the loan. If he's honest, he's going to take the proceeds from selling the box to pay off the loan. Matco won't care who owns it b/c the loan has been paid off.

There's someone in classifieds right now who is trying to sell his box for enough money to pay it off b/c he can't afford the payments anymore. Nothing wrong with that, as long as he pays it off. Now assuming he has that money in his hands and that little devil makes an appearance on his shoulder and talks him into using the money for something else, and he defaults on the toolbox loan, then yes, that is theft.

Theft isn't a hard concept to understand. But if you want to keep arguing 2+2 = 5, be my guest.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

Right,The seller should not sell the box if he still owes money on it,however if the unsuspecting buyer buys it in good faith then Matco should go after the the slickster that sold it,hopefully Matco made sure that the original buyer was creditworthy.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

that makes no sense '67.
You agree that if the seller continues to make his payment and does'nt default it isn't theft but as soon as he defaults its theft.

Well the seller has been making his regular payments for a year but now has been layed off and defaults on the loan after a year or so, this is theft?

Absolutely not.

Now Matco says "you lost your job and can no longer afford to pay for it? Give us back our box or we'll come and get it.(Repossesion)." "What's that, you sold it?Well we're going to have to sue you for the remaining balance" which results in his wages being garnished.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

that makes no sense '67.
You agree that if the seller continues to make his payment and does'nt default it isn't theft but as soon as he defaults its theft.

Let me clarify. If he sells the box TO PAY OFF THE LOAN AND DOES SO IMMEDIATELY WITH THE PROCEEDS, I don't see a problem with that.

If he sells the box, but doesn't pay off the loan, just keeps making the regular payment, I do see a problem with that b/c there is a chance for default...and the collateral is gone.

Well the seller has been making his regular payments for a year but now has been layed off and defaults on the loan after a year or so, this is theft?

Absolutely not.

Now Matco says "you lost your job and can no longer afford to pay for it? Give us back our box or we'll come and get it.(Repossesion)." "What's that, you sold it?Well we're going to have to sue you for the remaining balance" which results in his wages being garnished.

Neal, he had no right to sell it if he didn't use the proceeds to pay off the box. He sold the collateral for the loan but didn't pay it off. He had no right to do that...it is theft.

Tell me how it isn't?

 

[MrMark]

There have been some false assumptions here. Matco does not OWN the box. The man they sold it to OWNS the box. Matco cannot sell something and still claim they OWN it. Matco did not lease this man the box they sold it to him and OWNING is inconsistent with selling. Is MATCO liable for damages if this box rolls down a hill and kills someone? They would be if they were the OWNER.

MATCO OWNS a security interest in the property and it is not theft to damage a security interest. Hence the need for the Texas statute that makes it a crime to intentionally damage a security interest. Does your state have this statute? You can't prosecute a man for selling his own property.

And, MATCO cannot repossess this box against some third party (who may be a bona fide purchaser for value) without a judgment against this third party.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

There have been some false assumptions here. Matco does not OWN the box. The man they sold it to OWNS the box. Matco cannot sell something and still claim they OWN it. Matco did not lease this man the box they sold it to him and OWNING is inconsistent with selling. Is MATCO liable for damages if this box rolls down a hill and kills someone? They would be if they were the OWNER.

MATCO OWNS a security interest in the property and it is not theft to damage a security interest. Hence the need for the Texas statute that makes it a crime to intentionally damage a security interest. Does your state have this statute? You can't prosecute a man for selling his own property.

And, MATCO cannot repossess this box against some third party (who may be a bona fide purchaser for value) without a judgment against this third party.

Oh man....Krusty, you want to take this one?!

 

[MrMark]

I didn't say anything about "paid off" the loan. So you didn't read my post. I said what if he keeps making payments; you would probably agree as you must that no theft has been committed. But, that would still be wrong because the man has damaged the collateral, and TEXAS, at least, feels that such acts are wrong enough to make them a crime all of their own.

You didn't read my post. I said if the owner sells the box and defaults on the loan. If he's honest, he's going to take the proceeds from selling the box to pay off the loan. Matco won't care who owns it b/c the loan has been paid off.

There's someone in classifieds right now who is trying to sell his box for enough money to pay it off b/c he can't afford the payments anymore. Nothing wrong with that, as long as he pays it off. Now assuming he has that money in his hands and that little devil makes an appearance on his shoulder and talks him into using the money for something else, and he defaults on the toolbox loan, then yes, that is theft.

Theft isn't a hard concept to understand. But if you want to keep arguing 2+2 = 5, be my guest.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

Krusty can't save you '67.He's reconsidering his position

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

There's someone in classifieds right now who is trying to sell his box for enough money to pay it off b/c he can't afford the payments anymore. Nothing wrong with that, as long as he pays it off. Now assuming he has that money in his hands and that little devil makes an appearance on his shoulder and talks him into using the money for something else, and he defaults on the toolbox loan, then yes, that is theft.

Right,The seller should not sell the box if he still owes money on it,however if the unsuspecting buyer buys it in good faith then Matco should go after the the slickster that sold it,hopefully Matco made sure that the original buyer was creditworthy.

The seller above has paid $100 per week for 3 years (almost $16,000) for a $10,000 box and STILL owes $4,000. They already have a certain number of deadbeats figured into their interest rates. All of the tool companies make money selling boxes (or they wouldn't continue to sell them). I agree that the original owner is selling property that does not belong to them if the box is not paid for but, as noted above, the tool companies could make this a VERY easy process to see if a balance was owed on the box.

If they would allow you to enter the serial number/s of a box and get a simple yes/no for an answer, that would be all that is needed. If a balance is owed, you can then contact them with the sellers permission to find out the balance. If there is nothing owed on the boxes, you are free to pay the owner the money.

I know that I contacted Snap-on when I purchased my box. I gave them the guys name, phone number and the area he lived in. They said they did not have anyone with a balance given the information that I gave them. I feel that I did my due diligence on the purchase and feel OK with it but I can see that someone could go to the dealer, pledge the box he no longer owns, buy a bunch of tools and haul a$$.

They would have a hard time doing a repro on the box in that case....

 

[krusty the clown]

Oh man....Krusty, you want to take this one?!

nope........i'm done with this. we have forgotten the law of finder's keeper's, loser's weeper's. the judge will accept that right?

 

[Skyline]

As I posted earlier, Matco will happily tell you the balance on a loan if you give them the serial number, no need to get permission from the seller.

Also, they will take payment directly from the buyer....even a credit card over the phone, to pay off a box. They will then give you their blessing to take possession of the box. Obviously, you need to get the agreement of the seller, as they may have had other plans for the sale proceeds. They may also think it's within their right to sell the box and just continue making payments, which is definately NOT ok with Matco.

But there really is no gray area here when it comes to Matco. It is simple to call them with a S/N and check the status of the box. But Snap-on, MAC and Cornwell are another story. I know Snap-on will do a name search, but does anyone know what information MAC or Cornwell can provide?

 

[Flash21]

nope........i'm done with this. we have forgotten the law of finder's keeper's, loser's weeper's. the judge will accept that right?

krusty and other current / former dealers - Can you weigh in on this?

I have to believe there is a process that tool dealers use to take trade-ins on boxes that don't originate from the company they own a franchise for. Like in the case where a tech is buying a new Matco box and is trading in Snap-On box to the Matco dealer. Does the Matco dealer run a query with the UCC filing system on the techs name and refuse the deal / trade if records are found? If not, what methods do they use? Current / former dealers weigh in!

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

There have been some false assumptions here. Matco does not OWN the box. The man they sold it to OWNS the box. Matco cannot sell something and still claim they OWN it. Matco did not lease this man the box they sold it to him and OWNING is inconsistent with selling. Is MATCO liable for damages if this box rolls down a hill and kills someone? They would be if they were the OWNER.

Matco has a claim on the box until it's paid for, period.

 

[krusty the clown]

Matco has a claim on the box until it's paid for, period.

i know i said i was done..... but mr.mark is confusing MATCO tools (a wholesale distributor) with MATCO FINANCIAL (a commercial finanace company).

 

[krusty the clown]

Krusty can't save you '67.He's reconsidering his position

how is that neal?

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

i know i said i was done..... but mr.mark is confusing MATCO tools (a wholesale distributor) with MATCO FINANCIAL (a commercial finanace company).

It's tough to walk away isn't it?!

I think Mr. Mark is confusing his *** with a hole in the ground.

Methinks he's a troll as well.

 

[Hiball]

It's tough to walk away isn't it?!

I think Mr. Mark is confusing his *** with a hole in the ground.

Methinks he's a troll as well.

MrMark is not a troll, He just recently joined after searching for some Hydraulic Jack Help and has been in contact with me personally. Lets not make accusations about our members, whether there old nor new. Secondly Drop this thread... it has no longer became usefull to anyone. MODS??? I would venture to say less than 1 percent of defaulted tool boxes in the US actually get repossed from a second hand buyer account still having a lien against them.

 

[Mr_fixit]

I did. Did I get A good deal?
Maybe you can help.

I need some red crinkle paint in a spray can so I can spray it to match my Harbor freight box. And how many cans do you think I need?

 

[selohssa]

Drop this thread... it has no longer became usefull to anyone.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[krusty the clown]

Drop this thread... it has no longer became usefull to anyone.

it's still usefull.......you just have to sift through the bad info, assumptions and inaccurate comparisons

 

[krooser]

There was a tech at the old Ford truck dealer in Green bay, WI that had TWO of those bolted together back to back....

 

[Hiball]

it's still usefull.......you just have to sift through the bad info, assumptions and inaccurate comparisons

You have to agree that the number of repo's concerning secondhand buyers and Initial Purchasers has got to be Night and day. Personally Krusty have "YOU" ever went to a secondhand owners house and repo'd at box? and if you have where does that compare to how many Initial Owners boxes that have been repo'd. I have to be honest with you, if i had proof that i bought a box off a individual and someone came to my house demanding there box back we would have problems. I cant forsee the police allowing you to reposess the box regardless if you had a signed contract or not, especially if i had proof i bought the box also. I suspect it would have to be handled in court.