Who Should I get to make this?

[benjamin.eby]

Hello again all, I recently posted my triple-lock socket and I got some great advice and reviews from everyone here, if you have not yet seen it here is the link
http://triplelocksocket.com/main/page_home.html
If you read the "help us help you" section you can see I am not yet in production. I am and have been looking for a manufacturer for the parts in the USA for while. I really really want to keep this made here in the USA. This board is a wealth of knowledge- does anyone know of a manufacturer in the US that would be willing give me a quote for any of these parts? I need a cold header/forger and possibly someone who does investment casting. I already have avenues for getting it produced offshore- but I want to use that as a last resort, if I absolutly have to go offshore i will.


I have tried most of the obvious players (danaher, irwin, etc. )and some of them are in the process of putting together a quote right now. I am very interested to see how many tool companies you come up with that I have not yet found -Thanks!

 

[Hiball]

Hello again all, I recently posted my triple-lock socket and I got some great advice and reviews from everyone here, if you have not yet seen it here is the link
http://triplelocksocket.com/main/page_home.html
If you read the "help us help you" section you can see I am not yet in production. I am and have been looking for a manufacturer for the parts in the USA for while. I really really want to keep this made here in the USA. This board is a wealth of knowledge- does anyone know of a manufacturer in the US that would be willing give me a quote for any of these parts? I need a cold header/forger and possibly someone who does investment casting. I already have avenues for getting it produced offshore- but I want to use that as a last resort, if I absolutly have to go offshore i will.


I have tried most of the obvious players (danaher, irwin, etc. )and some of them are in the process of putting together a quote right now. I am very interested to see how many tool companies you come up with that I have not yet found -Thanks!

Wright Tool company has a submission form also.

 

[benjamin.eby]

Wright Tool company has a submission form also.

Wright should have a sbmission form for possible liscensing of the patents to produce it under the wright tool name, but as I recall I recieved a rejection letter, which is why I am producing it myself- would wright be interested in being my manufacturer?

 

[737mechanic]

Also Lisle tools has a program were you give them your idea and if they think it will be a success they will manufacture it. I am not sure how the entire project works. But here is the link.

Link to lisle tools idea page.

 

[Hiball]

Wright should have a sbmission form for possible liscensing of the patents to produce it under the wright tool name, but as I recall I recieved a rejection letter, which is why I am producing it myself- would wright be interested in being my manufacturer?

Yeah.. Im sorry im not affiliated with Wright with the exception that i spend alot of money on there tools. LOL

Now that i think about it, I recall there submission is for a tool design. Im not sure if they would manufacture your tool to your specs etc... Wouldnt hurt to ask though..

 

[benjamin.eby]

Also Lisle tools has a program were you give them your idea and if they think it will be a success they will manufacture it. I am not sure how the entire project works. But here is the link.

Link to lisle tools idea page.

Thanks, I did submit a request for the form, but I have done this hundreds of times- the chances of them buying my Idea are slim at best.
which again is why i am trying to produce this myself, unless the cost to produce a tool is 10% of the shelf price they will not try it, the risk is to high. Which is why I am trying to take the risk out with my "help us help you" page on the web-site.
Thanks for the info, while I know they won't buy the idea, they may be able to manufacture for me and that is what I am after.

 

[benjamin.eby]

Yeah.. Im sorry im not affiliated with Wright with the exception that i spend alot of money on there tools. LOL

Now that i think about it, I recall there submission is for a tool design. Im not sure if they would manufacture your tool to your specs etc... Wouldnt hurt to ask though..

Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were from wright tool-ha ha,
They do make a good product, but when I approaced them last time they were not so interested- there have been a lot of tools before the Triple Lock that claimed to do what it does-and failed which is why a lot of these companies just don't want to take it on, they view it as a risk. I think with the right marketing it will be huge -because I know it works. Thanks for your interest- Ben

 

[Hiball]

Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were from wright tool-ha ha,
They do make a good product, but when I approaced them last time they were not so interested- there have been a lot of tools before the Triple Lock that claimed to do what it does-and failed which is why a lot of these companies just don't want to take it on, they view it as a risk. I think with the right marketing it will be huge -because I know it works. Thanks for your interest- Ben

I think your best bet would be to find a tooling shop that can fill your needs, It will take a substantial initial investment but if you document your sales etc you may be able to find a manufacturer who would jump on board. Good Luck..

 

[benjamin.eby]

I think your best bet would be to find a tooling shop that can fill your needs, It will take a substantial initial investment but if you document your sales etc you may be able to find a manufacturer who would jump on board. Good Luck..

I actually own a tooling shop (it's for sale too!) I bought it to prototype this idea and the anailator - the trouble with making these things that way is the retail cost would be about 250$ I bill my Haas out at 50$ an hour and I have 2 hrs min in one of these- the middle peice is rather complex to machine. I need about 1000 sockets for a real first run- they aren't even made yet and thanks to GJ I have around 100 sold! (Thanks everyone who replied to "help us help you", almost 200 people! I figure if half buy one I have 100 sold) Thanks for your interest -Ben

 

[MattT]

I actually own a tooling shop (it's for sale too!) I bought it to prototype this idea and the anailator - the trouble with making these things that way is the retail cost would be about 250$ I bill my Haas out at 50$ an hour and I have 2 hrs min in one of these- the middle peice is rather complex to machine.

Does that 2 hours include setup or just machining? If it's just machining it may be too complicated to make at a realistic price. Anyways what I would do is ask some CNC equipped shops for quotes.

 

[blue dog]

Do you have a patent on this item yet. I would make sure to do that prior to sending any info on your idea out. Just saying.

 

[benjamin.eby]

Also Lisle tools has a program were you give them your idea and if they think it will be a success they will manufacture it. I am not sure how the entire project works. But here is the link.

Link to lisle tools idea page.

Thanks for the link to these guys, it looks like they actually do buy patents from individual inventors and they may be able to manufacture it for me if they don't- most places just steal them by modifying the idea enough to legally take it, like stanley and craftsman. Thanks!

What does everyone on here think of Lisle tools? do they make quality stuff? can I trust them with my design?

 

[wjohnson]

Ben,

That is at interesting design. How would the mass production process differ from how you make them in your shop now?

As far as a manufacturer: I assume you are in WI. There should be hundreds of potential suppliers in your area. I work for an automotive OEM and I know that many suppliers in this area (central OH) and in the Detroit area could make all of your parts and they are looking for work. However, you may not have the quantities they need to make production cost effective. They also may be dubious of new customers with no established billing history due to the current economic situation.

Could you get a few suppliers to make the parts and do the assembly in-house? You will realize more profit if you do at least part of the production yourself. It also may be unwise to award all of the aspects of production to one company. It would be very easy for them to steal your idea and just sell it themselves. This is especially a risk if you start looking over-seas for production. Google "ghost shifting".

What about a patent? It may be difficult to get a patent on this device since it seems to just be a different application of existing technology, which is hard to justify. Also a patent only helps you if you have the money and energy to fight anyone who infringes.

Small world, I too went to UW-Platteville, for mechanical engineering. Graduated in '07. Now I am trying to start a machine shop as well. I would like to know more about the shop you are selling.

-Wes

 

[bchee]

cool design

 

[benjamin.eby]

what ????????

 

[wjohnson]

Wes- I appreciate your interest, but you come off like a pompus ***. You just graduated college and are trying to start a business and you are trying to give me advice on how to run my business?
I own two businesses, have launched three new products and have a handfull off patents- I OWN a manufacturing facility, I know what it costs to produce these things so I know CNC is not the way to go, the shelf price would be 350$ I know the patent process very well and I have defended one in court before- the crowbar you can see the video of
most OEM automotive manufacturers you speak of are UNION shops, do you honestly think I can afford to pay those prices? my wholesale price would be $300 -Of course there are a thousand different shops in the US that can make it, I need one that can make it for a competitive price.
The fact that you don't see a difference between how I am making them now and how they would be massed produced is a glowing example of why I am glad I left college when I did. To mass produce these they will probably be investment cast, cold headed, and forged parts. which means I can turn out 10,000 complete units in a week not 2 months. CNC is great for prototyping and short or temporary runs but not mass production -unless the tolerances and price support it -hand tools don't

Don't get me wrong everyone else on here, I appreciate the advice you give me, but I don't want business advice from wet-behind the ears college kids. If you are further along in the game than I am by all means I would love to hear your biz ideas. otherwise I want tool advice from people who use them everyday and know what my customer is going to want my tools to do. This board is great for that, you guys really know your stuff on tools and let me know details I may miss. I would rather talk to a 20 year mechanic who dropped out of high school than a recent college grad about what is a good tool. I usually don't get like this on boards but this really ticked me off- I think this pompus know-it-all attitude is a big problem with kids now.

-Ben

I'm not going to argue with you. It seems that you came here for validation, not information. Or you want a miracle that will make your widget cost effective.

Also, only about 2/3 of auto workers are UAW. We work with both. It will not have an appreciable impact on cost.

Good Luck!


- Wet behind the ears college kid

 

[terrancelee]

Wes- I appreciate your interest, but you come off like a pompus ***.

{snip}

I think this pompus know-it-all attitude is a big problem with kids now.

-Ben

Actually, it is you, who is coming across as a pompus *** with this reply. Nowhere in Wes' reply did I see any disparaging remarks, only honest questions and such. What even makes you think Wes is a wet, behind the ears college kid anyway? Who say's he's not a 50 year old, third major scholar.

Whatever interest I had in your products went out the window with your reply.

 

[benjamin.eby]

You know, you're right. I appologise for what it is worth Wes.
I have just gotten very frustrated over the last four years trying to get this made in the US. I get bombarded daily by people telling me "what you should do is......" The truth is I have looked into many avenues here in the states and they keep leading to dead ends. I was hoping maybe someone on here knew of a tool company that used automation differently or a new technology for manufacture or something that would help me get what I am looking for in a manufacturer and make the price points line up to where I can make it for a price people will buy it for- which seems to be around 35ish dollars. Which is easy to do-but only if I get it made offshore and I really don't want to do that.


I have taken that post down as I went off before thinking about it. Sorry, I did not join this board to insult people. I know you were just trying to help.
-Ben

 

[wafrederick]

Contact Matco and they will pay you for any ideas.

 

[benjamin.eby]

Matco is a divison of Danaher, I contacted Danaher about 6-months ago. They do have a good program for idea submittal, but in the end they decided not to proceed forward with a royalty agreement. Which is kinda what I was expecting. The larger companies go strictly by the numbers what the tool is and does has little effect on thier yes or no they won't take the risk unless there is a really large markup on it to take out some of risk out. They usually are more apt to give royalties on specialty tools because of the mark-up. If they can make a stamped-steel product for $2 and sell it for $49 they are making 47$ per tool, and if the tooling to make it costs 10 grand they only have to sell a little over 200 to break-even everything after that is profit and it is very easy to sell 200 of almost anything nationally. that is an over-simplified explaination, but you get the idea.- This is also why some tools, which don't work very well, stay on the market-because the numbers line up, I am sure you can think of a few.

The problem I am up against is there is little room for markup- typically if you make a product for 5$ it is wholesaled for 10$ and put on the shelf between 20$ and 30$. which means for my socket, I have to get it made for under 20$-which I can, --I can have them delivered to my door,in packaging for less than 15$- from china.

Danaher is working on quotes for manufacture for me right now- I am hoping with enough volume I can get the price I want and get them made here. I did also submit my patent to Lisle Tools per suggested here- they actually look the most promising of any of the companies I submitted to as they have more than 100 people they are paying royalties to we'll see what happens -Ben

 

[Sick Puppy]

Keep on going, good luck and let us know what happens. Between this and the Annailator, you've created a fair amount of interest!

 

[rodm1]

To me it seams like its to close to Snap-On's stud extractor. They can easily mod there tool to work under similar applications.

As you seed the only way it will work is to redesign it sow you can bang it out in a progressive form (little handling with humans). If you look at lots of US manufactured goods they are mass produced with the assembly from China or Mexico (PVC unions).

Best of luck!

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...&group_ID=1247&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

 

[benjamin.eby]

The stud remover does work on the same principal, in fact it looks a lot like the R8 collet that was my inspiration, There are about 21 claims in the patent that differentiate it though- you are the first person to make the connection to a collet though, most people see it as a drill chuck- which works on a different principal. I have a few companies people have suggested that I am looking into, I may only have to have one peice outsourced- the outer socket, it appears as though it may be possible to make the rest of the internals here, and those are the parts that take the most stress. I'll keep posting on here when I find a way- but It will be at least mostly made here

 

[benjamin.eby]

I just had a thought, my socket is no more complex than a drill chuck- aren't those made in here in the US? if they can make a cost effective chuck here it is at least concievable that I can make my socket here

 

[WheelsNT]

...a patent only helps you if you have the money and energy to fight anyone who infringes.

This is a common misconception -- in most cases the greatest benefit of a patent is that it protects *your* right to make and sell what you created.

 

[Underdog]

This is a common misconception -- in most cases the greatest benefit of a patent is that it protects *your* right to make and sell what you created.

Thats true but if its a winner then you can bet it will also get made offshore in the knockoff market and be imported. I don't know the answer, maybe great marketing and brand awareness?

 

[Jononon]

I just had a thought, my socket is no more complex than a drill chuck- aren't those made in here in the US?

They are, but not at $35. 'Prosumer' Jacobs and Accupro chucks are Chinese, Rohm Brazilian.

An unpopular view in this crowd, I'm sure, but wouldn't it be better to have your product hit the shelves with a 'Made in China' sticker than not at all?

 

[benjamin.eby]

They are, but not at $35. 'Prosumer' Jacobs and Accupro chucks are Chinese, Rohm Brazilian.

An unpopular view in this crowd, I'm sure, but wouldn't it be better to have your product hit the shelves with a 'Made in China' sticker than not at all?

Yes you are right and that may be the way it has to be unfortunatly

 

[benjamin.eby]

Thats true but if its a winner then you can bet it will also get made offshore in the knockoff market and be imported. I don't know the answer, maybe great marketing and brand awareness?

Yes you are absolutly right, the key is to establish yourself early as the highest quality whatever it is right away, with brand recognition. A good example would be the Vise-Grip locking pliers.
that patent ran out years ago and everyone is ripping off the technology everywhere, but Vise-Grip still makes one of the best versions of the locking plier you can buy so they keep selling even though the knock offs are cheaper. This is one of the main reasons why marketing is so important when you launch a product- it is also why I want it made here, because then I will have that quality

 

[Mike 47]

in most cases the greatest benefit of a patent is that it protects *your* right to make and sell what you created.

[tangent]
Actually that's incorrect. A patent gives you the right to exclude others from making, selling, or using what's protected by the patent. It doesn't necessarily give you (the patent owner) a right to practice the invention.
[/tangent]

 

[benjamin.eby]

This is a common misconception -- in most cases the greatest benefit of a patent is that it protects *your* right to make and sell what you created.

I think both statements are true, but in the tool industry nobody is going to launch a multi-million dollar plus- legal suit to defend an idea they stole, when they can buy from me for less than half the legal costs. The truth is the profit margin is just not there in the production. But in say the medical field where the majority of the cost is in research, it can be worth stealing an idea because often the research costs more to do than the legal work to steal it.
The great thing about patents if you have one and you have a really good attorney to put it in, is that some patent attorneys (like mine) will take a case on for free until it is won because the damage is retro-active. So if a large tool company stole my idea and made 100 million dollars on it, not only would a large chunk of that money be mine- but they just proved the market for my idea which makes it very easy to then liscense the patent and make even more money.
In many ways the easiest way to get this on the market would be if someone stole it- which is why tool patents rarely are

 

[benjamin.eby]

[tangent]
Actually that's incorrect. A patent gives you the right to exclude others from making, selling, or using what's protected by the patent. It doesn't necessarily give you (the patent owner) a right to practice the invention.
[/tangent]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying the difference is?

 

[Sick Puppy]

This is a common misconception -- in most cases the greatest benefit of a patent is that it protects *your* right to make and sell what you created.

[tangent]
Actually that's incorrect. A patent gives you the right to exclude others from making, selling, or using what's protected by the patent. It doesn't necessarily give you (the patent owner) a right to practice the invention.
[/tangent]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying the difference is?

I think the difference Mike 47 (and Mike 47, forgive me if I've misread this) is stating draws upon his first sentence rather than the second- WheelsNT is by Mike's statement limiting the inventor to making & producing it himself but doesn't limit others doing the same, as opposed to Mikes definition, where it is inferred that you alone can produce it, license others to produce it, or do nothing with it, but because you are the inventor you get to decide.

As for the second sentence, I've no idea!

 

[Weedwaka]

Get these on the snap-on truck. If they work, they will sell like crazy. I will buy one

 

[lwlobo]

What about the new SK plant, or the old one? I don't know if either is running currently, but they may be looking for work for old equipment and operators or new equipment and operators. They're probably mainly interested in getting the new SK tools into production, though.

I like your design, Ben, and understand your frustration. It won't be easy (read Dyson's book!), but you could end up doing really well. Be careful who you partner with. My Great Grandpa invented the first gear pull (I can probably post a copy of the original patent sometime, if anyone is interested), but never made a dime off of it.

Also, pardon me for saying this, but it may serve you well to show more respect to degreed engineers. Sure, some of them (us?) lack mechanical aptitude and an understanding of the real world. But most of the technical decisions regarding products and manufacturing are made by people with engineering degrees. Showing respect for their decision to finish college may be wise. I've taken a different career tact than you so far (less risky), but I admire and respect what you're trying to do.

Good luck, and I'll be signing up to buy one of the tools.

 

[mrholeshot]

Get the offshore company to build it in a quality manner. US tool makers are too busy shooting themselves in the foot to get involved. There are places offshore that can build it just as well for way less money and more important can get it done.