rarebreed
Well-known member
Looking for advice on a good Whole Home Generator. Will likely be connecting it to the natural gas currently at the home.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Whole Home Generator
- Thread starter rarebreed
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Kohler
Do a search -- there are many threads with lots of information.
My last was a Cummins ... I mention only because there are many possible solutions .. and you will see many types used and recommendations
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
There must be 10+ generator threads on this forum...
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
We have a Kohler, had problems with the control board at 141 hours and had it replaced, they said it was a "known problem" with the units, so after some wrangling they did so under warranty... but they also said that until people had problems with htem, they could run the ones they had...
It's the only issue I had with Kohler, which seemed, for an emergency backup, kinda flakey... but since then it has a few thousand on the new unit with nary a hiccup.
It's the only issue I had with Kohler, which seemed, for an emergency backup, kinda flakey... but since then it has a few thousand on the new unit with nary a hiccup.
Miss the Pontiacs
Well-known member
My wife is after me to go this route as well. I have only seen adds for the Generac and it would have to be NG fueled.
I looked for generator threads but did not get to look through them all. We just had a bad storm here overnight but did not lose power this time. I am sure it will eventually so I am researching now for the best option. I agree with Miss the Pontiacs, where all I see is mostly Generac. I will have to do some more shopping around.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
RareBreed
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
RareBreed
ezridr60
Well-known member
Had a generac guardian, a 14KW. Unit ran fine for the 5 years we owned the property. I did have issues with generac support. We had the mobile link, a cellular connection device that was supposed to monitor the generator performance via a web site. It would send out an email or SMS text whenever the unit fired up for a power failure, or when it ran once a week for self programmed testing. The original literature promised several features that never got implemented. It did show battery condition, needed maintenance, and if the unit was running. What was supposed to be there, and never happened, was generator voltage, and Hertz. These last two were important. We lived part time 300 miles away, so if we got a message there was a power failure, and the unit was running, you really had no idea if the generator was suppling power, only that it was running. The original software had indications for these two important parameters, but were never activated. Later software versions eliminated the features entirely. Early on tech support was continually promising, yeah it’s coming, please be patient. We also had connect problems with the mobile link setup. It originally worked fine, then one day, nada. They blamed poor cell reception. Though I could stand next to the unit with my cell, same provider, and make calls all day long. Months later it starts working again. My take, problem was on their end. We also had to upgrade the gas meter. Make sure yours has adequate capacity for all intended NG appliances.
greenskeeper
Well-known member
I run my house on a 6kw generator when the power fails. It's enough to run everything but the HVAC. I don't use a transfer switch, rather I turn off the main breaker inside the house and backfeed power from my detached garage by connecting the generator to a 30 amp inlet. Generator is inside the detached garage so no chance of theft and minimal noise for myself and the neighbors.
portable generators are much cheaper than whole house units...I guess it depends on how often you lose power. For me it's not that often.
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dcg9381
Well-known member
Generac seems to be most common. My take on the reviews is that they really don't want them to be "consumer installed" - and doing so may not make the warranty particularly useful without some trouble.
Costco currently carries a generac 20k or 22k that would take some worry out of the warranty issue for me as a self-installed deal.
Propane/Natural gas seems the way to go also.
And certainly you can get portable (wheeled) units with a generator interlock that could at least do some of the load. But a "whole house" unit could be auto-magic....
Costco currently carries a generac 20k or 22k that would take some worry out of the warranty issue for me as a self-installed deal.
Propane/Natural gas seems the way to go also.
And certainly you can get portable (wheeled) units with a generator interlock that could at least do some of the load. But a "whole house" unit could be auto-magic....
Coming from Hurricane Central in Florida, we had the need for a generator many times. I have an older 5600 Wacker gas generator that would help run Fridge, lights, etc but obviously it can't automagically start up. Since we have lived in the upper part of South Carolina we have had issues with power outages when storm season is here, we are now considering one to service the whole house. The biggest concern is when the power goes out when we are at work and a portable unit cannot be connected.
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mark-NJ
Well-known member
Full disclosure: I'm an engineering project manager in the generator business, albeit on larger systems, not residential systems. Here's my take on the smaller systems:
These small air-cooled units...all of them...run hot, and break down their oil rapidly. The single most important thing to buy is the service agreement, and be sure you're buying from someone who can support that agreement.
Generac's product is no better or worse than anyone else's...but they seem to be the dominant player in the residential game. Notice that there's a "Certified Generac Installer" sticker on every electrician's truck you see. DO NOT buy from some small electrical contractor...he's NOT coming out to your home at 3AM when your unit fails to start. You're far better off buying from a large HVAC company or material handling company, etc. that will be there what you need them. A company with a fleet of techs and a 24 hour phone number. And ask them "what level of spare parts do you stock locally?".
The key is the service you'll get, not the hardware being installed.
These small air-cooled units...all of them...run hot, and break down their oil rapidly. The single most important thing to buy is the service agreement, and be sure you're buying from someone who can support that agreement.
Generac's product is no better or worse than anyone else's...but they seem to be the dominant player in the residential game. Notice that there's a "Certified Generac Installer" sticker on every electrician's truck you see. DO NOT buy from some small electrical contractor...he's NOT coming out to your home at 3AM when your unit fails to start. You're far better off buying from a large HVAC company or material handling company, etc. that will be there what you need them. A company with a fleet of techs and a 24 hour phone number. And ask them "what level of spare parts do you stock locally?".
The key is the service you'll get, not the hardware being installed.
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3rdgen
Well-known member
I'm an electrical contractor who installs a fair amount of standby generators. Generac is the go to for most people and are fine if you maintain them. Also don't expect to get anywhere with Generac themselves. It may be different in the states but in Canada they wont even talk to me or the homeowner since I'm not a certified installer. So if you do get a Generac make sure its a certified installer who will show up and have the parts you need like Mark-NJ said because I cant even get them to give me the software update even though we install about 10 a year.
mark-NJ
Well-known member
I should add: do not skimp on the transfer switch. Pay for a good one...ASCO, Eaton, ABB. Do not buy a Generac switch.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
First thing is to figure out what size generator will be required for your application Then, figure out if your existing natural gas service can handle the additional requirements of the generator.
There are a lot of brands in the residential generator market - Generac and Kohler are probably most common, but that may be more because of their marketing than anything else. Another quality brand to consider is Cummins/Onan.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
At the risk of sidetracking this discussion, absolutely don't do this.
There is not much in the way of maintenance -- they have oil and a filter. Keep it clean ... check and maintain the battery.
Generac is the big player in the homeowner area and they have an extensive network. As the market has matured --more and more items have become specific to the various units. It's hard for a manufacturer to limit parts to authorized dealers when they bought the part from another supplier and it's used on other generators from other makers. Generac was always viewed as a marketing driven company -- decent stuff -- nothing special. Most of the big players did not get into the consumer market .... Generac had a lot of the market to themselves. People would see them in the big box stores. There was a lot of rebranding and common use parts in the market. Years ago a common unit used at the beach was B&S -- never liking the engines .... I upgraded to the Kohler. I'm not sure there was anything different inside except the engine. People wanting a better engine -- bought the Kohler.
When I was doing the spec for my new build -- Cummins had just done a full redesign of the consumer unit and it fit what i wanted to do. There were also no "must be installed by a Cummins dealer" . The tech support was very friendly and I had no problem signing up for the extended free warranty they offered. Things are always changing -- programs end ... companies change policies. Also -- it's an industry upgrading all the time --- 5 years ago the load control was very basic ... now that it's needed in the market all the makers have upgraded and made it easy and affordable.
I have heard the Generac has become difficult and you have to be a dealer or servicer to get parts. Gernerac makes a common cable that is designed to be used for easy wiring. It's not allowed in my town -- but you can set up the simple systems with one conduit .... it's less expensive that way
Generac is the big player in the homeowner area and they have an extensive network. As the market has matured --more and more items have become specific to the various units. It's hard for a manufacturer to limit parts to authorized dealers when they bought the part from another supplier and it's used on other generators from other makers. Generac was always viewed as a marketing driven company -- decent stuff -- nothing special. Most of the big players did not get into the consumer market .... Generac had a lot of the market to themselves. People would see them in the big box stores. There was a lot of rebranding and common use parts in the market. Years ago a common unit used at the beach was B&S -- never liking the engines .... I upgraded to the Kohler. I'm not sure there was anything different inside except the engine. People wanting a better engine -- bought the Kohler.
When I was doing the spec for my new build -- Cummins had just done a full redesign of the consumer unit and it fit what i wanted to do. There were also no "must be installed by a Cummins dealer" . The tech support was very friendly and I had no problem signing up for the extended free warranty they offered. Things are always changing -- programs end ... companies change policies. Also -- it's an industry upgrading all the time --- 5 years ago the load control was very basic ... now that it's needed in the market all the makers have upgraded and made it easy and affordable.
I have heard the Generac has become difficult and you have to be a dealer or servicer to get parts. Gernerac makes a common cable that is designed to be used for easy wiring. It's not allowed in my town -- but you can set up the simple systems with one conduit .... it's less expensive that way
mjeff87
Well-known member
Generac 20K here, going on about 9 years now. NG powered, gas company had to install a larger (commercial) meter on my house to feed it, no charge to me. Have a load calculation done to figure the size you will need. In my case, 18K would have been "ok" for me, but the price difference between an 18 and a 20K was nominal, and at the time (not sure if they still do today) Generac was throwing in a free new 200A service panel with a built-in transfer switch if you purchased a 20K or larger unit, so I stepped up to 20. I was purchasing an annual service plan from the installer for the first 7 or so years, they would come out annually and change oil/filters/plugs and verify output but every year they kept upping the price little by little. Then "changing" the plugs went to "inspecting" them....it finally got to be too much $$$ for me to want to pay for basic maintenance, plus Generac only has a 5 year warranty and I was out of that, so I've been doing my own maintenance on it every year. Knock on wood, I've never had a single issue with it to date, and has more than paid for itself IMO.
dcg9381
Well-known member
Specify. Seems like the branded switches (perhaps) support functions easier? What's a good one? Recommend...
I've read of lots of people unhappy with both Generac and Kohler, but I don't think I've read about a single branded-ATS failure...
dcg9381
Well-known member
A quick search indicates that an annual "maintenance" agreement runs between $150-$200/year. And is basically "change the oil" once per year.
I agree that anything air cooled runs hot, especially where I am - and that's hard on oil. That being said, oil technology has come a really long way in the last 20 years. Why not break it in, throw some synthetic in it? Darn stuff does great in turbo motors where things really cook... Literally. Most of us can manage an oil change in an air cooled motor...
I see common failures in these things being controller, electronics, and motor accessories.....
greenskeeper
Well-known member
Nothing wrong with this setup since the main breaker going out to the street is disconnected. Almost 20 years with this setup when the power occasionally goes out. I do understand that a transfer switch is the "proper" setup.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Actually there is a lot wrong with it.
And doing so is a good way to get your service drop cut by a lineman.
DONT DO THAT.
greenskeeper
Well-known member
Main disconnect is locked out with key on the same key ring as the generator.
The backfeed circuit is balanced between both 120v sides of the panel for the circuits I use during an outage. Those circuits are colored coded to be on during an outage, all others are off.
The pigtail from the generator to the garage sub panel is a twist lock with female
ends so even if it comes out it doesn’t have energized pins.
All thats missing is a transfer switch which I already acknowledged.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Post a picture of what you have
Dick in Wisconsin
Well-known member
What Greenskeeper does is:
1. Illegal in most if not ALL jurisdictions.
2. Dangerous. If the main switch isn't disconnected when the generator is started or is turned on while the generator is running the electricity working on the downed power line could be KILLED.
3. Its stupid.
If Greenskeeper wants to continue down this path there is little that can be done to stop him. The post that mentioned a lineman cutting his service line to the house is true. My next door neighbor was a career lineman and told me he cut a number of lines when he'd hear a generator, went to investigate, and found a back feed situation he'd immediate disconnect the house from the main line. Backfeeders were that last houses that got reconnected ... usually after a visit from POCO management.
Do it right and get a good transfer switch.
That said ... an electrician/electrical contractor that I use is a Generac "authorized installer". They have many, many Generac installations throughout northern Wisconsin. They could sell any generator out there, but when I asked they feel that Generac is the best. A big part of their business is work of mouth from the second home culture.
When I had NG hydronic heat installed in the race shop, I had to have the gas meter and NG line from one end of the house to the other "upsized". Gas company did the gas meter for no cost, plumber did the gas line in the house. I'd expect that a NG generator would need a pretty good sized line.
We have a 20KW Kohler diesel generator in the motorhome. Uses the three cylinder, turbocharged Yanmar (marine?) engine. Apparently the same engine that Martin and PowerTech uses. We bought the motorhome 16 years old. I'm told by other motorhome guys and by Mr. Martin that with regular oil/filter changes these things will run for 20,000 to 40,000 hours.
A NG powered generator should last forever with proper maintenance. NG is much cleaner than gasoline or diesel fuel. If you can afford it and need it regularly, get a good one!
greenskeeper
Well-known member
My whole estate or something specific?
greenskeeper
Well-known member
1) Lots of things are Illegal...Do you follow all the rules?
2) It's practically impossible with my setup to start the generator without locking out my house from the power grid. The generator key is on the same key ring as the lockout for the main disconnect which is hung at the main panel in the house. I can't start the generator without that key. I also can't unlock the main disconnect if the key is in the generator.
3) thanks for your opinion
FWIW lineman have a truly thankless job
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the entire main service panel as well as close ups of the main breaker and lock setup on your panel as well as the generator breaker in the panel.
False equivalency.
Doing something that is illegal that doesnt have the potential to injure or kill someone is not the same as doing something that is illegal AND has the potential to injure or kill someone.
Practically impossible does not = impossible.
Whats to prevent you or someone else from leaving the main disconnect closed and just starting the generator?
Your scheme is totally flawed and illogical if the generator breaker and main disconnect can be in the closed position at the same time regardless of what device the key is in. Having keys that can only be used on 1 device at a time does not guarantee that the generator breaker CANNOT be closed at the same time as the main disconnect can be closed.
Why not get an interlock? This prevents the main disconnect from being closed while the generator breaker is closed? Are you too much of a cheapskate to do it right?
It's disgusting that someone is too cheap and/or selfish to care about someone else's life.
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Stuart in MN
Well-known member
It's one thing to do something that's against code or against regulations, it's another to recommend it to others. We can't stop you, but there are a number of us who post here who are licensed electricians or engineers, and ethically we have to call it out.
mark-NJ
Well-known member
^^^^
This. Completely.
This. Completely.
Chilliwack Murray
Well-known member
While I agree that a proper interlock or transfer switch should be used, the system he is trying to create may actually be acceptable (and legal) with some modifications. It’s called al Kirk key system and is commonly used where the two source breakers are not physically close enough for a simple interlock bar or cable.
The first and foremost requirement is that there can be only one key which is held captive in the breaker that is in the on position and that same key is required to turn on the breaker for the other source. With this system it is only possible to close the one of the two sources.
The second requirement is approval from the electrical utility for any setup that is not commercially available and certified. This would usually require a permit, special application and inspection and often an engineer’s sign off which would probably cover the cost of a transfer switch.
There are some brands of distribution panels with interlocking breakers for this purpose if you want swap out the panel.
A manual transfer switches can be installed after the main disconnect and are only a few hundred dollars if you buy a 100A commercial 600V rated 3 pole instead of a 240V 2 pole. Apart from saving about 40% the 600V is a snap action switch instead of just a knife switch that most 240V models are.
All that said there are people who do this and worse every day. I’ve been in HD in the middle of a storm watching the store staff help people pick out parts to make suicide cords.
This guy at least gave it some thought.
The first and foremost requirement is that there can be only one key which is held captive in the breaker that is in the on position and that same key is required to turn on the breaker for the other source. With this system it is only possible to close the one of the two sources.
The second requirement is approval from the electrical utility for any setup that is not commercially available and certified. This would usually require a permit, special application and inspection and often an engineer’s sign off which would probably cover the cost of a transfer switch.
There are some brands of distribution panels with interlocking breakers for this purpose if you want swap out the panel.
A manual transfer switches can be installed after the main disconnect and are only a few hundred dollars if you buy a 100A commercial 600V rated 3 pole instead of a 240V 2 pole. Apart from saving about 40% the 600V is a snap action switch instead of just a knife switch that most 240V models are.
All that said there are people who do this and worse every day. I’ve been in HD in the middle of a storm watching the store staff help people pick out parts to make suicide cords.
This guy at least gave it some thought.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Segue - My buddy recently had a whole home generator installed (got tired of hauling out the portable).
Whole home generators must be sized for the maximum load of the residence or at least have an automatic transfer switch that does load shedding. Typically the load(s) that are shed are the A/C, electric water heater, electric dryer, electric range (probably not all of them).
If you A/C or water heater runs off of a separate meter (for discount billing) it will NOT get power as the generator will only feed one panel/connection. Have you installer add a manual transfer switch between this second meter and the load. You may save a couple of bucks by not having to purchase the load shedding automatic transfer switch.
Whole home generators must be sized for the maximum load of the residence or at least have an automatic transfer switch that does load shedding. Typically the load(s) that are shed are the A/C, electric water heater, electric dryer, electric range (probably not all of them).
If you A/C or water heater runs off of a separate meter (for discount billing) it will NOT get power as the generator will only feed one panel/connection. Have you installer add a manual transfer switch between this second meter and the load. You may save a couple of bucks by not having to purchase the load shedding automatic transfer switch.
firebirdparts
Well-known member
If you don't have A/C, there wouldn't be much point of a whole house generator. My opinion. I would love to have one that's fabulously trouble free, but of course you see the problem. Lots of tradeoffs. Maybe someday. The generac seems to me amazingly affordable for what it is, and of course affordability has consequences.
Worsedog
Well-known member
greenskeeper
Well-known member
Geez not this again. DO NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE
Main disconnect is locked out with key on the same key ring as the generator.
The backfeed circuit is balanced between both 120v sides of the panel for the circuits I use during an outage. Those circuits are colored coded to be on during an outage, all others are off.
The pigtail from the generator to the garage sub panel is a twist lock with female
ends so even if it comes out it doesn’t have energized pins.
All thats missing is a transfer switch which I already acknowledged.
Worsedog
Well-known member
Yes it works, it's still illegal in most areas, and it's dangerous. Just don't do it. Do it correctly or sit in the dark!
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Take your dangerous **** elsewhere. Like a DIY forum where they dont care..
Terry D
Well-known member
We are not saying that it doesn't work, obviously it does. That's the crazy thing about electric, you can do it wrong and a lot of times it will work. It will work until someone gets hurt. This is a safety thing. Without having interlocks or a transfer switch, there is a chance for human error with this setup. All it will take is one time, maybe one time your not there to set it up, and someone can get seriously hurt or worst yet, die
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
There's the key phrase. It's kind of like when people take the guard off their angle grinder...it works just fine, right up until the point where it doesn't.