Whole House Electrical Retrofit!

[bczygan]

I should probably go about this by asking questions in ones and twos, so you don't get overwhelmed, but here goes anyway.

This will be a big project, so instead of giving me all the answers, feel free to pick out just a couple of questions to answer.

This house built in the early 40's is long due for an electrical upgrade.

Service is overhead anchored to the brick second story wall.

The service entrance cable has the wire that spirals around it exposed, with an original meter box and a smart meter.

Inside, there are 2 boxes being fed. One is the original fuse box with 2 30A main fuses.

A newer box contains a 40A and a 30A breaker (No main) serving a previous electric dryer and range. All that is gas now.

I call the fuse box "Old Sparky" because it does. It is rusty from water entering it over the years.
The contacts for the fuses are all blackened as well as the contact points on the fuses themselves.
Some of the fuses are removed because there has been arcing in the panel behind them.
One fuse has been removed from the panel because the conductor going from it up the outside wall cavity smokes where it goes through the sill plate when energized.

The house wiring is very minimal and the old cloth covered type with no ground.

I have had several outlets go bad.

It seems time to really redo the electrical system.

So, what I propose is that the entire electrical system be replaced and upgraded from the overhead drop.

So follow me as I go through this in my mind.

Luckily they just upgraded the POCO's system and I got a triplex drop capable of 200A. They also gave me some slack in it.
I plan to take full advantage of that with new service entrance cable in plastic conduit into a new 200A meter box that I also have. One decision to make is about how to tie in the drop. I have a very small overhang (1 1/2") but would like to build it out to a little more, say 3". I would like to raise the drop and use an actual weather-head. This will raise the drop above a tall outbuilding I am planning. Can I jog the PVC to clear the small overhang? How do I fasten that PVC that has the weather-head a couple of feet above the roof, to take the strain of the overhead drop?
I know about fastening the PVC conduit to the brick, sizing the service entrance cable, using split bolts and friction tape at the drop, using an expansion section on the PVC coming down the wall, mounting the box and using that clay material to seal holes. Also I will install 2 ground rods 6' apart with a continuous #6 solid copper ground wire.
I plan that this new entrance be put next to the existing one so service can continue until the system installation is complete.

Next is the main panel. I don't want to mount it on the outside wall like the existing panel. The reason I am packing out and extending the overhang is to avoid the water that is getting into the wall, but would also like the panel on an inside wall a couple of feet inside. I would run the PVC conduit all the way to the box. BTW, can I run the 4/0 4/0 4/0 in 2"?

So I have a new 200A QO panel for a main. It's the old type non-plug-on 30 space 40 circuit value pack. It will be surface mounted on 3/4" plywood with enough space for other electrical stuff.

Part of my problem is I want to get the circuits that aren't working right now, working. So I plan to have the panel installed first and run off that panel with the 30a and 40A breakers. I also want to get the old fuse box decommissioned ASAP. So I'm thinking of a temporary box to replace it so there's a place to make junctions to all the old circuits until the circuit wiring can be replaced.

There will also be added wiring and outlets throughout the house and a new sub-panel for the garage.

Ideas and suggestions?

Photos soon.


Bill

 

[Bert_]

Why does the riser need to go above the roof on a 2 story house? If you want it above the roof heavy wall metal conduit is what you need, not PVC.

Panel needs to be nearest the point of entrance unless you put a main breaker outside.

You shouldn't be making any connections to the overhead drop.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Part of my problem is I want to get the circuits that aren't working right now, working. So I plan to have the panel installed first and run off that panel with the 30a and 40A breakers. I also want to get the old fuse box decommissioned ASAP. So I'm thinking of a temporary box to replace it so there's a place to make junctions to all the old circuits until the circuit wiring can be replaced.

I'd route the two fused circuits to the old breaker box for short-term power, and leave the new panel cold for all of the work you want to do. You said no main, so how do you disconnect power to the fusebox and old breaker box? Is the old breaker box new enough that you can get some 20A breakers in it?

 

[driftpin]

I am not an electrician. My wife is an E.E., I didn't consult her.

The sooner you can eliminate your dangerous conditions, the better-off you will be. If that means switching to a temporary box, do it, have it done.

Having a main disconnect outside and another at your branch circuit panel may-be what you need to do.

Are you planning to replace your branch circuits? Sounds like it. That means breaking into your walls, and I bet you have plaster walls from the age of the house. Are you going to replace the BX, which is what I assume you have, with armored cable? That would be much-easier than running EMT or non-metallic PVC conduit.

 

[bczygan]

Why does the riser need to go above the roof on a 2 story house? If you want it above the roof heavy wall metal conduit is what you need, not PVC.

Panel needs to be nearest the point of entrance unless you put a main breaker outside.

You shouldn't be making any connections to the overhead drop.

Bert,

I do want to go above the roof so I have more clearance above a tall outbuilding that the drop crosses above. Does the metal conduit need to be grounded or does it ground through attachment to the meter box?

I won't be making connections to the drop.

Bill

 

[Bert_]

Bert,

I do want to go above the roof so I have more clearance above a tall outbuilding that the drop crosses above. Does the metal conduit need to be grounded or does it ground through attachment to the meter box?

I won't be making connections to the drop.

Bill

A metal riser grounds through the meter hub. Look for IMC or RMC threaded conduit. Emt, just like PVC, is not strong enough to support the drop. A clamp on weather head will eliminate the need to thread any pipe. The pipe will be strong enough to go several feet above the roof without any additional support.

If you only need an 1 1/2" of space a small piece of unistrut would work well. Could be painted a dark color to blend in. If you need more than that you would be better off getting an offset bent in the pipe

 

[bczygan]

I'd route the two fused circuits to the old breaker box for short-term power, and leave the new panel cold for all of the work you want to do. You said no main, so how do you disconnect power to the fusebox and old breaker box? Is the old breaker box new enough that you can get some 20A breakers in it?

Anton,

Maybe photos will help. The panel with the fuses is the main panel and the one I want to cut out ASAP.

The "newer" panel with the 2 breakers is what I want to use temporarily as the feed to the new 200A main panel.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

A metal riser grounds through the meter hub. Look for IMC or RMC threaded conduit. Emt, just like PVC, is not strong enough to support the drop. A clamp on weather head will eliminate the need to thread any pipe. The pipe will be strong enough to go several feet above the roof without any additional support.

If you only need an 1 1/2" of space a small piece of unistrut would work well. Could be painted a dark color to blend in. If you need more than that you would be better off getting an offset bent in the pipe

Thank you Bert!

You solved all my service entrance problems.

Bill

 

[Bert_]

Anton,

Maybe photos will help. The panel with the fuses is the main panel and the one I want to cut out ASAP.

The "newer" panel with the 2 breakers is what I want to use temporarily as the feed to the new 200A main panel.

Bill

Obviously this wall sees a fair amount of moisture. I would suggest attaching a couple treated 2x's to the wall and then 3/4 plywood on top of that. This will give you a good dry place for the electrical equipment.

Get the new panel installed and energized. Just run a piece of 10-3 on a 30a breaker and feed the existing panel until you get the existing circuits replace.

 

[bczygan]

I'd route the two fused circuits to the old breaker box for short-term power, and leave the new panel cold for all of the work you want to do. You said no main, so how do you disconnect power to the fusebox and old breaker box? Is the old breaker box new enough that you can get some 20A breakers in it?

The fuse panel is the old main service that needs immediate removal, but it has all the active circuits. So the plan is to first hang the new 200A panel and feed it from the existing 2 breaker panel. I could remove the 2 breakers and just use the panel as a junction box. That gives me a panel for new circuits. Meanwhile, I need to remove the fuse panel, In it's place I could put any 8 space panel to connect the existing circuits to. It would be fed from the new 200A panel.
After the outside entrance work is done I could connect it to the new main 200A panel and service drop. Finally, replace each existing circuit and run them to the new box and remove the temporary panel.

Workable plan?

I am not an electrician. My wife is an E.E., I didn't consult her.

The sooner you can eliminate your dangerous conditions, the better-off you will be. If that means switching to a temporary box, do it, have it done.

Having a main disconnect outside and another at your branch circuit panel may-be what you need to do.

Are you planning to replace your branch circuits? Sounds like it. That means breaking into your walls, and I bet you have plaster walls from the age of the house. Are you going to replace the BX, which is what I assume you have, with armored cable? That would be much-easier than running EMT or non-metallic PVC conduit.

Yes, I plan on completely rewiring the house. Walls are a thick plaster board with a skim coat. Circuit wiring is cloth covered and no ground wiring. Going to fish new Romex.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

Obviously this wall sees a fair amount of moisture. I would suggest attaching a couple treated 2x's to the wall and then 3/4 plywood on top of that. This will give you a good dry place for the electrical equipment.

Yes.

Bill

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Oh thats nasty! Major potential for shock.

The neutral in that breaker panel is corroded and not isolated.

And you dont have an EGC.

So anyone touching that panel and touching something else that is grounded could get shocked.

I would set new meter main or meter and disconnect asap. Temp feed these 2 junk panels, then set a subpanel, connect to main with 4-wire feeder, then extend the existing circuits.

 

[bczygan]

Oh thats nasty! Major potential for shock.

The neutral in that breaker panel is corroded and not isolated.

And you dont have an EGC.

So anyone touching that panel and touching something else that is grounded could get shocked.

I would set new meter main or meter and disconnect asap. Temp feed these 2 junk panels, then set a subpanel, connect to main with 4-wire feeder, then extend the existing circuits.

The breaker panel is not a sub panel. It connects to the meter as does the main fuse panel.

Bill

 

[AntonLargiader]

Aha, I didn't realize there were that many fused branch circuits. And wow, that really look nasty.

As Bert said, I would get clean, properly grounded power in there ASAP. I personally like outside disconnects so I would go that way, but some people don't.

And deal with the foundation drainage if you haven't already!

Anton,

Maybe photos will help. The panel with the fuses is the main panel and the one I want to cut out ASAP.

The "newer" panel with the 2 breakers is what I want to use temporarily as the feed to the new 200A main panel.

Bill

 

[ard]

The fuse panel is the old main service that needs immediate removal, but it has all the active circuits. So the plan is to first hang the new 200A panel and feed it from the existing 2 breaker panel. I could remove the 2 breakers and just use the panel as a junction box. That gives me a panel for new circuits. Meanwhile, I need to remove the fuse panel, In it's place I could put any 8 space panel to connect the existing circuits to. It would be fed from the new 200A panel.
After the outside entrance work is done I could connect it to the new main 200A panel and service drop. Finally, replace each existing circuit and run them to the new box and remove the temporary panel.

Workable plan?

Yup

That way you can basically separate the long and tedious process of “rewiring each room and circuit over time” with the “pull and replace the entire service.

In a prior life, I would pull the old panel, and hold it up and out of the way- also detach the old service cable, the meter base (if possible) and wire the new service in it’s permanent position. Then call for inspection. Then poco comes out and cuts over. Then transfer from =old to new.

Sometimes I would wire the new panel, but power it off the old panel w a temporary jumper. (Remove it before inspector showed up.)

Again, long ago.

 

[jeffmoss26]

yikes!

 

[bczygan]

yikes!

Indeed!!!

Bill

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The breaker panel is not a sub panel. It connects to the meter as does the main fuse panel.

Bill

so you have a double lug meter pan?

 

[Bert_]

so you have a double lug meter pan?

We all know it's not a double lug meter pan. Somebody in the last 50+ years needed more space so they just shoved another wire in and set the small breaker panel.

Meter box and the cable going up is probably still the original 60 or maybe 100a, if we're lucky, service

 

[bczygan]

We all know it's not a double lug meter pan. Somebody in the last 50+ years needed more space so they just shoved another wire in and set the small breaker panel.

Meter box and the cable going up is probably still the original 60 or maybe 100a, if we're lucky, service

True this!

Although I haven't pulled the meter to check, I don't see it being any different.

And as far as service size, the panel has 2 30A fuses feeding the branch circuits.
Isn't that a 60A panel?

Bill

 

[redidbull]

As said get the new metal panel off the concrete. Lots of moisture with metal on the concrete. I would also get the 200 amp panel mount it and run the new wires all back to the panel and wire it all up then have some one come over and do the outside work unless you feel comfortable doing it. When my Dad passed and we inherited my childhood home it had 60 amps. I had a guy come out and change the panel to 200 amp. Seeing the 1920 house had few outlets I had him add outlets around the house. I also had him run circuits from the panel to 4" junction boxes for addons later like a future 20 amp kitchen circuit and 20 amp garage circuit. Make sure you have arc fault and ground fault circuits where required. Jim

 

[sberry]

With help, 12k plus materials.

 

[Bigbandguy]

Yes, I plan on completely rewiring the house. Walls are a thick plaster board with a skim coat. Circuit wiring is cloth covered and no ground wiring. Going to fish new Romex.

Bill

I once worked on a complete rewire on a late '40's house wired much like yours. In those days the old black wire was rarely stapled to the stud near each junction as is usually required now. We were able to attach the new Romex to the old black wire and pull it through in most places. That didn't help with new outlets but it sure made a difference with making the old outlets safe. We wired every outlet with #12 and were able to branch from those to add outlets in many places.

Like someone mentioned we placed the new panel and back fed from the old until we were ready to cut over. In your case, the old panel is so unsafe that getting that thing out of there should be an early priority . Good luck!