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Whole house flicker

posaune

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I know it isn't specifically garage related, but I just noticed yesterday, after being away for three weeks, that my house lights are flickering. This doesn't just happen on one circuit - and at times it is pretty crazy. It isn't related to anything starting/stopping.

I'm assuming this means that it is a problem with either the main breaker in the house or something between the pole and the house. I am ALSO assuming that I need to do something asap.

Is there anything I can check on my own before calling the power company or an electrician? Is there a usual failure that causes this?
 
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nadogail

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1. Check with your neighbors, if they are seeing the same symptoms the cause is certainly outside of your house.

2. Is something in your house cycling on and off? I have a copier on a 15 Amp circuit that makees all the lights on the same circuit dim when the drum heater cycles.

3. How old is your wiring? I once had a simular problem in a new house; the builder needed to retiighten the connections at the meter base.
 

porschedude996TT

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I have a similar problem. When my air compressor turns on the lights in the kitchen flicker until the compressor turns off. I have had the problem for some time and though it would go away when I changed out my Service Entrance Meter Panel as part of my shop build. I assumed that it was becasue of loose ground or neutral on the kitchen lights or the somewhere on the ground/neutral buss.

I would be interested in what the smarties on the forum say about OP's problem because it may relate to mine.
 
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posaune

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1. Check with your neighbors, if they are seeing the same symptoms the cause is certainly outside of your house.

Yeah, I haven't seen them around since I've noticed the problem, but I stood outside in the rain last night like a fool, waiting for my lights to flicker so I could see if their outside lights did too. I got wet and it didn't happen until I gave up and was walking inside.

2. Is something in your house cycling on and off? I have a copier on a 15 Amp circuit that makees all the lights on the same circuit dim when the drum heater cycles.

Nope- no cycling unless it is something unseen/unheard like the septic pump, but even that I *should* be able to hear. This isn't a regular dimming followed by going back to normal though. It is really a flicker. At times the lights will get *brighter* too.

3. How old is your wiring? I once had a simular problem in a new house; the builder needed to retiighten the connections at the meter base.

The panel is relatively new. The house was built in '61, but the panel had been recently replaced when we moved in 2yrs ago. Every wire I've seen has been copper too, just in case somebody asks about aluminum...
 

Torque1st

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Bad connections like were mentioned above, specifically an open neutral will cause those "brighter" symptoms. Call an electrician or the power company ASAP.
 

BruceH

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I had the same exact problem. The buried feed "lost it's ground" due to cable deterioration according to the power company. No charge to fix.
 
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posaune

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Bad connections like were mentioned above, specifically an open neutral will cause those "brighter" symptoms. Call an electrician or the power company ASAP.

This might be a stupid question, but would the power company be able to do anything about that (since I am assuming it is a house-side problem) or should I just go directly to an electrician?
 

Torque1st

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The open neutral can be in your box or it may be in the drop to the house. The person in post #8 had a problem with the drop/service. The power company will come out to check for free most places.
 

Junkman

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The power company will do a check for free and tell you if you need to find an electrician. If you call an electrician, he will check from your end first, and charge you no matter what he finds. In the end, he might find that it is on the power side of the pole. I always like free first and pay later. :thumbup:
 
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posaune

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The power company will do a check for free and tell you if you need to find an electrician. If you call an electrician, he will check from your end first, and charge you no matter what he finds. In the end, he might find that it is on the power side of the pole. I always like free first and pay later. :thumbup:

Great! That is what I needed to know. Thanks, Junk. Time to call CL&P...
 

porschedude996TT

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I had the same problem, it was the splice in the wires coming into the barn.

PICT0419.jpg

Now that takes the Nasty Wiring Photo for the Month!
 

maching

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do you have a 100 amp service or a 200 amp service?

get a meter on test the voltage coming into the panel. make sure you have 120 and 220volts.
 
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posaune

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do you have a 100 amp service or a 200 amp service?

get a meter on test the voltage coming into the panel. make sure you have 120 and 220volts.

I'm embarrassed to say this, but I don't know. My AC electrical knowledge ends at replacing a light switch with the same kind. :( For that reason, I am leaving it to the electric co.

Fwiw, I checked in and around the panel and found no burnt wires or obvious problems. The person who answered my call seems to think that they will be able to fix it outside of the house, so I am hopeful...
 

Tscott

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Call the power company and have them verify the feed to your home. If this checks out then you need to talk to your neighbors who are on your transformer (if it's an overhead feed it should be easy to tell who is sharing a transformer) if none of them have problems, then call an electrician to check the house.

If the other neighbors on your transformer are having issues, then check with those not sharing a transformer with you. If they are not having problems then the problem could be a transformer about to fail, or it could be that one of your neighbors has a bad electric motor in their home that is affecting you. If the other neighbors not on your transformer are having problems then it could be some new load on the power line causing the issue and you will need to let the power company know this.

Have there been any new large factories or buildings built in your area? Are you in a very rural area or in a city? It is not unheard of for a new load miles down line to cause issues further up.

Tom
 

Skyline

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I had a similar problem, and it was caused by a tree rubbing on the drop from the pole to the house. I had to have some trees on my property trimmed back, but the damage to the drop had been done. One of the splices had gotten a little loose, and burnt up a bit (the telltale sign that I had a problem with the drop was that the plastic splice cover had melted into a liquid and distorted pieces of it were on the ground). The power company replaced the drop for free...but I had to pay for the tree work.
 
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posaune

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Of course, in the half hour that I was gone today, they came to check the lines to the house (the guy on the phone said they'd come tomorrow). They just left a note on the door, but it said that the voltage checked ok and that I should call an electrician. Lame.

Tonight I'll see if I can talk to a neighbor or at least *see* if their lights are flickering too. It will be obvious if they have outside lights on.

As far as I know, nothing has been built around here, and I am in a small town - not extra rural, but not really city either.
 

Aceman

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Don't worry about your neighbors stuff, this is your problem. Follow Torque's advice and get an electrician there before the under/overvoltages start wiping out appliances if it hasn't already. I'd unplug anything you want to save.
 

Mr_fixit

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I haad that problem. But it was only some lights in some rooms. I knew there was no problem with the house wiring, so I talked to one of the neighbors who's served by the same transformer. He had the same problem, only some of his lights in his house... It was one of the hot leads had a bad coonnection at the pole off the transformer. CAlled the power company, told them how we were both affected, a couple minutes at the pole , and the problem was gone.
 
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ddawg16

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Everyone should have a voltmeter.....

I had a simlar problem...every time I turned on my radial arm saw in the garage, the computer in the house would reboot. Using my 'voltmeter' I was able to confirm that the voltage on one let was jumping up to 140 Vac and the other was droping down to 90 Vac....

We had a bad transformer on the pole....which the power company promptly replaced....no hasels...because I was able to explain the problem.....

If someone takes a voltage measurement at your house when nothing is changing....the problem may not show up.....but, if you had a voltmeter...then you would be able to confirm if the problem was supply or connection....in other words....if you measure the voltage at you load center (circuit breaker box) while a load is being turned on...if the voltage does not change on a leg....then the problem is a bad connection...but if the incomming voltage takes a hit, then the problem belongs to the power company......
 
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posaune

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If someone takes a voltage measurement at your house when nothing is changing....the problem may not show up.....but, if you had a voltmeter...then you would be able to confirm if the problem was supply or connection....in other words....if you measure the voltage at you load center (circuit breaker box) while a load is being turned on...if the voltage does not change on a leg....then the problem is a bad connection...but if the incomming voltage takes a hit, then the problem belongs to the power company......

I wondered if that could happen. Why then would they just take one measurement and say it is fine?!? That is why I was hoping to be here when they came. This is not a constant flicker - it only happens occasionally and it *seems* worse at night, although that is hard to prove since I notice it mainly with the lights (which are rarely on during the day). Last night for example, there was nothing at all while we were cooking dinner and then right at the end, there was one bad enough to reset the [electric] stove.

I certainly have voltmeters, and can troubleshoot car electrics with some success, but I just don't know where to measure in a house and anything around the main panel still kind of scares me. Besides, I'd have to be measuring when it happens, and that is unlikely...
 

ddawg16

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Don't let it scare you.....it won't hurt as long as you don't touch the wrong wires....

Pull the cover off your load center (circuit breaker box).

I'm going to assume that you 220 coming in...most houses do...

You will have 3 large wires coming down the weather head, two 110 lines and the neutral. You get 220 if you connect something to two 110 lines.

It should be easy to tell which wire is which....most load centers have the lug for the neutral either in the middle or on the side. The 110 lugs will be lined up the the 2 rows of breakers.

Take your meter, connect one end to the neutral and the other to one of the 110 lugs.....have the wife turn on the oven....that should be enough of a load to show up a problem.

Or, take a hair dryer or vacuum and use it as a load. You will need to try different spots in the house to test both sides of your 110....if you are like most guys, you should have all your breakers marked on what they feed. Find 2 breakers next to each other that are feeding outlets......one will be one side of the 110...the other...the other side.

If you don't see any voltage drop when something is turned on, then start checking the wires on the circuit breakers.

I'm willing to bet that when you turn a heavy load on, you see the voltage between 110 to neutral drop on one side and go up on the other....if it happens at the load center...the problem is with the power company.

If you don't see any changes then there is a chance that a neighbor is doing something to pull a heavy load.
 
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posaune

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When he said his lights get brighter it means he has an open neutral. A very dangerous situation. Call the power company.

That is rare, but it did happen. I DID call the power company and told them what I told GJ. They checked their end and said nothing was wrong. I now have a call in to an electrician and am waiting for a call back.

In the mean time, I turned on everything that I could to see if it was a load related problem and load doesn't seem to affect it. I could not get anything to happen even with the oven, the burners, the toaster oven, all the lights and the stereo on.
 

Torque1st

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I have had an open neutral twice before and have heard of others. One time the neutral connection in the service panel corroded. The other time the service drop neutral parted. The loads you need to apply are 110 on ONE side of the line to see what happens to the voltage on the other side of the line to neutral. 220 loads like the oven will not show the problem and are heavy enough to make finding the problem harder.
 

rinny_tin_tin

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Northern Virginia
I know it isn't specifically garage related, but I just noticed yesterday, after being away for three weeks, that my house lights are flickering. This doesn't just happen on one circuit - and at times it is pretty crazy. It isn't related to anything starting/stopping.

I'm assuming this means that it is a problem with either the main breaker in the house or something between the pole and the house. I am ALSO assuming that I need to do something asap.

Is there anything I can check on my own before calling the power company or an electrician? Is there a usual failure that causes this?

Are the lights that are flickering Fluorescent by any chance? Are there incandescents flickering too?
 
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posaune

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I have had an open neutral twice before and have heard of others. One time the neutral connection in the service panel corroded. The other time the service drop neutral parted. The loads you need to apply are 110 on ONE side of the line to see what happens to the voltage on the other side of the line to neutral. 220 loads like the oven will not show the problem and are heavy enough to make finding the problem harder.

Oops. That was said above. It looks like my reading skills are on par with my electrical skills today!

Are the lights that are flickering Fluorescent by any chance? Are there incandescents flickering too?

No. In fact, the fluorescents don't do anything unless the incandescents are flickering *badly*.
 

malibu101

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In the mean time, I turned on everything that I could to see if it was a load related problem and load doesn't seem to affect it. I could not get anything to happen even with the oven, the burners, the toaster oven, all the lights and the stereo on.
Easy way to find the problem-Run her hard till she blows. :shocking:
Then it's easy to stand back and say "There's the problem." :lol_hitti
 

kerrville15

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First thing to do is get your voltmeter and go to your main. Get a reading between each of your hot & neutral legs; It should read around 120V. Do the same bewteen the each hot leg & the grounds (that is if the grounds/neutrals are split up, which they should be with the panel being 2yrs old). Then put your leads on the two hots coming in and you should read around 240V.

Then if everything is good there then turn off a couple if breakers throughout the panel and pull them out carefully to check to see if they look burnt, and to see of the busbar is burnt in any way.

Those are the first two things I would start with to get you pointed in the right direction. If you're not reading the 120V between hot & neutral or if you're not reading 240V between the hots, then there is probably a burnt wire on you overhead feed or like earlier stated a tree or something rubbing it making it lose connection momentarily & this is the power companies responsibility. If it is not the first thing, then it kind of sound like a burnt busbar that when you start getting a load on the panel, then it is heating up the breakers & arcing back and forth and not making a good connection, and it will eventually burn up your entire panel & breakers. Also check tightness of all of the allen screws where you're power comes into the main.

One last thing it could be is if you're at the very end of the line of where a power company services its customers then we have ran into problems where they either get power surges which makes you voltage either go way up which would explain bright lights, or way down wich would cause dimming & a lot of other problems. The power company can put a meter on their line to read voltage over periods of time to test this theory. Sorry for the long post, but since I'm an electrician I thought I would give you a couple of things to look for so you could save the money from a service call. And like someone said before if you have an open neutral, then that can start burning up appliances, etc. if you don't get it fixed.
 

hammlm

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Also check tightness of all of the allen screws where you're power comes into the main.

Kerrville;

I agree with what you said above, but I would caution that unless they have (1) experience, (2) rubber gloves and (3) insulated tools, to not check the tightness of those lugs. --- Unless of course he can pop the meter out --- which sounds doubtful based on his comfort level.

To those unitiated to working in panels, it's daunting to take the cover off thier main service panel. ...

That being said, based on the number of times I've seen loose lugs at the panel or the meter base in new construction, my money is that's where the problem lies.
 

Tscott

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This is sounding more and more like the power companies issue to me. If it was an issue with a piece of equipment in your home it should be easy to duplicate, but you say it is not.

The power company should be able to put a data recording device in your meter can. They can set this device to record data for a long period of time. You said they came to your home and checked things, but the probably just verified voltage and that the service drop was OK. Unless they record incoming voltage data they cannot properly diagnose the issue. They should record at least 24 hours of information. Believe me, just because they work at a power company does not mean they have a clue about how their stuff works.

If your electrician says your stuff is OK then a number of possibilities come to mind:

bad transformer

neighbors bad load causing problems at your house
(AC compressor maybe)

tree rubbing the primary conductor somewhere
(not the service drop, but the actual high voltage line)

Large industrial motor somewhere down line with undiagnosed problem (this could cause the dimming and brightening of lights)

Power company could have a bad ground or an open neutral somewhere



Lots of things cause flicker like you are talking about, and it can take a lot of work to find the cause so let them know your electrician cleared your place and you still have problems. Electricity can do some odd things.

We once had a customer complain then they were receiving shocks from water pipes around their home. A serviceman checked everything around their home on our system and theirs. We added more ground rods checked changed transformers all to no avail. We then found that a neighbor that lived across the lake had a well pump with a short in it. As soon as the pump was replaced the problem ceased. This just goes to show it can be a very obscure cause sometimes.

Tom
 

redsky49

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All of the above is helpful, and I have known electricians to do all sorts of stuff to a hot 110V panel, but unless you are qualified to fool around in the panel -keep your hands out! Too easy for you to end up being the ground source, and that can spoil your day.
As always, offered only as opinion
 

kerrville15

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Kerrville;

I agree with what you said above, but I would caution that unless they have (1) experience, (2) rubber gloves and (3) insulated tools, to not check the tightness of those lugs. --- Unless of course he can pop the meter out --- which sounds doubtful based on his comfort level.

To those unitiated to working in panels, it's daunting to take the cover off thier main service panel. ...

Very true; I guess when you work with it everyday it doesn't bother you & you just don't think twice about working with electricity. Definitely make sure you use properly insulated tools & if you don't feel comfortable, leave it to the professionals, because electricity can be scary & WILL hurt you if you're not careful.
 

Mattlt

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Kerrville;

--- Unless of course he can pop the meter out --- .

Don't count on pulling the meter shutting off the power. Yes, MOST of the time, pulling the meter does kill the power, but there are some types of meters that are mearly appliances - pulling them does nothing to shut off the power.

Not an advisable way to shut off the power anyway...

For many years in the fire service it was customary to pull meters; not any more.
 

Worsedog

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I had a similar problem with the lights getting brighter in the house intermittently. I called the poco and they sent someone out, of course it wasn't doing it while they were here. They said it must be something in the house causing the flicker. Apparently they ignored the part where I told them the lights were getting brighter not dimmer. When it continued of course I called back and they came out and recrimped the neutrals. That didn't help either, so I called back again and got the customer service bimbo who just parroted what was on the work order. I said I wanted to talk to an engineer. The engineer I got said they checked everthing out just like the bimbo told me and nothing was wrong. I asked if nothing was wrong why was I seeing voltage spikes on my 120 legs as high as 170 volts??? He told me I didn't know what I was talking about and that there was no way I could be certain what was happening as I insisted. I told him that they could leave it the way it was then and I would just sue them for my computer network, fridge, a/c etc when they were damaged. I said that my Fluke recording voltmeter would probably pass for evidence of the spikes. The next day they had a very nice voltage logger attached to my meter can. After three days they picked it up and on the morning of the fourth day they were putting a brand new transformer on the pole. Imagin that.....I didn't know what I was talking about yet the threat that I might was enough to spur some action other than lip service.

Amazing how they try to bs their way out of taking the time to do a proper diagnostic.
 

Terry Kennedy

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He told me I didn't know what I was talking about and that there was no way I could be certain what was happening as I insisted. I told him that they could leave it the way it was then and I would just sue them for my computer network, fridge, a/c etc when they were damaged. I said that my Fluke recording voltmeter would probably pass for evidence of the spikes.

Back in the early 80's I was the designer of some multiprocessor special-purpose business computers which the company sold in the $100K-250K range. We sold one to a Manhattan typesetting shop and they had it installed in the middle of nowhere (Arkville, NY) because the data entry operators would work for far less out there. Almost immediately there were complaints about lockups and errors. This typesetting shop had been using paper tape equipment with transistor logic and beefy linear power supplies. Microprocessors with 35ns static memory chips and switching power supplies couldn't cope with the wild spikes and sags in power.

I went up there with the owner of the company and a leased Dranetz power quality meter. We set it up in the late afternoon and went out for a leisurely dinner. When we came back, all of the adding-machine tape from the Dranetz was coiled on the floor, reporting continuous errors. The Dranetz itself was catatonic and had to be sent back to the manufacturer to be rebuilt.

My computer was moved to Manhattan where it ran for quite a few years. The owner of the typesetting shop cancelled the service contract "to save money". A few years later, I get a panic call from him that the system isn't working. I go over there and find a solid inch of dust and paper shards blocking the air filter. Fearing the worst, I opened the top of the card cage and discovered that it had gotten so hot in there that the gold caps on the RAM chips had un-melted from the solder and fallen down to the bottom of the memory array.

I was able to reconfigure the system from 8 entry stations plus the high-speed transmitter to the typesetting machine, down to 2 stations plus the transmitter.

This system was used to typeset the first editions of a number of books you may have heard of:

"The Islamic Bomb" - a NY Times book and the first one completely done on the system I designed.
"License Renewed" - the first post-Fleming Bond novel by John Gardner
"2010: Odyssey Two" - while the liner notes state that the text was transmitted electronically from Sri Lanka to New York, that went to the publisher and was printed out. That copy was re-entered by hand on the system I designed after the copy was marked up with typesetting cues.
 

Charles (in GA)

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Our entire subdivision, which is located by itself in a rural area, suffered from power spikes, dips and other issues for several years. Finally the power company, seeing the increase in service to this area upped the size of the main feed cables into the area and those problems went away.

Well after that, I occasionally noticed flickering of lights, but it was so slight as to lead me to think it was my imagination. Finally I came home one day and found that much of the lights and other items in the house did not work, I opened the panelboard and took a volt meter and found that one hot leg was dead. This is an underground feed to the house. The power company came out (it was Friday afternoon) and placed a converter box next to the meter and it plugged in where the meter was, then the meter plugged in on top of it. It took the existing hot that worked and and rephased it for the other hot going into the house, thus putting all of the load on the remaining underground hot. This worked for about two or three hours, until everything went dead. I ran extension cords in from my shop to power lights and the fridge for the weekend and on Monday the power company crew showed up with some fancy equipment and found the dead spot in the underground feed, dug it up and fixed it, then found three more "weak" spots, dug them up and repaired them also. Thats been six or seven years ago and I haven't had any problems since.

Charles
 
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