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Why are American's tool boxes so big?

TheCarbideRat

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Ya they ***** but there is some good info in that thread, if you read it [i know it's long, and 7 years in length as a matter of fact] there are more than a few guys who take the opposite viewpoint. Anyways, the young bucks just out of tech school need a place to vent.
 
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TheCarbideRat

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One thing I took away from that thread is that many of the top techs have left the trade for better paying elsewhere, thats one reason why wages in the industry seem low.

One of the funniest [maybe not so funny] quotes: "I SCAM WARRANTY TO FEED MY FAMILY"

Now is that guy a bad or good tech? How do you know, he may be one of the best of us, trying to feed his family. Being a good tech doesn't guarantee anything you got to be a good tech AND a good politician to make it, that's what I've seen after 30 years in. I'm not trying to start an argument, just my take.
 
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XxToolAholicxX

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Because everything in America is BIG. lol
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a Toolaholic,Sometimes I regret it,Especially when the Toolman wont give me no credit
 

Gmonkee

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Flat rate and screwy workplace policy can make for the tech to learn to cut corners and other less than ideal practices just to make a good paycheck. If the honest guy can't make pay but another can because he cheats a bit the system has gone bad.

Indy shops are no work, no pay around me. Good week or light week I try to do the most correct repairs possible because I can't feel the pressures to upsell work or cut corners to save a dime. Lose the client is a greater loss than to lose a small boost on a spot job. My boss has a lot of long term clients too.
Eventually every car returns for more anyway, we want it to be us he returns to.

I won't ever make as much as a flat rate tech but I go home with my head held high knowing my work is as good as it could be.
 

Trexaurs

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Late to the party but the generals answer have been covered I see. It comes down to being prepared for any job it maybe and then some. having the proper tool will make the job easy and less painful. Compare in trying to fudge a job by making due to what you have which will cause time and stress.
 

GTA Matt

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Right-O, how the flat raters sleep at night is a mystery to me. :3gears:

WTF does that mean? In a bed, the same as everyone else. Awful broad generalization you're drawing off of a few internet posts. A hack is a hack, regardless of how they get paid. If you would like, I can tell you my stories about hourly techs... ;)
 

ttpete

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WTF does that mean? In a bed, the same as everyone else. Awful broad generalization you're drawing off of a few internet posts. A hack is a hack, regardless of how they get paid. If you would like, I can tell you my stories about hourly techs... ;)

One owner I worked for had a way of insuring good work. If you had a come-back that was your fault, you fixed it for free, and you were also docked for tying up the hoist or stall that could have been used for another car.
 

TheCarbideRat

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WTF does that mean? In a bed, the same as everyone else. Awful broad generalization you're drawing off of a few internet posts. A hack is a hack, regardless of how they get paid. If you would like, I can tell you my stories about hourly techs... ;)

I use the term a bit differently, so your question is very valid. When I see damaged, improperly tightened, missing hardware/fasteners, damaged parts, leaks, rattles, CE lites on a recent repair that's what I am talking about. Most of the time the problem stems from the tech not taking the time to do the repair correctly, or learn the proper procedures/equipment involved. If i'm lumping in a few other morons in my description then oh well, but the majority of technician installed problems spring from the same vein, not taking care to do it the right way, [the flat rate way]. Your scorched earth definition to it "a hack is a hack" indicates your lack of knowledge/research into this serious problem.
 

BoostAddiction

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I suspect that some of the differences have to do with culture. In the European garages I've seen, the mechanics have a small set of tools, and the garage supplies whatever specialty tools are required. For example, if you need to burp a coolant system, the garage supplies the specialized tool. Here, the norm is that each tech would have such a tool.

Exceptions are dealers which tend to have more make-specific tools because the manufacturer requires them to have them. When the VW Phaeton came out, dealers that carried them were required to "invest" in over $10K in special, Phaeton-specific tools, and send techs to training on these very complex cars. This is not atypical for any line.

Another reason is that American repair shops tend to be broader in their focus, handling general repairs on every aspect of the car. In Europe, there are actually shops that only do electrical or fuel injection work. The net of that is that while there are more specific tools for the shop specialty, fewer tools overall are needed, as only the tools needed for electrical or fuel injection are needed. Fewer tools, so smaller boxes.

And finally, I think Europeans pay more for their tools, which probably affects sales. It's harder to fill a big box when tools cost so much more. When I saw tool prices in Europe, they seemed to be similar to, or slightly higher than US prices- except they were in Euros, not dollars!
 

devoncoolman

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WTF does that mean? In a bed, the same as everyone else. Awful broad generalization you're drawing off of a few internet posts. A hack is a hack, regardless of how they get paid. If you would like, I can tell you my stories about hourly techs... ;)

Yup got a queen size bed quite comfy. I agree i sleep fine. Been flat rate my whole career. Theres hacks on both sides of the fence. Being hourly doesn't meen you automatically do everything better then anyone else. I pride my self in repairing vehicles properly and right the first time. I can get things done faster then everyone else because 1 i own the proper tools and specialty tools to do it properly and faster. 2 i apply myself and work smarter and quicker. I don't need to cut corners to be fast.

Ive seen so many people take way to much **** apart to access something when a long extension and a swivel socket would have done the same task in a fraction of the time and not to any lower quality level then the other way. Most of the hourly guys ive worked with are class A time wasters. Everything from taking too many piss breaks to taking forever to do something.
 

GTA Matt

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I use the term a bit differently, so your question is very valid. When I see damaged, improperly tightened, missing hardware/fasteners, damaged parts, leaks, rattles, CE lites on a recent repair that's what I am talking about. (that's the very definition of a hack...) Most of the time the problem stems from the tech not taking the time to do the repair correctly, or learn the proper procedures/equipment involved. If i'm lumping in a few other morons in my description then oh well, but the majority of technician installed problems spring from the same vein, not taking care to do it the right way, [the flat rate way]. Your scorched earth definition to it "a hack is a hack" indicates your lack of knowledge/research into this serious problem.

So you're using the term flat rate as slang for hurried up, half *** work? My definition of that is a hack. To me, 'flat rate' is a type of pay. It doesn't matter if they guy doing it is payed flat rate or is hourly or salary, they'll still screw **** up just the same. I deal with cars like this every day, from every type of shop imaginable. There is a huge problem in this industry and its not all the pay systems fault. It stems from techs lack of education, lack of caring or integrity, greedy shop owners, uneducated customers, cheap customers, etc. Not all techs are the same, there are some great techs out there. I help run a page of over 11,000 techs, I am VERY aware of the problems in the industry.
 
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Gmonkee

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We as a culture have a tendency to talk of the bad, the WTF stuff we see and experience without bothering to talk of the good. I did not say all shops and shop policy that have flat rate are ridicuous and horrible. I am sure some shops are very good work enviorments.
Its the bad shops and the lazy/sloppy techs that make the news. Some guys here work or have worked at some and shared stories. Some of us on this very forum might even be that sloppy tech. I myself once worked for a guy that cheated his clients selling new parts and installing used or repaired by my hands. I did not stay long either. My conscience wouldn't let me.

TCRat makes a very valid point and I have worked behind these guys many times. Small leaks, missing hose clamps, loose or missing hardware and every sort of shortcut because "it was too hard " or takes effort to get that last bolt in place.

Where I'm at its all indy shops and 'nephews' that did the work, not too many big shops around me. It does play across the board equally well. My point was that poorly managed flat rate shops force the guys to do this stuff or suffer small paychecks. The others have the option most of the time to try to do it right.
 

Heavy Metal Doctor

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A hack is a hack, regardless of how they get paid. If you would like, I can tell you my stories about hourly techs... ;)

Yeah, I agree. Reading some of the comments just make me wonder about people......I've worked hourly in an equipment dealer for 20 years and I've seen just as many hourly hacks as all these stories you hear of the flat rate ones.
The hourly hacks usually get by because they work for people who know nothing about repair. They a don't realize their hourly guy is spending tons of their money on excessive / wasteful BS - they just think it's great that they can have their guy fix it at the $24 they pay him instead of going to the dealer and getting hosed for $125 shop labor rate....and they seem oblivious to the fact that he has to fix it twice (at a slower pace, I might add, since he's doesn't actually know the job) with 4 times the parts I would use for the same repair before it actually works...

The difference in either system if the cream will always rise to the top -- top guys are top performers of quality work, not the biggest corner-cutters getting the biggest rip-off / half *** repairs invoiced out.
 
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TheCarbideRat

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I'm not trying to dis you or your shop. If I had the time now I would get further into what I was trying to say, and I thin k you would mostly agree. As it stands now I have 6 1/2 hrs until I have to get up for work.
 

TheCarbideRat

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Yup got a queen size bed quite comfy. I agree i sleep fine. Been flat rate my whole career. Theres hacks on both sides of the fence. Being hourly doesn't meen you automatically do everything better then anyone else. I pride my self in repairing vehicles properly and right the first time. I can get things done faster then everyone else because 1 i own the proper tools and specialty tools to do it properly and faster. 2 i apply myself and work smarter and quicker. I don't need to cut corners to be fast.

Ive seen so many people take way to much **** apart to access something when a long extension and a swivel socket would have done the same task in a fraction of the time and not to any lower quality level then the other way. Most of the hourly guys ive worked with are class A time wasters. Everything from taking too many piss breaks to taking forever to do something.

Oh really now? How about not? You are just another ego-stroker, ..I myself work flat-rate.....so ignorant.
 

TheCarbideRat

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Let me clarify: I'm not attacking someone who works flat rate, although we are part of the problem in this industry because we let this system operate. Flat rate only benefits the dealers and owners of garages no matter how much you try to defend the system all you are doing is defending the owners scamming the public and the techs. I am assuming a basic level of competency and professionalism in my critique, you dolts who cant see past your egos want to of course twist what I am saying to fit your views, good luck with that.

Answer me this Dr. Lightning Bolt who can fix anything: you have a 2005 Volvo XC 5cyl turbo motor job to do. All Data says you get 10 hours to do it. GO.

Unless you are well aquainted with this model you are losing your *** on this job. You will be taking shortcuts if you want to minimize loss of *** and the job will be WHAT I AM CALLING "flat-rated". Go ahead, twist and mangle what I am saying, fine by me.
 

GTA Matt

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Ok, I think there was some misunderstanding in your use of the term flat rate. None of us like hack work or "flat raters" as you call it. We can all agree with that. It makes the whole industry look bad. I don't think that name calling is called for and I have seen zero ego tripping here. I see guys who care enough about their jobs, their customers and their industry enough to bother to comment about it. Just from their comments I have seen on this site and the last few posts here, I know that some of these guys are great techs who care.

As for the flat rate pay system, I can't think of a more fair way to charge the customer for the work that is being performed. If the job pays 10 hours, that means they should be able to call several shops for estimates, and all the shops should quote 10 hours. The only variance would be hourly rate and parts markup. It *should* keep shop A from charging 7 hours and shop B from charging 15 hours for the same work. As far as the tech trying to make time, that's entirely up to the integrity of the tech. Personally, unless I was given a healthy hourly rate or salary, I would prefer to stay on flat rate. You take the good with the bad.

And I did 3 volvo engines last year. They are surprisingly pretty easy lol!
 
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Spinaker01

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Oh I must have dropped in on the wrong thread by mistake, I thought this was about oversized toolboxes not flat rate vs hourly......
 

devoncoolman

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Let me clarify: I'm not attacking someone who works flat rate, although we are part of the problem in this industry because we let this system operate. Flat rate only benefits the dealers and owners of garages no matter how much you try to defend the system all you are doing is defending the owners scamming the public and the techs. I am assuming a basic level of competency and professionalism in my critique, you dolts who cant see past your egos want to of course twist what I am saying to fit your views, good luck with that.

Answer me this Dr. Lightning Bolt who can fix anything: you have a 2005 Volvo XC 5cyl turbo motor job to do. All Data says you get 10 hours to do it. GO.

Unless you are well aquainted with this model you are losing your *** on this job. You will be taking shortcuts if you want to minimize loss of *** and the job will be WHAT I AM CALLING "flat-rated". Go ahead, twist and mangle what I am saying, fine by me.

Yeah no. Nobody is ego tripping here bud. You seem to be lumping everybody into the same catagory here including your self. Like i said there's hacks on both sides of the fence. Abolishing the flat rate system will not solve this problem. I would go either way hourly or flat rate. But my hourly rate would have to be pretty high to match what i make flat rate. I make the majority of my overage (flat rated) hours on diagnostic work. We get a base 1hr to diagnose let say a check engine light. Say it takes me 20mins because its a common bad coil on a ford escape. Well i still get my hr. Thats what the majority of my week consists of. Knowing a vehicle because of experience is not cutting corners.

Not trying to argue here. But this industry is very diverse and the different pay systems are in place for a reason. Flat rate keeps lazy techs moving.
 

t4runner

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Flat rate or hourly has exactly what to do with the OP's original question which was "Why are American's tool boxes so big?"
 

GTA Matt

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Oh this thread was doomed from the start lol. I think somewhere along the way someone mentioned a bigger box equaled more tools/better organization/better efficiency for flat rate. We knocked it the rest of the way off the rails after that.
 

wagzilla

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Oh this thread was doomed from the start lol. I think somewhere along the way someone mentioned a bigger box equaled more tools/better organization/better efficiency for flat rate. We knocked it the rest of the way off the rails after that.
I think it drives most of us crazy if we loose a tool, So the bigger tool box helps almost like F.O.D. in 30 years I have only lost a few tools. I sure do miss my grandpa's tool box it was small and he could fix anything!! The good ol days.

James
 
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t4runner

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It has to do with tool addiction and making sure everything has to be in its place, its a vicious circle. Do you really need 5 different type of the same size wrenches ( or ratchet wrenches ) to do the job. Deep, semi-deep, shallow and then all those in a swivel. Dont forget at least a dozen or so 3/8 drive ratchets, several types of 1/2 drive ratchets and couple 3/4 drive. I must have at least 60 pairs of pliers and 25-35 screw drivers and so on. Do I absolutely need all those tools HELL NO But it sure can make life easier at time.
 

devoncoolman

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You know why we need bigger boxes. Because it America thats why. But i have tons of tools and work on a large variety of vehicles and equipment so its all gotta go somewhere.
 
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