Just curious why all pex transition fittings (copper to pex) in the box stores made of brass? Why aren't they made of copper (pictured)? Is it a cost issue? Reliability? I'd like to order some copper fittings for ease of soldering... any downside or good to go? I hate soldering brass... yeah yeah I know there's a trick to it but I'm a homeowner not a plumber lol
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Why are pex adapters brass and not copper?
- Thread starter Sh40674
- Start date
twistedstang
Well-known member
The adapter in the picture sure looks like copper. As for a trick for sweating brass???? Its no different than copper.
alcorelli
Well-known member
There's no difference in the soldering.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
finn
Well-known member
That’s a Copper fitting.
Brass seems like it’s used for heavy wall threaded more often, presumably because it’s easier to machine and is stronger. Brass fittings are also more expensive.
Yes, I am aware of threaded copper sweat fittings, and have used them.
Brass seems like it’s used for heavy wall threaded more often, presumably because it’s easier to machine and is stronger. Brass fittings are also more expensive.
Yes, I am aware of threaded copper sweat fittings, and have used them.
I'm aware that I posted a copper fitting... that was for reference to what I was talking about.
I'm just wondering if there are any cons to using these over brass. I never have luck with brass nor want to discuss soldering brass. Just wondering why these aren't more widely available and if they are good to go or if they have any downsides over the brass fittings
I'm just wondering if there are any cons to using these over brass. I never have luck with brass nor want to discuss soldering brass. Just wondering why these aren't more widely available and if they are good to go or if they have any downsides over the brass fittings
Wheelingit
Well-known member
Copper is too soft and can distort under a crimp resulting in a leaking fitting.
Copper is too soft and can distort under a crimp resulting in a leaking fitting.
I was wondering that but I see manifolds and stub outs made of only copper
welder4956
Well-known member
There's no difference in the soldering.
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I hate soldering the lead free brass alloys that use silicon or bismuth to replace the lead. The heat transfer is poor and does not transfer heat to the pipe inside the socket as easy as a copper fitting, so it takes longer to get the fitting up to temperature and you have to take extra care to make sure the pipe is up to temperature too. To compound the problem, the lead free solders have a melting point in the 420-440 F range compared to 360-420 F for 50/50 solder.
p00p
Well-known member
I hate soldering the lead free brass alloys that use silicon or bismuth to replace the lead. The heat transfer is poor and does not transfer heat to the pipe inside the socket as easy as a copper fitting, so it takes longer to get the fitting up to temperature and you have to take extra care to make sure the pipe is up to temperature too. To compound the problem, the lead free solders have a melting point in the 420-440 F range compared to 360-420 F for 50/50 solder.
After roughing up the area to be joined, i've tried black flux with success. The copper had an unknown source & wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't USA made.
Usually white flux is the go to for prep.
DocsMachine
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,855
Easy.
Copper is used where the material is drawn or swaged into shape. Brass is used where the part is machined to shape.
Copper draws better than brass, brass machines better than copper.
That's really all there is to it.
Doc.
Copper is used where the material is drawn or swaged into shape. Brass is used where the part is machined to shape.
Copper draws better than brass, brass machines better than copper.
That's really all there is to it.
Doc.
Easy.
Copper is used where the material is drawn or swaged into shape. Brass is used where the part is machined to shape.
Copper draws better than brass, brass machines better than copper.
That's really all there is to it.
Doc.
So no reliability issues using copper?
Why no copper fittings in the stores? Figure it would be a no brainer given how cheap copper fittings are and how much easier to sweat them
matt_i
Well-known member
Easy.
Copper is used where the material is drawn or swaged into shape. Brass is used where the part is machined to shape.
Copper draws better than brass, brass machines better than copper.
That's really all there is to it.
Doc.
This is best explanation. Copper is a dance between it being soft and easily deformed and gaining strength thru work-hardening up to the point where its got a crack and is worth less than nothing for a plumbing problem.
So forming copper fittings is a highly specialized process that needs to be tweaked, needs a certain amount of heat...a fitting like a copper Tee can't be cold-formed as it would certainly tear, so back to the dance of tuning and optimizing a process to make them in volume.
I don't know how many sweat-PEX adapters there are made each day but I'm thinking its a lot lower than the number of sweat-only parts. Brass then might make sense from the point of turning them via bar-chucking lathes.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
The choice of copper vs brass on the manufacture is strictly an issue of the manufactability.
Brass has relatively low overhead cost and somewhat higher material cost. Most brass fitting can be completely machined from brass bar stock in a dual spindle slant bed lathe with a live tool turret head. Take less than a min to machine and no deburring if careful programing/tool selection. Very low handling/labor. Also you can run one fitting this shift and in 15 mins to change bar stock and programs run another size or style fitting next shift. Demand goes up, just drop another lathe on the floor.
Copper machines like S#*%. So those parts are swaged/formed from pipe. This typically takes much more very customized equipment to feed, cut, anneal mulitiple times and swaged possibly in multiple steps(with annealing in between). Each machine probably needs an operator. Material cost can be lower due to no or minimal waste, and its possible to make more per shift but the equipment can be so specialized that it could only make one fitting and could not be changed over.
If demand exceeds the line capacity you need to add an additional line taking up much space and capital.
Brass has relatively low overhead cost and somewhat higher material cost. Most brass fitting can be completely machined from brass bar stock in a dual spindle slant bed lathe with a live tool turret head. Take less than a min to machine and no deburring if careful programing/tool selection. Very low handling/labor. Also you can run one fitting this shift and in 15 mins to change bar stock and programs run another size or style fitting next shift. Demand goes up, just drop another lathe on the floor.
Copper machines like S#*%. So those parts are swaged/formed from pipe. This typically takes much more very customized equipment to feed, cut, anneal mulitiple times and swaged possibly in multiple steps(with annealing in between). Each machine probably needs an operator. Material cost can be lower due to no or minimal waste, and its possible to make more per shift but the equipment can be so specialized that it could only make one fitting and could not be changed over.
If demand exceeds the line capacity you need to add an additional line taking up much space and capital.
welder4956
Well-known member
The brass solder fittings and valves are usually castings that must be finished by machining. Threaded fittings such as compression fittings, adapters and bushings are usually machined from brass hex stock. Solder tees, elbows and reducers are usually formed or swaged from copper tube and are not normally machined. The choice is usually driven by manufacturing cost.
andyvh1959
Well-known member
Copper is an element, Cu, on the periodic table. Brass is an alloy of copper, zinc, sometimes lead, manganese. Not all brass is the same alloy, some is Brass 360, or Brass 363, or Brass 260, or Red Brass. Alloys combined to produce different structural capabilities, machining capabilities, forging, etc. Brass fittings can be cast, extruded or forged. A lot of brass fittings are either made from extruded bar stock, or forged/stampings. Difference again is in grain structure and material strength that is better in brass than in the copper itself.
twistedstang
Well-known member
So in a nutshell no reliability issues using the copper adapters... just not a popular choice do to manufacturing
Yes.
As for your fear of soldering brass.....if you're using a small turbo torch always use mapp gas and not acetylene. It runs hotter. Also keep the torch head about 3 inches away from the joint. Closer isn't hotter. Move the torch head around the joint and back and forth from the cup of the joint to the pipe. A properly heated joint, the solder should melt when it touches the joint and run into the full circumference of the joint with capillary action. A joint that still has water in it is a pain in the *** to heat whether its copper or brass