67King
Well-known member
****, you are right, I read the wrong chart. What I read had been normalized to a per unit mass number.
Why are titanium tools so expensive?
- Thread starter katiexoxo
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****, you are right, I read the wrong chart. What I read had been normalized to a per unit mass number.
I've spent a great deal of time welding titanium. TIG welding on 6AL-4V is just like welding high alloy steels like 4130 or whatever, except maybe even easier. The puddle is 'lighter' and less sluggish. The back purge that's required, and the slow movements once the arc is off so that you don't disturb your layer of argon, are what makes it tough. If you're meticulous that stuff isn't all that bad to handle.
I agree with above. The last company I worked for did extensive testing and development on welding titanium. We found that shielding gas is only required until the weld puddle solidifies. After that any contamination is only on the surface and can be wire brushed off.
As for machining with HSS tools, no problem. As stated above the keys are relatively slow cutting speed, relatively heavy feed, sharp tools and lots of coolant
I machined titanium successfully for the first time in 1964.
As for machining with HSS tools, no problem. As stated above the keys are relatively slow cutting speed, relatively heavy feed, sharp tools and lots of coolant
I machined titanium successfully for the first time in 1964.
I remember that someone had a very expensive bicycle whose frame was made of some kind of titanium,it was undesirably whippy and flexible. If as strong as steel,then much less rigid. People used to say that aluminum was more rigid than steel for the same strength.
Duralum used in WW. II aircraft was said to be much stronger than other aluminum alloys-I wonder if it is still around today[/QUOTE
Ti makes for an awesome bike I have two. The build quality is a work of art
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manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Ti tools are expensive because they are needed in special situations - like working in flammable or explosive atmospheres. It's not ferrous so it won't make a spark if struck or dropped and make things go boom.
Regardless of the cost to make them; the risk to not use them is too high, therefore they command a high selling price. Production volume is low, further contributing to high sell prices.
Regardless of the cost to make them; the risk to not use them is too high, therefore they command a high selling price. Production volume is low, further contributing to high sell prices.
And your both right and wrong at the same time. Yehhhh. TI is actually really easy to weld, alloy dependent. However, it if is not welded in an oxygen free environment you can make very pretty, very brittle welds, with almost no strength.
There was a high school solar car team that I competed against in high school. They built there car almost entirely out of TI. Really cool. They had some welds break because the back purge was not good. They also were able to make road side repair in an uncontrolled environment.
The team is long gone, but the car was cool. You can find a picture here:
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...iana-races-during-the-solar-picture-id1127990
Derek420
Banned
Those are beautiful hammers now I want one great..... Wife is gonna kill me i just told her id be done buying till Christmas where do I find a titanium hammer?
Here's an example of what goes into making a titanium tool:
Great for hammers because of superior shock absorption, also useful when soldering as solder does not adhere to titanium and the tool can withstand high temperatures. Not really practical for much else given the inherent production and wear difficulties, unless you're talking about exotic alloys or titanium ceramic coatings.
Great for hammers because of superior shock absorption, also useful when soldering as solder does not adhere to titanium and the tool can withstand high temperatures. Not really practical for much else given the inherent production and wear difficulties, unless you're talking about exotic alloys or titanium ceramic coatings.
Aluminum has a density of .1lbs/in3
Young's modulus is around 10 million
UTS about 80,000psi on a good day
6AL-4V has a density of .16
Young modulus of 16 million
UTs around 160,000
Alloy steel has a density of .287
Young's modulus is 28 million
UTS could be 150,000 all the way up to 300,000psi
Stiffness or Young's modulus are all in proportion to density, meaning no one material is stiffer than the other by weight.wood is actually disproportionately stiff for its weight.
In terms of ultimate tensile strength, all 3 materials vary in accordance with their heat treatment and alloy, but the upper range of each is roughly in proportion to density. The great thing about steel is it is so customizable.
In engineering, the highest strength materials are not always the most desirable. In aerospace engineering, we typically choose ti for high temperature applications. TIs mechanical properties don't change much at high temps, so it's good for engine fairings, SR-71 skins etc.(because they get so hot).
I too get annoyed with the ti growers lobby that insist on saying it is the worlds strongest metal. It's not even close. Nor is it strongest for its weight.
Russia has tons of it in the Ural Mountains. They make shovels out of it. It is also found in a South Africa. We don't typically buy Titanium from Russia. ( I think you guys just like making **** up). Last I looked, the Japanese govt would not permit Japanese companies to export 6AL-4V, the most commonly used aerospace grade ti alloy. The Japanese titanium bicycle parts are some ****** grade of ti, and likely more marketing hype than superior strengthen parts.
Young's modulus is around 10 million
UTS about 80,000psi on a good day
6AL-4V has a density of .16
Young modulus of 16 million
UTs around 160,000
Alloy steel has a density of .287
Young's modulus is 28 million
UTS could be 150,000 all the way up to 300,000psi
Stiffness or Young's modulus are all in proportion to density, meaning no one material is stiffer than the other by weight.wood is actually disproportionately stiff for its weight.
In terms of ultimate tensile strength, all 3 materials vary in accordance with their heat treatment and alloy, but the upper range of each is roughly in proportion to density. The great thing about steel is it is so customizable.
In engineering, the highest strength materials are not always the most desirable. In aerospace engineering, we typically choose ti for high temperature applications. TIs mechanical properties don't change much at high temps, so it's good for engine fairings, SR-71 skins etc.(because they get so hot).
I too get annoyed with the ti growers lobby that insist on saying it is the worlds strongest metal. It's not even close. Nor is it strongest for its weight.
Russia has tons of it in the Ural Mountains. They make shovels out of it. It is also found in a South Africa. We don't typically buy Titanium from Russia. ( I think you guys just like making **** up). Last I looked, the Japanese govt would not permit Japanese companies to export 6AL-4V, the most commonly used aerospace grade ti alloy. The Japanese titanium bicycle parts are some ****** grade of ti, and likely more marketing hype than superior strengthen parts.
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Know Wosad
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Superbec
Well-known member
just because you can ,doesn't make it easy , it's just not easy, tig welding is not an easy process to master by itself , chamber welding makes it even more difficult and much more expensive ... trail purge and other helping artifacts sure don't make it easier just possible .
btw , any discoloration is a weld defect ! easy as pie !
so what exactly are you trying to say here? it's easy but it's not ...
if it's not exactly easy (sometimes it brakes ) than it's NOT EASY !!!
Sure is easy when you know what alloy you're using , what about when you don"t? didn't think of that, did you?
As I stated earlier, blue discoloration that forms after the weld solidifies is not a defect. The experimentation to prove this was done in the corporate technology center at BAE systems, Ground Systems Div. in San Jose Cal.
Adam has some good info there. There are a lot of different grades of Ti and in the consumer market I see a lot of junk that is labeled as Ti that is not made from the normal high strength alloys and heat treated properly.
I was head of engineering at a fastener plant the made Ti screws for fighter planes. We used 6-4 Ti for the parts and even then we had to get a special higher purity grade that was also annealed to a dead soft condition so that we could warn form it at about 900 degrees. That wire, processed and drawn to the right diameter, with all the aerospace certs that are required, cost us $27 / pound.
Everything about working and machining Ti is just a little bit harder that carbon steel, it has a higher yield strength so it is harder to form. It work hardens quicker so you have to be on top of it when machining. Heat treatment is a PIA because it has to be done in a vacuum or the material oxidizes like a *****- I used to have a brick of screws that fused together in the furnace when we lost our seal.
Strength wise we could get to about 190,000 psi UTS on it with special quenching processes. Compare that to a regular old socket screw that will run in the 175 - 220,000 psi range from alloy steel or something like 300M steel that can reach 300,000 psi easily.
The material that is a real PIA to work with is Inconel 718- this is a material for hot sections in engines and it will hold it's strength even when heated up to 1,200 degrees. It work hardens faster than anything I've seen and once it has hardened it is almost impossible to cut, even with carbide- it just skates off the surface. Trying to form it is a real treat too- we heated it to about 1,800 degrees and then used water cooler header tooling in the forming machines for it. Interestingly enough, it extrudes really well (probably because it has so much column strength) but upsetting it is seriously difficult.
I was head of engineering at a fastener plant the made Ti screws for fighter planes. We used 6-4 Ti for the parts and even then we had to get a special higher purity grade that was also annealed to a dead soft condition so that we could warn form it at about 900 degrees. That wire, processed and drawn to the right diameter, with all the aerospace certs that are required, cost us $27 / pound.
Everything about working and machining Ti is just a little bit harder that carbon steel, it has a higher yield strength so it is harder to form. It work hardens quicker so you have to be on top of it when machining. Heat treatment is a PIA because it has to be done in a vacuum or the material oxidizes like a *****- I used to have a brick of screws that fused together in the furnace when we lost our seal.
Strength wise we could get to about 190,000 psi UTS on it with special quenching processes. Compare that to a regular old socket screw that will run in the 175 - 220,000 psi range from alloy steel or something like 300M steel that can reach 300,000 psi easily.
The material that is a real PIA to work with is Inconel 718- this is a material for hot sections in engines and it will hold it's strength even when heated up to 1,200 degrees. It work hardens faster than anything I've seen and once it has hardened it is almost impossible to cut, even with carbide- it just skates off the surface. Trying to form it is a real treat too- we heated it to about 1,800 degrees and then used water cooler header tooling in the forming machines for it. Interestingly enough, it extrudes really well (probably because it has so much column strength) but upsetting it is seriously difficult.
Inconel was used for the shadow mask, the thin sheet, on old TV's. We now use it for composite tooling because it's coefficient of thermal expansion is so low. That's why they used it on TV's too. It's not so much it's strength that we want from it.
I've speced out many titanium fasteners. We use them where we are attaching graphite because graphite and aluminum create a battery. The fasteners I used, 3/16" diameter or 5/32" maybe an inch long were $5 or $6 if we were lucky, and all the way up to $50/ each. We bought 1000s at a time.
I've speced out many titanium fasteners. We use them where we are attaching graphite because graphite and aluminum create a battery. The fasteners I used, 3/16" diameter or 5/32" maybe an inch long were $5 or $6 if we were lucky, and all the way up to $50/ each. We bought 1000s at a time.
If a European name made tools from titanium at affordable prices I would be the poster boy.
Even an Eastern European name. The difference in quality is usually difficult to detect.
I use carbon steel wrenches as well as the fancy alloy stuff and until they wear out the precise qualities of the base metals barely matter.
And for my experience there are brands and styles I prefer not to use. Others swear they are hands down the best.
So is there really a best/perfect/ one for everyone tool?
No, just a lot of candidates for us to choose from. Add in exotic metals or composite material mixes just makes it more interesting.
I would want the light weight factor first and if affordable and easily replaced when worn, it makes them practical.
Even an Eastern European name. The difference in quality is usually difficult to detect.
I use carbon steel wrenches as well as the fancy alloy stuff and until they wear out the precise qualities of the base metals barely matter.
And for my experience there are brands and styles I prefer not to use. Others swear they are hands down the best.
So is there really a best/perfect/ one for everyone tool?
No, just a lot of candidates for us to choose from. Add in exotic metals or composite material mixes just makes it more interesting.
I would want the light weight factor first and if affordable and easily replaced when worn, it makes them practical.
just because you can ,doesn't make it easy , it's just not easy, tig welding is not an easy process to master by itself , chamber welding makes it even more difficult and much more expensive ... trail purge and other helping artifacts sure don't make it easier just possible .
btw , any discoloration is a weld defect ! easy as pie !
so what exactly are you trying to say here? it's easy but it's not ...
if it's not exactly easy (sometimes it brakes ) than it's NOT EASY !!!
Sure is easy when you know what alloy you're using , what about when you don"t? didn't think of that, did you?
A lot of people think they can weld TI because it welds nicely. Even contaminated welds make really nice looking full penetration welds. However, the welds have almost no strength.
Yes you do have to know the alloy. Some of them are unweldable.