Why aren't the manufacturing jobs coming back ?

[flkeysdude]

Here's an interesting link...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...ng-back/ar-BBAyp2Q?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Perhaps this is posted in the wrong forum, however, the overall concept is the same. This issue seems to raise its ugly head on a regular and recurring basis. Manufacturing has moved out of the country and overseas due to the high cost of labor and related benefits. The American worker is unable to live on the wages paid to workers in undeveloped countries such as Vietnam and Bangladesh. Even China is experiencing the same issue as the cost of wages and benefits are cutting into their profits. This also happened to Japan, Thailand, etc. AI (artificial intelligence) and robotics are taking a toll on all workers. Bottom line is if you want the quality of something made in the US and you want to support the American worker...you need to expect to pay for it. Don't be a hypocrite. You can't knock the cost of a high quality American made tape rule (or tool, for example) and then buy a cheap black and yellow import knock off from the end cap at Home Depot...

 

[jallyn]

Automation is reducing the number of people needed to produce a product. Why don't we all work as farmers anymore? Technology. And people don't complain about how efficient modern tractors and combines are. They just adapt to the new reality.

I work for an automation company. Do I hate robots? No. I have nice tools and fix everything myself at home. And someone has to install, program, and maintain the automation equipment we make. Things change, and quantity of people working in manufacturing is a poor measure. We have fewer farmers now than ever, making more food than ever. Technology reduces human effort.

 

[tarbellb]

No, we should totally bring back some mfg jobs. These guys are stoked!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZWXFhdeOjMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[md21722]

Yup, 100 years ago if you wanted to have a textile mill in the Carolinas you hired 1,000-2,000 workers and they lived in a company town with a company store. Today those jobs are in Bangladesh. The mills that are coming back are highly automated and staffed by about 100 people.

 

[PMD1966]

Worked in a stamping plant for one of the Big 3 from 1966 until 2011. When i started, it took at least 25 people to make a fender. When I retired, the number of people required had dropped to 4 or 5. Transfer presses and automation did most of the work.

 

[T45]

I'd still rather have those 4-5 jobs be in the USA than shipped offshore.

Journalists as a rule are **** economist and know very little about manufacturing or production operations. They "report" which means they tend to regurgitate whatever is fed to them by whatever special interests wants to get out their PR messae via the reporter's employer

Caveat emptor, and kilo of salt, and all that...

 

[Packard V8]

Yes, the American workers, like workers everywhere, have been screwed by globalization.

But then many of those who could have had a good job have screwed themselves. I have friends who own small-to-medium manufacturing companies. The number one problem is trying to find, hire and retain workers who will show up on time five days a week and then can pass a drug test. Good wages, good benefits and even that's not enough to get them there every shift. Then, given not-so-subtle hints about when the "random" test will be and guys still fail peeing in the cup.

jack vines

 

[finn]

We had a crankshaft line that was staffed by 60 people back in the 1980s.

When the line was retooled the same product was produced, with tighter tolerances and less scrap, with only three workers.

Those jobs aren't coming back, and anyone that says they are is either a fool or a liar.

Or maybe both.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Those jobs are not coming back. How can these guys call themselves conservatives expecting government to hand them jobs at high wages with little production? Welcome to 2017.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Unfortunately, in many cases even if a product is made in USA the quality has also fallen in the name of profits.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Yes, the American workers, like workers everywhere, have been screwed by globalization.

But then many of those who could have had a good job have screwed themselves. I have friends who own small-to-medium manufacturing companies. The number one problem is trying to find, hire and retain workers who will show up on time five days a week and then can pass a drug test. Good wages, good benefits and even that's not enough to get them there every shift. Then, given not-so-subtle hints about when the "random" test will be and guys still fail peeing in the cup.

jack vines

Globalization hasn't screwed "American workers". Globalization has made everyone wealthy in all measurable metrics. People are just complacent and lazy. Period.

 

[T45]

Those jobs are not coming back...Welcome to 2017.

There is a huge difference in returning production lines and returning specific "jobs"....those production lines should be returned...even if the jobs are modernised and automated...because the political economy considerations mean that capital investment is tax base...those infrastructure jobs building roads and what not to the factory....those logistics jobs moving product around...tooling and quality assurance...there is loads of reason to keep production onshore and not sell out the country.

Bitching about job descriptions and numbers is missing the forest for the trees. The forests should be kept onshore. The trees themselves need be tended and cared fore, but without a forest there is no trees...

 

[jd_1138]

It's hard to compete when we're talking about a country, China, that basically puts little value on human life, morals, the environment.

We can vote with our dollars, though, and buy quality USA/Canada made tools and products (if you can find them in certain categories).

Take my knucklehead neighbor for instance. The dude made a nice living in the UAW primarily in a management/support position, bought a nice house, has a comfy retirement, put his kids through college. However, every 2 years he goes down and leases 3 brand new small Kias for himself, the wife, and their 20 year old daughter who still lives at home. His attitude is: "screw the new generation; I got mine!" Sure, it's his right to buy what he wants, but it's kinda ****** IMO. There'd be 3 Cruzes in my driveway were I him.

Meanwhile, GM produces the excellent Chevy Cruze 10 miles away. It's the area's largest employer and supports many more jobs than just the thousands of jobs at the factory itself. I think for every 1 worker at the factory, 5 other workers in other industries are supported.

I've never been in a union, but we've mostly bought UAW cars. We currently have 2 that we bought brand new.

 

[jd_1138]

There is a huge difference in returning production lines and returning specific "jobs"....those production lines should be returned...even if the jobs are modernised and automated...because the political economy considerations mean that capital investment is tax base...those infrastructure jobs building roads and what not to the factory....those logistics jobs moving product around...tooling and quality assurance...there is loads of reason to keep production onshore and not sell out the country.

Bitching about job descriptions and numbers is missing the forest for the trees. The forests should be kept onshore. The trees themselves need be tended and cared fore, but without a forest there is no trees...

 

[racinfarmer]

Automation is reducing the number of people needed to produce a product. Why don't we all work as farmers anymore? Technology. And people don't complain about how efficient modern tractors and combines are. They just adapt to the new reality.

I work for an automation company. Do I hate robots? No. I have nice tools and fix everything myself at home. And someone has to install, program, and maintain the automation equipment we make. Things change, and quantity of people working in manufacturing is a poor measure. We have fewer farmers now than ever, making more food than ever. Technology reduces human effort.

How many people do you know that grew up on farms and were either pushed away by their parents for a better life (or "better life") or left on their own because they didn't want to farm mom and dad's quarter?

Technology has sped up that process, but in the end, many left the farms because they didn't want to farm, didn't see a future in it, or wanted to cash out on mom and dad's lifetime of love.

 

[openwheelracing88]

There is a huge difference in returning production lines and returning specific "jobs"....those production lines should be returned...even if the jobs are modernised and automated...because the political economy considerations mean that capital investment is tax base...those infrastructure jobs building roads and what not to the factory....those logistics jobs moving product around...tooling and quality assurance...there is loads of reason to keep production onshore and not sell out the country.

Bitching about job descriptions and numbers is missing the forest for the trees. The forests should be kept onshore. The trees themselves need be tended and cared fore, but without a forest there is no trees...

Agree. I would love to bring manufacturing back. However, for every highly automated manufacturing line that requires only 5 workers, there are 400 applicants expecting high wages and full benefits. It is time people move on and stop being so lazy expecting jobs to come to them. We are not just losing manufacturing jobs to China, we are losing the high tech jobs automating those same robots because our own are still living in parents basement playing video games, while the parents are attending Make America Great Again rallies expecting jobs find their way into their basement.

 

[dnschmidt]

This man is a genius ^^^^^^^^. Not to be political but anybody who believed Trump could change the evolution of human history was/is a *****.

 

[oldtools]

Yes, the American workers, like workers everywhere, have been screwed by globalization.

But then many of those who could have had a good job have screwed themselves. I have friends who own small-to-medium manufacturing companies. The number one problem is trying to find, hire and retain workers who will show up on time five days a week and then can pass a drug test. Good wages, good benefits and even that's not enough to get them there every shift. Then, given not-so-subtle hints about when the "random" test will be and guys still fail peeing in the cup.

jack vines

https://www.google.com/search?q=wor...P-IIu8jwO5n4eoDw&start=0&sa=N&biw=360&bih=574

 

[M_George]

I agree with the "Buy American" aspect. There are still tool manufactures here, you just have to look for them. Your usually just spending a few extra bucks, but your getting a good reliable tool in return.

 

[M_George]

So future manufacturing will have robots. People can adapt to that. I started out in electronics working with vacuum tube circuits, went to transistors, on an on till now I manage the company IT network.
Building and maintaining those robots sound like good jobs to me. There's a lot precision there. How about the programmers that right the code they need to run?

 

[PelicanPines]

I agree with the "Buy American" aspect. There are still tool manufactures here, you just have to look for them. Your usually just spending a few extra bucks, but your getting a good reliable tool in return.

Agree... I even agree with assembled in USA from global parts.

What's never going to happen is things made in China for 90 cents an hour, and that's TOP pay there, suddenly coming BACK to the U.S.. there are no incentives possible ...

Automate one hundred staff out of a job to hire ONE US employee and you are getting closer.

 

[LAROKE]

Technology is driving us towards cataclysmic change. Neither the right or left have answers for this. Everyone's job or profession will be taken over by AI and machines.

 

[Dave455]

There are a lot of issues here, probably beyond the scope of this forum, but here in the U.K. we have quite a few specialist factories turning out various gizmo's and the one thing you notice is how the number of employees have reduced over the years.

The only reason for that is automation. As late as the 1970's a firm producing a certain 'widget' that needed several machining operations would have a machine for each operation, and each machine would have an operator. Not now - same factory, similar number of machines, but now just one programmer and maintainer (on good money) and a couple of guys loading materials and emptying bins!

So, there's still plenty of scope for manufacturing, but you do need to move with the times, unless you are making small numbers of something quite 'niche' that needs craftsman at most stages!

Unfortunately, the biggest danger seems to be American management. Now I know that the majority of this forums readers are American, and they are patriotic folks, but worldwide, American managers don't have a good reputation. I could show you any number of British firms, ranging from the thriving to the struggling, that have been taken over by Americsn firms, and instantly trashed, their British factories closed, their British workers made redundant, production outsourced, and the product usually ruined as well!

This somewhat dubious strategy gives a few years when you can sell shite based on a once good name, then that usually gets dropped too, and everybody moves on, somewhat like the aliens in 'Independence Day'!

One might be tempted to say 'you wouldn't behave like that in your own country'.. except that they do!

 

[T45]

We are not just losing manufacturing jobs to China, we are losing the high tech jobs automating those same robots because our own are still living in parents basement playing video games, while the parents are attending Make America Great Again rallies expecting jobs find their way into their basement.

Have you preices the massively expensive real estate inflation in the past 35 years?.

That has nothing to do with lazy millenials, It has everything to do with greedy speculators and de-regulators. All those people benefitting from offshoring are driving up real-estate pricesin major cities.

Don't blame the suckers gettign screwed for not being able to afford homes in all the places like california where h1bs for engineers, offshoring of normal production blue collar jobs, and illegal immigrats flood of lower class blue collar jobs...

A bit absurd to think that millenials living in houses that are trading at 6-10x average wages are simply being lazy.

For 100 years you could not borrow more than 3/x into your home for a morgage without alot of hassle. Now in places as diverse as UK, Australa, Japan, and Lot o the USA...people are in huge debts for real estate no matter what kind of job the hae or have not....

 

[ssdave]

Lots of factors in loss of jobs, and many of them are social. People not willing to learn a manual job and work their way up is one. When there was a substantial work ethic and people that were hired tried to learn and do a good job, there was less risk to starting up a business. Today, it's much easier to outsource production than it is to assemble the capital, find a location, and hire workers to produce things at home.

I live in a rural area that has a huge low income and unemployment problem. One of the results of that problem is that there is a lack of high quality housing available; the existing housing is being allowed to run down because of lack of funds to maintain, and new construction is limited. However, there is a fairly high demand for better houses. A fully functional, well maintained home brings top money in the local market if it comes available. The obvious answer is to build some new housing, the prices being paid for good housing would support new housing costs.

The problem is that there is a huge deficiency in skilled labor available. Huge unemployment problem, but no one that is willing or able to learn and accomplish a trade. A typical example is drywall work. The local contractors bring in crews from a larger town 120 miles away, because they can't hire laborers locally to hang drywall. Same with concrete crews; the few concrete companies have to work with unskilled labor or the work is contracted out to out of town crews.

The whole problem has to be solved holistically; there has to be a willingness to buy domestic products, companies have to invest in the facilities to produce the product, cities and counties have to accept the facilities in their area, regulatory agencies have to permit the operations, and the american population has to be willing to staff those facilities and produce a high quality product at a suitable production rate to make the venture profitable.

 

[bczygan]

I don't care!!! I hope they never come back!

Live the life that's possible, in the world that you have, instead of bemoaning what was.

Personally, I am so glad that those dangerous, menial factory jobs are going away. I've worked them, and never would again. Wouldn't wish them on anyone.

In fact, I hope the third world countries get automated, so THEY don't have to do them.

Humans deserve higher and better uses.

Bill

 

[bcradio]

Why is this thread 2 pages long already? Do people here think they have it all figured out or something?

 

[4 FN 27]

Manufacturing Jobs??? We have openings and absolutely no one with any skill set seeking those positions. No one.

We get resumes from all over the US and the world and none of them are eligible to work in the states. They are looking for sponsors.

If we do get an American worker inquiry they have ZERO skills. Yesterday we got an on-line app and the applicant skill set was he has experience with Toilets, Urinals and Bidets. The ad states Class A Sheet Metal Brake Press Set-up and Class A Turret Set-up positions open.

If manufacturing does pick-up in the US the only problem will be there is no one here to do it.

 

[bmxdad]

Something I don't think has been mentioned ... profits. The amount of Profit that an manufacture expects to make on a certain product will need to drop. It's that attitude of quick profits that are maximized that has been the bane to the US worker.

Remember when you could be at a company for life? Remember when they had tons of cash on hand? Well, they used that cash to float through the slow times or to develop new product. Now a days, if a company has a lot of cash, people scream that it should be distributed out to the share holders ... which they do, then the slow down comes and the company can't cover costs, so they let people go, so they go offshore for the quick profit and on and on and on ...

If a company could be happy with a modest profit and growth, then they could bring some of the jobs sent offshore back in. But until that "Greed for Profits" changes, it'll be tough to bring anything back ... but there's plenty off opportunity for new things, like solar. It would be fantastic for the coal mining communities to bring in green energy. They wouldn't be making the big money some were making, but it would be a comfortable living, one that would be there for a long time.

 

[TorKe]

Something I don't think has been mentioned ... profits. The amount of Profit that an manufacture expects to make on a certain product will need to drop. It's that attitude of quick profits that are maximized that has been the bane to the US worker.

Correct. Businesses don't flourish from giving jobs to Americans only.

They succeed when the shareholders are happy from high profits - moving the work overseas where the labor laws of the US more than likely don't apply to the foreign country.

People seriously thinking bringing back mfg. jobs to the US will happen at all are on some other universe where capitalists aren't the winners.

I'm not for or against mfg jobs coming back, I'm just saying it's very unlikely - not something a business wanting profits would want to do.

 

[Hagatronics]

This is just the start. Artificial intelligence will soon take white collar jobs too (e.g. accountants and lawyers). They too are process oriented and replaceable.

People often say the industrial revolution added to human prosperity as an reason not to worry about automation. That might be true, but it kinda sucked for horses; which humans are in this equation.

 

[bmxdad]

Manufacturing Jobs??? We have openings and absolutely no one with any skill set seeking those positions. No one.

We get resumes from all over the US and the world and none of them are eligible to work in the states. They are looking for sponsors.

If we do get an American worker inquiry they have ZERO skills. Yesterday we got an on-line app and the applicant skill set was he has experience with Toilets, Urinals and Bidets. The ad states Class A Sheet Metal Brake Press Set-up and Class A Turret Set-up positions open.

If manufacturing does pick-up in the US the only problem will be there is no one here to do it.

Train them ... don't you have any apprentices? Bring them in washing toilets to see if they know how to work, then give them to a journey level operator for training. Teach them your companies way of doing things. You'll find out that, that type of worker is worth more then anyone from outside. Least, that's my experience in the Machinist field. I had two apprentices over a 6 year period and they were good operators when they left my area. One of the best things to come out of unions was the apprenticeship programs.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Yes, the American workers, like workers everywhere, have been screwed by globalization.

But then many of those who could have had a good job have screwed themselves. I have friends who own small-to-medium manufacturing companies. The number one problem is trying to find, hire and retain workers who will show up on time five days a week and then can pass a drug test. Good wages, good benefits and even that's not enough to get them there every shift. Then, given not-so-subtle hints about when the "random" test will be and guys still fail peeing in the cup.

jack vines

Spoke to a friend last week who works in manufacturing.

Their plant needed 30 workers for a few months' long temporary employment.

After much posting and searching, the Temp agency they were using to find people found 12 likely candidates. That was all they could find.

After interviews, 10 of the candidates were offered employment.

6 of the 10 failed their pre-employment drug screen.

4 started working, but after 3 days, 2 of them had already quit.

What do you do?

 

[bmxdad]

Don't forget, unemployment is at an all time low, so there isn't much out there to choose from.

 

[T45]

Spoke to a friend last week who works in manufacturing.

Their plant needed 30 workers for a few months' long temporary employment.

After much posting and searching, the Temp agency they were using to find people found 12 likely candidates. That was all they could find.

After interviews, 10 of the candidates were offered employment.

6 of the 10 failed their pre-employment drug screen.

4 started working, but after 3 days, 2 of them had already quit.

What do you do?

don't *****...train them for fulltime jobs

in general we have labour shortage because no training...everyone wants a perfecet emloyee made from scrtch or trained at the expense of the employee or the previous employer

30 years ago businesses created alot more skilled labour forces in house....nobody went to university to become a blue collar worker...

now it seems the employers want a laundry list of prefab or precise experience before they will even talk or hire anyone, then they complain when the employee has not invested in a job they don't have or may only hold for 60 days...

you 10x the wage of course you will get "skilled" people coming out of the woodwork.

just shows that skills are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Infinia]

This isn't a new problem in any Industrialized society. Really folks study the history books.
Read about what happened in New England 1920s then Detroit 1970's. Japan in the 1990s, etc. So inbetween the boon wars years and crashes from Wall Street speculators the factories in any industry typically leave towns in search of lower wages bout when the bulk of the old workers reach retirement age 30-40 years later.

 

[-Brent-]

Yes, the American workers, like workers everywhere, have been screwed by globalization.

What Jack says here is true. Obviously, for many whom are paying attention, there's a lot of anti-globalism sentiment in the US at the top of our Govt. I've read about the same coming out of candidates in France's major political races, too. This has been the sentiment for some smaller countries for a while.

The thing I am curious to see is how this all shakes out. I feel like we're all so tied to one another now that backing away from globalization is not likely to happen.

 

[sberry]

I was doing a plant setup, they were having trouble with workers, someone came along with the brainfart to p test them for weed to save 5 cents an hour on insurance, lost all the best.

 

[-Brent-]

Don't forget, unemployment is at an all time low, so there isn't much out there to choose from.

I think those numbers are really skewed since the measurement, itself, is imperfect. The number of folks in the Labor Force vs the number of unemployed net the unemployment rate. However, there are several ways to exclude people from Labor Force and those excluded are not considered a participant and therefore not counted.

The rate that the BLS and the media shares is the U-3, the rate that doesn't share the true unemployment rate due to exclusions. U-4 includes "discouraged workers" (Discouraged workers desire work and have actively looked for work in the past 12 months, but they have not looked in the last four weeks because they don't believe there is work available for them due to economic conditions or other reasons.)

U-5 includes the people represented in the U-4 rate and the folks that haven't participated or searched for a job in the last four weeks. They drop off quickly.

And U-6 is the truest compilation of unemployment numbers. It includes U-5 and discouraged and underemployed workers and other participants whom are the periphery of the labor market. U-6 rate provides a view of the much broader range of the market reality.

 

[4 FN 27]

Train them ... don't you have any apprentices? Bring them in washing toilets to see if they know how to work, then give them to a journey level operator for training. Teach them your companies way of doing things. You'll find out that, that type of worker is worth more then anyone from outside. Least, that's my experience in the Machinist field. I had two apprentices over a 6 year period and they were good operators when they left my area. One of the best things to come out of unions was the apprenticeship programs.

We have those programs...get me somebody who wants to clean toilets...get me anyone who is eligible to work in the states and will look at this opportunity as a career and take what we offer and run with it.

We offer Blue Print Reading Classes, last session 3 of 10 dropped out. They still work here but have no opportunity for advancement since they don't want to learn how to read print. And they are OK with that...???

We offer education assistance. Only have had 2 people take us up on that. Both moved up through the company and have desk jobs. But they are older. I haven't seen a younger aggressive person come in here and ask what they can do to climb the ladder in 20+ years. Times have changed.

Not all hope is lost. We are working with the local schools and I think the pendulum is starting to swing the other way. Industrial Tech programs are coming back. I figure about 25 years too late. There will be a big gap to fill in about 10-15 years when all of old salty dogs start to retire.