Why Bother With SAE?

[ibedayank]

work on older British motorcycles
whitworth and sae No metric needed

 

[jim1987]

And the thread goes on and on and on and on

 

[Buckgnarly]

I use SAE when I fab stuff....bulk fasteners at TSC supplies most of those. So I guess the other question is who uses or even sells bulk metric fastners?

 

[Skidonenko]

Lol, my grandfather gave me a double box end witworth wrench after i picked up a 2000 enfield.

Me "Only my pliers and cresant's fit these bolts"
Him "here ya go"
Me "the f... Is this?"
90 mpg outof that thing was not enough to make up for how much i had to wrench on that thing.

Having worked at Ford dealers and now working on forklifts both are needed.

 

[kiatech]

As an electrician I hardly ever see metric.

 

[wmartin]

I have friends working in europe on aircraft and they have no issues getting sae. Stahlwille and gedore have aviation sets that are almost all sae with very few metric

Yes. Airbus will have a few metric fasteners but the standard for aviation has been set. Aviation requires standardization especially in commercial aircraft. Many carriers use contract operations to handle major inspections, these shops handle airbus, boeing, embraer etc... and are located around the world. Speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Lots and lots of money has been dumped into the testing and approval of aircraft fasteners, connectors, lines, hoses, and fittings. There is no such thing as a simple change.

What about NASA and military rocketry?

 

[jjjrmx5]

Sure, but...

The world is also using metric (ISO) as standard. SAE only appears in North America. Think about the poor ******* who have to fix your SAE plane in Europe.

I use SAE tools to remove rounded or rusty metric fasteners before the extractors come out.

Well, I gues if we (the USA) had lost World War 1 or World War 2, then this conversation would be mute, wouldn't it? LOLOLOLZ

METRIC FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I;m well aware of what the "rest of the world uses", and due to global manufaturing of goods and equipment, many things are chaging over to metric fasteners with some moving faster than others.

Designed a museum in Guatemala where we did all the design and architectural plans in metric, but then , when built, all of the materials in that country are sold via feet and inches , 2x4 lumber, 4x8 sheets of plywood, manily SAE fasteners, etc. It's what is only available via vendors and retailers in that country. So all the Construction Mgrs are constantly converting back and forth from plans to materials.

it was an unbelieveably arduous process.

So life is not so "clean and simple" when it comes to tools and mechanics in many places of the world.

Buy what you need, but don't "expect" it to always be what you assume it is.

 

[cptn_zippy]

I have friends working in europe on aircraft and they have no issues getting sae. Stahlwille and gedore have aviation sets that are almost all sae with very few metric



Yes. Airbus will have a few metric fasteners but the standard for aviation has been set. Aviation requires standardization especially in commercial aircraft. Many carriers use contract operations to handle major inspections, these shops handle airbus, boeing, embraer etc... and are located around the world. Speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Lots and lots of money has been dumped into the testing and approval of aircraft fasteners, connectors, lines, hoses, and fittings. There is no such thing as a simple change.

The only exception I've run into is the nanchang cj-6. It's a chinese warbird trainer copied from a yak. It is all metric down to the rivets and sheet metal gauge. Complete pita trying to find replacement hardware that meets a standard I'm willing to put into an aircraft.

I'm sure there are manufacturers outside of the U.S. that is using metric, but there are no metric fasteners, that I'm aware of, that meet the federal code for use in aircraft certified anything but experimental. There are small cases where special certifications are given to certain parts or pieces but wide usage is not something that will happen anytime soon.

Thanks. Very interesting. I'd bet 90 percent of average Joes would guess they are metric. (Myself included!)

J

 

[BK13]

That may be, but this is kind of a silly place to come and talk about how to get by with the least amount of tools

no kidding. Apparently, the OP just needs to pick up a set of Metrench tools and leave GJ to people who LIKE tools.

 

[kered]

Well, I gues if we (the USA) had lost World War 1 or World War 2, then this conversation would be mute, wouldn't it?

Going a little Off Topic here, but I feel I must......

While it was undisputedly of massive & indeed pivotal benefit that the U.S. were involved in both WW's & arguably, without U.S. involvement, the outcomes could have been much different.

I feel compelled to point out that the U.S. alone, did not win either war, there were many other nations involved, without whose involvement, the outcomes could have been similarly, very different.

One need only watch some of the coverage of the commemorations this past Friday, of the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings to see what & who was involved in that operation alone.

 

[Gmonkee]

In the used market around me SAE stuff is a 10 to 1 ratio over metrics. So easy to find quality brand used and at good prices that having a passable set should be easy even on a tight budget.
No need to break the piggy bank on prestige brands unless your OCD demands it.

I use newer metrics and older SAE by choice, being a weekend warrior I don't need the newest and finest anymore.

 

[espyking83]

Going a little Off Topic here, but I feel I must......

While it was undisputedly of massive & indeed pivotal benefit that the U.S. were involved in both WW's & arguably, without U.S. involvement, the outcomes could have been much different.

I feel compelled to point out that the U.S. alone, did not win either war, there were many other nations involved, without whose involvement, the outcomes could have been similarly, very different.

One need only watch some of the coverage of the commemorations this past Friday, of the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings to see what & who was involved in that operation alone.

People never remember the Russians.

 

[jjjrmx5]

Going a little Off Topic here, but I feel I must......

While it was undisputedly of massive & indeed pivotal benefit that the U.S. were involved in both WW's & arguably, without U.S. involvement, the outcomes could have been much different.

I feel compelled to point out that the U.S. alone, did not win either war, there were many other nations involved, without whose involvement, the outcomes could have been similarly, very different.

One need only watch some of the coverage of the commemorations this past Friday, of the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings to see what & who was involved in that operation alone.

I'm sorry kered, I did not in ANY way mean to discount the role other countries played in either of those two wars. Or any other.

I was staying "toolcentric", meaning that since North America is mainly the "last bastion" of SAE tooling and fastener use worldwide, that WE, as the USA would not likely be using the SAE system we currently use would teh war or wars came out differently.

And yes mate, you did get off topic but I do understand your point. And it is one I VERY MUCH agree with and understand.

But again, this is a tool forum, not bbc.co.uk, thus I try and keep what I post to tools.

Cheers.

 

[tshetter]

What about NASA and military rocketry?

Very interesting question. Anyone have an answer?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Very interesting question. Anyone have an answer?

They have proprietary sizes like 6.235mm and such so people can't sabotage the millions they put into it. Snap on makes them!

 

[A_Pmech]

Very interesting question. Anyone have an answer?

NASA works in imperial.

Military rockets still use AN, MS and NAS hardware and materials.

 

[Nick Danger]

People never remember the Russians.

When I was in school, nobody taught me about the Russians. That's probably true of all Americans. It wasn't until recently I've learned facts like this: on D-Day, there were 150 German divisions on the Eastern Front and 66 divisions on the Western Front. It wasn't even close. I'm disappointed in my teachers.

Link.

 

[toolmutt]

Sure, but...

SAE only appears in North America.

Coincidentally, I only work in North America.

 

[bonneyman]

Thankfully, the HVAC industry has resisted going to metric until recently, so, my old SAE tools are still useable at work. Though, metric is creeping in more and more all the time.

Working on the work van is another story. It's almost a hybrid, with both SAE and metric stuff intermixed throughout. I just wished they'd make up their stupid minds and just go all metric on domestic cars and get it over with.

With my apprentice, I'm stressing him having more metric tools than SAE. Just because of the world he will go out into. I recommend him having one good set of SAE wrenches and sockets, but then secure several sets of metric stuff as his budget allows.
In all likelihood he'll use metric more, but, until he picks a career field, he should keep his tool options open.

 

[maddawg1952]

My Harley-Davidson Motorcycle is still mostly SAE. Then again it's a 1998 FLSTC

 

[jjjrmx5]

When I was in school, nobody taught me about the Russians. That's probably true of all Americans. It wasn't until recently I've learned facts like this: on D-Day, there were 150 German divisions on the Eastern Front and 66 divisions on the Western Front. It wasn't even close. I'm disappointed in my teachers.

Link.

My father taught High School advanced placement world history and American history for 35 years. Yes, most of it was imparted to me thru summer trips or even daily family meals. LOL.

He was a Korean War vet and spent much of his "tour" living in England as a USAF stenographer and it is where my older sister was born.

Lord knows I have more world history books laying about than ANY of my neighbors x 100 as a result of "hand me downs".

Good teachers = hard to find these days. Don't I know it.

Now back to tools.

 

[kered]

jjjrmx5 if there was a "pat on the back" or a "man hug" icon available to use, I'd use it here.

Instead, this will have to do.....

 

[BikerDad]

When I was in school, nobody taught me about the Russians. That's probably true of all Americans. It wasn't until recently I've learned facts like this: on D-Day, there were 150 German divisions on the Eastern Front and 66 divisions on the Western Front. It wasn't even close. I'm disappointed in my teachers.

Link.

Nobody ever taught me either, but I learned all that stuff before I was out of Junior High. Perhaps, rather than being disappointed in your teachers, you should aim your disappoint at the man in the mirror. I learned that the Soviet Union signed an agreement with the Third Reich to divvy up Poland, an agreement which both sides followed up on, thus initiating World War Two in Europe. I also learned that the Soviet Union subsequently invaded Finland, an act that got them kicked out of the League of Nations. I also learned that it was the Soviet-Japanese Non-Aggression Pact, signed in April 1941, that gave Japan the opportunity to attack the United States, the British Empire, Australia, etc...

The Soviet Union was an aggressor during WW2.

oh, and bother with SAE because when you need to put together a swingset for your kids, all the fasteners will be SAE.

 

[Hogtown]

Going a little Off Topic here, but I feel I must......

While it was undisputedly of massive & indeed pivotal benefit that the U.S. were involved in both WW's & arguably, without U.S. involvement, the outcomes could have been much different.

I feel compelled to point out that the U.S. alone, did not win either war, there were many other nations involved, without whose involvement, the outcomes could have been similarly, very different.

One need only watch some of the coverage of the commemorations this past Friday, of the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings to see what & who was involved in that operation alone.

Thank you. America hasn't won a war in an awful long time...maybe Spanish American was the last. Afganistan/Iraq, Vietnam, Korea weren't wars and we haven't done too well in any of them. WWII was won by the Allies, not by America. Its too early in the morning, I can't remember who the oppents were in WWI. My father was in WWII and he pretty much always refers to Allies. We have gotten sloppy with our language.

 

[Canadian Charlie]

When I got my first car (72 Cuda) back in the early 80's when I was 17 the fasteners were all SAE, then a few cars after that it was still SAE and then I bought my first NEW car a 1989 Chevy SportSide that was a half SAE half Metric. My tool collection has grown as time went on, if I have one drawer of SAE wrenches then I have 2 drawers of Metric wrenches. Sockets are half SAE and half Metric.

Nowadays I'm using 90% metric tools and 10% SAE

 

[Matt_C]

I only have one imperial sized tool in my kit, and that's a Snap On double ended ratcheting wrench with 1/4" and 5/16" box ends - and all that's used for is for restricted access using 1/4" screwdriver hex bits and 8mm hex bits (since 5/16 fits 8mm perfectly). Everything else is metric, from wrenches to sockets, screwdriver bits, allen keys/wrenches - even my flat-blade screwdrivers are labeled as metric!

I do have a box set provided by my company that's an "all drive" set; a 3/8 drive ratchet, with a bunch of sockets that are supposed to fit both metric and imperial, as well as whitworth, spline, etc. It's rubbish, and I've used it maybe twice, doing old MG cars that pre-date metric.

 

[t100]

company supplies all the tools for my work, so I don't give a flipping fack about it.

for personal use, I have both.

don't forget, most of the shop equipment is still standard.

 

[Outlawmws]

What about NASA and military rocketry?

Very interesting question. Anyone have an answer?

NASA works in imperial.

Military rockets still use AN, MS and NAS hardware and materials.

Space programs, commercial or Gov, at least us based Space Programs, are SAE fasteners almost entirely. Parts/chassis are also designed Imperial as A_Pmech said. Some few specialized connectors of internal payload items may have some metric, bur not much metric is seen. (Unless they made the changeover in the past 10 years... doubtful)

 

[panknuckshovel]

I am sure that with what you guys run into working as mechanics, until standards are set in place for monkey rigging you are going to need both SAE and MM.

 

[Tejaas]

I have friends working in europe on aircraft and they have no issues getting sae. Stahlwille and gedore have aviation sets that are almost all sae with very few metric







Yes. Airbus will have a few metric fasteners but the standard for aviation has been set. Aviation requires standardization especially in commercial aircraft. Many carriers use contract operations to handle major inspections, these shops handle airbus, boeing, embraer etc... and are located around the world. Speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Lots and lots of money has been dumped into the testing and approval of aircraft fasteners, connectors, lines, hoses, and fittings. There is no such thing as a simple change.



The only exception I've run into is the nanchang cj-6. It's a chinese warbird trainer copied from a yak. It is all metric down to the rivets and sheet metal gauge. Complete pita trying to find replacement hardware that meets a standard I'm willing to put into an aircraft.



I'm sure there are manufacturers outside of the U.S. that is using metric, but there are no metric fasteners, that I'm aware of, that meet the federal code for use in aircraft certified anything but experimental. There are small cases where special certifications are given to certain parts or pieces but wide usage is not something that will happen anytime soon.

Well worded, sir.

To expand slightly on your "aviation requires standardization" comment above, another great example is the almost exclusive (nowadays) use of the English language worldwide in flight ops. What started as an ICAO "recommendation" has pretty much become the internationally adopted standard.

Also, an example of "special approved circumstances" for deviation from SAE hardware on American air/rotorcraft can be found on the M230 Chain Gun we run on our Boeing AH-64s. Disassembly requires a 4mm & 5mm hex socket (constant speed drive cover plate), a 10mm flex head ratcheting wrench (used to manually lock/unlock/cycle bolt) and a 23mm socket (used for drag torque checks on the ammunition transfer housing)...

Other than those 4 metric tools, my rotorcraft (Boeing/Sikorsky/Bell) box is all SAE.



~Tejaas~

WTB: Snap-On Orange Hard Handle SSDP63 in Very Good Condition!

 

[Tejaas]

People never remember the Russians.

That's not entirely true.
Germany will NEVER forget the Russian advancement on Berlin, or the occupation afterwards.


~Tejaas~

WTB: Snap-On Orange Hard Handle SSDP63 in Very Good Condition!

 

[aaronrkelly]

I wrench at home and your right, mostly metric - however I still come across standard stuff fairly often.

My kids bicycles are enough of a reason to keep SAE around - all your dept store bikes are **** these days.

 

[mechanicalmoron]

If you don't have both, you're not qualified to touch either...

I have my paired-down sets, like what I carry in my car, with ONLY select metric sizes that appear on my car. But there's nothing more frustrating than screwing up your tools AND whatever you're working on, and still not getting the job done fully or properly, because you don't have a real set of tools.

People neet to get over the phobia of american (OR metric) sizes. We live in a world with both, they're not going anywhere any time soon, and if they do, I'll be quite angry, I don't want to be out in the cold every time I want to fix something that's not brand new.

Yeah, new cars are usually metric.... so how about when you work on an old car? How about when you just see fit to use SAE, or vice versa? How about when you use what you have, or when you're working on something and find that the LAST guy used what he had? Go tell your boss you can't fix something simple, because somebody used a standard bolt size but you only have half a set of wrenches, because you're too cool and modern to do things right and be prepared?

Besides, it's all abritrary anyway, SAE has more confusing names, so I guess if you're not smart enough you can label your wrenches SAE1, SAE2, SAE3..... etc. Then WHAT will the difference be, in reality? The world's not always broken into neat blocks, deal with it, bolts are just the start.

 

[rider9195]

I just started work at a Buick GMC dealer. One guy saw me open my wrench draw and he said, might as well take those SAE wrenches home with ya.

Haven't came across any yet, but only have been working on brand new vehicles mostly.

 

[86k10]

I think this topic comes up once a month. Same response as the other times.

 

[joejeep92]

I still have SAE in 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4. They don't come out as often as my Metrics but not everyone out here in farm country drives a brand new vehicle...

 

[kams1973]

I think this topic comes up once a month. Same response as the other times.

While we're at it, why don't we hash out another 6pt vs. 12pt discussion?

 

[Hammell]

Do new mechanics even bother with SAE/standard/inch tools anymore?

All modern automobiles are metric. Most new lawn and garden equipment is metric (at least mine is). The only time I use standard tools is when I score an old piece of equipment at an estate sale.

If you were building a new tool kit would you even bother with SAE (until you actually needed it or were into older cars)?

My truck is a 1975, f250 camper special. Yes, SAE is good to have. Not everyone drives a new truck. A shop that turned away cars n trucks that were sae on whose business they depended on wouldn't do well id imagine.

 

[e30bradley]

unfortunately allot of the trucks I work on are sae.. 3/4 ton diesels up to 18 wheelers. Lots of wood chippers too.. I feel like I'm starting out again having to buy loads of sae stuff now.

 

[Allenw]

I have both, nothing to pull a metric headed bolt and find it has SAE threads when you go to replace it.