Why Bother With SAE?

[larry_g]

If you don't have both, you're not qualified to touch either...

Some do live up to their user name.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Lance-AR]

So it seems the Harbor Freight 5-drawer tool cart requires a 1/2" wrench and socket?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

So it seems the Harbor Freight 5-drawer tool cart requires a 1/2" wrench and socket?

13mm :-D

 

[Danguitarman]

Do new mechanics even bother with SAE/standard/inch tools anymore?

You're a damned citizen of the United States of America! Don't let the evil metric system take over! Take pride in our bassackwards ways!

 

[KnurledNut]

They have proprietary sizes like 6.235mm and such so people can't sabotage the millions they put into it. Snap on makes them!

Wouldnt that be close enough for 1/4" SAE?

 

[BikerDad]

You're a damned citizen of the United States of America! Don't let the evil metric system take over! Take pride in our bassackwards ways!

Yes, let's adopt a measuring system cooked up by the same people who brought to the world The Terror. What could possibly go wrong?

Seriously, the metric system suffers from a deep flaw, a different flaw from the Imperial/SAE.

Halvesies. Metric doesn't do well with it. Life would be soooooo much simpler if we had 3 fingers and a thumb, then our "metric" sytem would be based on Base 8 rather than Base 10, halvesies would be a piece of cake. Bestest of both worlds.

As for "bassackwards ways", such a declaration carries with it a demonstrably false assumption that progress is always good.

 

[Danguitarman]

Yes, let's adopt a measuring system cooked up by the same people who brought to the world The Terror. What could possibly go wrong?

Seriously, the metric system suffers from a deep flaw, a different flaw from the Imperial/SAE.

Halvesies. Metric doesn't do well with it. Life would be soooooo much simpler if we had 3 fingers and a thumb, then our "metric" sytem would be based on Base 8 rather than Base 10, halvesies would be a piece of cake. Bestest of both worlds.

As for "bassackwards ways", such a declaration carries with it a demonstrably false assumption that progress is always good.

Don't get your ******* in a bundle. I was speaking tongue-in-cheek. I fully support SAE. My little bit of annoyance comes from the fact that I spent a year and a half fabricating transformers from metric plans, after converting them to sae on the fly. (I wasn't going to spend 300 bucks on a Starret metric square set lol)

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

I'm 26. I grew up mostly using metric tools. When I was in school they tried to teach us how to measure in metric both
Length, weight, etc but gave that up after a year. I find metric tools easiest to use because they're whole numbers. Bicycles take metric Allen's. I was a bike mechanic for many years and never used an SAE Allen. I work on cars all day long now and besides for stripped or rusted bolts or larger (7/8) nuts/o2 sensors, I don't use SAE, I always grab a metric. But there's no way my tool box would be without SAE tools.

 

[beatcad]

I do want to side w/ bikerdad.

SAE is great and not outdated. it can be fractional or decimal. it's how we've done it for over a hundred years.
yes. the metric system does make sence(base 10).
****! my teachers back in the 70s said it was the future....they also said pluto was a planet
you gotta have every tool just in case. I don't see me ever owning another pre 70s british car or motorcycle, but I will keep a few whitworth wrenches in my box. will I need it myself or help a friend work on his stuff...I dunno?
I was a boy scout. 1st rule is to always be prepared.

 

[Jwych]

I am a semi trailer mechanic and I think i've used my metric set of wrenches maybe one time

 

[Outlawmws]

Wouldnt that be close enough for 1/4" SAE?

6.235mm = 0.24547

Ya think?

 

[wildbill23c]

Its weird the past couple things I've bought at Harbor Freight...Where everything is imported has more SAE fasteners than US made stuff WTF.

 

[Wakefield]

Don't let the evil metric system take over!

Seems like the car companies have figured out to sprinkle a few non metric hardware in there to keep the metric hardware from taking over.

 

[Adam.C]

Respectfully, I think you guys are completely missing the point. If you were starting a tool set today, to work on MODERN automobiles, the question is, would you buy SAE tools or WAIT UNTIL YOU FOUND A NEED?

My opinion is that the days of working on cars with a set of craftsman sockets and wrenches are long past. So it's not so easy to say get metric and SAE of every tool. To work on modern cars you need a lot more "specialty" tools- I highly recommend swivel sockets, I like semi deep sockets in addition to shallow and full deep. I recently bought some low profile sockets. I have stubby, long, long ball, std and std ball end allen sockets (excessive), 0 degree box wrenches (XDHRMs), ratcheting combination wrenches. I'm considering flex head ratcheting box wrenches.

Would you buy these tools in metric and SAE sizes intially? How about impact sockets? Are there enough SAE fastsners on modern cars that are accessible with an impact gun to warrant a set of SAE impacts? I vote no. Buy these tools in metric only. A set of 3/8" SAE sockets should probably be in every mechanics tool box. But I would stop there until I found a need. All I have in my box for SAE is 3/8" shallow sockets, allen sockets, and a set of ratchet combination wrenches. Everything else is metric. Now I don't work on Jeeps, or old merican stuff or quad bikes. Modern domestic, and import passenger cars.

 

[jim1987]

The real question is how do know your 5/8 bolt isn't really a 16mm and your 14mm bolt isn't a 9/16? Ya, nobody really mics that stuff.

 

[bsaint]

My dad uses SAE all the time. I use metric with my machinery, and when I make stuff, I use metric hardware because I have metric tools.

 

[Justanoldguy]

What really gets me is how an OP throws the line over side of the boat and waits patiently for the fish to bite. Never bothering to check the line at any time. Fish anyone??

 

[srmofo]

It all depends on what you intend to work on, doesn't it?

Many machines are still being dimensioned and detailed with SAE.

not to mention all of the tools like pullers, fittings, etc have standard sizes.


Then you find the cars where someone has attached something aftermarket with standard size.

Plus its like 8 more sockets/wrenches to the collection to be fully covered in any situation

 

[Giddyup]

When I started out my tool kit consisted of predominantly SAE or AF. As time went on I had to top it up with metric... sockets, spanners, specialty sockets & spanners So not only is there SAE/AF & Metric but also Whitworth, why would there be a third measurement for spanners, I blame the British . So now after 30 something years I have a huge tool kit that has Spanners, Sockets (inc specialty sockets) modified spanners and double ups just for that special occasion in all size ranges.... and still growing if needed
Does it sound like I am complaining, not in the least, I reckon a mechanic has to have the right tool for the job, it doesn't matter if you work on aircraft, trucks, plant, cars, motorcycles or lawnmowers.

 

[Dust Devil]

I use both.

 

[Larch]

Actually, a lot of boat motors, four wheelers and snowmobiles still use SAE. Some small engines do too. Plus if you own any old cars, trucks, tractors. I use Sae more than metric. Probably because my Toyota's and Subaru don't break down very often. I do have a 1989 S10 that uses metric, but they are mostly ones that crossover closely.

 

[wmartin]

Respectfully, I think you guys are completely missing the point.

I think the question is whether it's a real poncho or if it's a Sears poncho.

 

[Dan Jacobs]

Question for you A&P guys: Are airbus planes metric or SAE ?
JUst curious

 

[nesw20]

the engines i deal with are mainly metric, but the machines they go in are typically exclusively SAE.

 

[WWIIjeep]

Question for you A&P guys: Are airbus planes metric or SAE ?
JUst curious

Answer from page 2 of the topic:

I have friends working in europe on aircraft and they have no issues getting sae. Stahlwille and gedore have aviation sets that are almost all sae with very few metric



Yes. Airbus will have a few metric fasteners but the standard for aviation has been set. Aviation requires standardization especially in commercial aircraft. Many carriers use contract operations to handle major inspections, these shops handle airbus, boeing, embraer etc... and are located around the world. Speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Lots and lots of money has been dumped into the testing and approval of aircraft fasteners, connectors, lines, hoses, and fittings. There is no such thing as a simple change.

The only exception I've run into is the nanchang cj-6. It's a chinese warbird trainer copied from a yak. It is all metric down to the rivets and sheet metal gauge. Complete pita trying to find replacement hardware that meets a standard I'm willing to put into an aircraft.

I'm sure there are manufacturers outside of the U.S. that is using metric, but there are no metric fasteners, that I'm aware of, that meet the federal code for use in aircraft certified anything but experimental. There are small cases where special certifications are given to certain parts or pieces but wide usage is not something that will happen anytime soon.

 

[gagreen]

What about NASA and military rocketry?

NASA and military rocketry will follow milspec for any hardware used. I have personally never seen a milspec fastener in metric. I worked on F-117's F-16's and F-22's and not a hint of anything metric involved in any of those. If anyone knows of a metric milspec fastener source or if it is even a thing I'd love to hear as I need some metrics for the chinese plane I mentioned in an earlier post. PM me please if you have information.

Thanks. Very interesting. I'd bet 90 percent of average Joes would guess they are metric. (Myself included!)

J

Yeah it's a culture shock for the automotive guys making the switch and going through an A&P school.

Question for you A&P guys: Are airbus planes metric or SAE ?
JUst curious

The only metric I've heard murmors of on airbus or other newer commercial aircraft are in non structural positions such as avionics and entertainment systems. It is not a popular thing among the aircraft maintenance community as it can mean an extra run to a tool crib if your in a fod controlled facility or buying more tools for those who have a required tool list. Aviation changes extremely slowly because of the expense of switching from an imperial bolt that has already met certification and has a long track record of reliability in aircraft use.

Switching over to metric and setting a standard of production such as the current an and ms would cost millions if not billions by the time it all trickled down. We are talking setting up the tooling to manufacture, building an infrastructure to inspect and enforce standards, reequipping the aircraft plant with metric drill bits, sockets, wrenches, and precision measuring equipment. The madness does not stop there, to get the aircraft certified around the world every country would have to accept these standards and investigate them, the airlines operating these planes would have to invest in all the same tools that the manufacturer switched to, the mechanics would have to add tools. In many places this would mean the company coming out of pocket with an allowance for mechanics to add the new tools that would be required of them. Not to mention the fact that most aircraft are riveted together. Now we add in the expense of adding more rivet sets, cutters, and stock to every single repair station willing to service a metric aircraft. The overall cost of making a switch on a large scale production aircraft would be immense to say the least.

Now to speak of longevity. Aircraft are built with extremely long service life. Speaking of general aviation (private aircraft with propellers) a metric aircraft will an extremely high cost of operation. Aircraft hardware is expensive anyway but if one manufacturer went metric parts would be a nightmare to come across. Finding metric hoses and fittings with FAA certifications would be rare as everything else is imperial. A certified aircraft must use parts approved by the feds. I've spent over 300 dollars of a customers money on a nose seal that .005 oversized, when a regular non oversized is about 35-50 bucks. It's just a round piece of rubber with a spring around the inside, but that FAA certification is expensive. General aviation aircraft also serve a much longer life than automobiles.

I work 6 to 7 days a week and have not had a certified aircraft newer than 1978 come through the hangar. Lots of newer homebuilt aircraft or experimental tho. Builders that choose to use metric anything suffer much higher costs of operation as they try to cheap out on the build by using hardware from the store down the road. They don't hold up and generally fail inspections regularly in my experience. Some of the small engines used in light sport aircraft are metric and those poor guys get nickle and dimed to death when they need to special order a fastener where as the guys using imperial based engines can likely order any fastener from a number of sources and get a much better price. The metric guys have very few sources (most unreliable small operations in over their heads) for any replacements.

There is no upside to switching aviation to metric. Anyone who has trouble with fractions will have a rough time trying to make it in aviation. A&P's are required to take a math course (very easy math course lol) and are tested on it before they can become a licensed tech.

 

[MagnumForce]

I know some Aircraft techs... the test can't be too hard if you catch my drift....

 

[top drive]

meh- old land rovers .....

its spanner lottery most of the time.

it could be Metric , imperial or whitworth - depends what was lying on the factory/billy bobs repair garage floor that day.

i inherited alot of my imperial and whitworth spanners off my grandad when he stopped spannering on land rovers.

i also work in oil industry - alot of out grub screws come specced as imperial hex - especially tools designed out of the USA. Our europe based designers seem to like metrics. whats more worrying is the number of field techs i meet who dont know the difference and persevere with the metric set trying to take out imperial bolts and vice versa.

 

[Richym76]

My shop only works on new-ish Vw audi's. Never used sae for years


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[TAMPAGT07]

No SAE means less tools. Unacceptable.

This........This is like starting a thread, "Should I only date blonds, or brunettes?" You can have them both..The more the merrier....

 

[48RON54]

between work & my hobbies I will have to continue to carry both

 

[thewatusi]

This........This is like starting a thread, "Should I only date blonds, or brunettes?" You can have them both..The more the merrier....

Yes, however there aren't tools that pass themselves off as Metric but when you tear off the packaging you find out they're really SAE.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

Yes, however there aren't tools that pass themselves off as Metric but when you tear off the packaging you find out they're really SAE.

Very true....

 

[NFH2740]

Farm equipment is becoming mixed. Many US made implements still use SAE hardware, but my German made Deere 7950 is all metric. One can do just about thing to it with 14, 15, 18, 30 and 32 mm tools.

 

[Allenw]

Farm equipment is becoming mixed. Many US made implements still use SAE hardware, but my German made Deere 7950 is all metric. One can do just about thing to it with 14, 15, 18, 30 and 32 mm tools.

And if it's built in true deere fashion it will take all 5 wrenches to get the alternator off plus at least ons sae wrench just for good measure.

 

[veks]

between work & my hobbies I will have to continue to carry both

Same here. I design and do prototypes using SAE hardware, but when I work on my Honda it's Metric.

 

[Advan]

Really? That's great to hear then. I'm ready to stock up to 32mm.

I'm a union millwright, and I don't bother carrying carrying metric wrenches, save for a 10mil ratcheting combi. (those always come in handy!) I carry 1/4 to 1-1/4, and that makes my box so friggin heavy I can't imagine having to carry the metric equivalents at the same time. All that being said, you do run into metric quite often (installing european and asian equipment) but the contractors usually have an assortment of mm wrenches on hand. If I find out on the first day of the job we'll be doing a lot of metric, the next day I'll probably bring some select wrenches in, but certainly not all of them.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Every one of your respondents will have a varied tool need for the equipment that THEY work on.... My work requires metric and sae tools up to 1" drive and a host of specialized tools that the majority of the forum members would have no use for... My tool purchases are custom tailored to suit my needs.

Being that I lack any knowledge of your skill levels, budget, or actual need for tools; My advise or comments would be useless to you, or could lead you to purchase some tools that would likely never be used...

Basic tools are easy enough to locate and purchase... If you simply buy tools as the needs
arise; your question will answer itself and you will end up with the tools that you actually need.

 

[Kin Creed]

Ariens Snowblower bought 2 years ago... SAE.

Windsurfing gear made in Hawaii... SAE threads and everything measured in inches and feet. You get funny looks if you talk metric.

Windsurfing gear made in Europe... metric threads and everything measured in cm and meters. You get funny looks if you talk inches.

 

[durallymax]

You really cant get by in life without both. If you only work on Jap or Euro cars at a dealership you might be fine, but eventually you will run into an accessory or something that is SAE.

But then you will need torx, torx plus and XZN at a minimum.

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