Why do most prefer LED over T5 bulbs?

[ticklechicken]

I've been studying here to get lighting info for my 1,080 sf shop, and I mostly only see LED lights on this forum. We have a new lab at work that's about two years old. Now that I'm paying attention to lights, I looked closely at the what was installed. I liked the lighting. They were Philips F28T5/841 T5 bulbs. Here are the quick stats:

• 2900 lumens
• 28 watts
• Efficacy = 104
• 4100K
• 85 CRI
• $5 each

It appears that you can get a generic version of this T5 for $3 per bulb.

These have similar stats and are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of LED tubes. Why aren't they more widely considered for shop lighting on this forum?

 

[CJ7VFR]

It all comes down to what you want. Some say that LED's will outlast other types of bulbs, so they install the LED's to save time down the road having to re-place burned out fluorescent bulbs. That may also save money on constantly having to buy replacement fluorescent bulbs if they burn out a lot.

Some say LED's save on electricity costs over other types of bulbs, so they install the LED's to save money on that.

One of the biggest things is that if you buy the LED bulbs that do not require a ballast, you don't have the hassles of fluorescent bulbs when they start to flicker, or won't come on at all, and you have to spend money replacing ballasts or entire fixtures.

Some like the fact that LED bulbs come on instantly bright, where as in a colder room, fluorescent bulbs will take awhile to get full bright. And in really cold places, like unheated garages and sheds, the fluorescent bulbs might not come on at all.

Some people swear that the LED bulbs put out better/brighter light than equivalent fluorescent bulbs. This one is sometimes based more on opinion than anything else.

The cost of the LED bulbs is coming down, but they still cost more than traditional fluorescent tube bulbs. You have to look at your overall costs for having either type of light installed to see if you will get any return on your investment by installing one over the other.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to what each individual person wants at any given time.

Jim

 

[LX-Markham]

Was wondering the same thing. I outfitted my shop with T8's because I couldn't justify the added costs of the LEDs. The payback period would have outlasted me.

 

[DakotaMan]

I actually use T8 bulbs. I'm not sure if it's color or what but I generally do not like LED bulbs...including for flashlights. I simply cannot see...too much glare?

 

[cybrdyke]

I've been studying here to get lighting info for my 1,080 sf shop, and I mostly only see LED lights on this forum. We have a new lab at work that's about two years old. Now that I'm paying attention to lights, I looked closely at the what was installed. I liked the lighting. They were Philips F28T5/841 T5 bulbs. Here are the quick stats:

• 2900 lumens
• 28 watts
• Efficacy = 104
• 4100K
• 85 CRI
• $5 each

It appears that you can get a generic version of this T5 for $3 per bulb.

These have similar stats and are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of LED tubes. Why aren't they more widely considered for shop lighting on this forum?

2 lamps of the F28T5 uses 60 watts. Maybe 1 or 2 more.
F28T5 lamps are BRIGHT. Almost annoyingly so. In low ceilings, or grid ceilings, you wouldn't normally find exposed T5's.
Hence, they are typically covered with a center basket when installed in a recessed troffer. Are yours done this way? Let's assume so...
The basket acts as a reflector, bouncing light back up into the troffer and then out. This reduces fixture efficiency greatly. Center basket troffers are only about 70% efficient, although better ones are available. If you look at it that way, you are only getting 2030 delivered lumens (x2 = 4060) for 60 watts. or 67.6 lumens per watt. YMMV.
LED can outperform that on it's worst day. A similarly sized and styled LED troffer would use between 35 to 45 watts, depending on the lumens you choose. It would probably be dimmable from the factory. It would have a usable life of about 100,000 hours.
There are still plenty of places where fluorescent light is the best choice. It's good to have choices.

 

[Radix2]

Maybe I didn't look close enough, but when I look at fixtures for a particular output - around 5000lm for my shop or 20,000lm for the garage, I didn't see a big savings if selecting from the Diva, James, Lithonia level of products to go with fluorescents over Leds.

Just looking at bulbs and strip light mounting doesn't tell the picture.

 

[aka Larry]

Was wondering the same thing. I outfitted my shop with T8's because I couldn't justify the added costs of the LEDs. The payback period would have outlasted me.

Same here. I love LEDs, but the price difference was huge when I built my shop.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Are T5s instant on? If not, I wouldn't consider it.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Are T5s instant on? If not, I wouldn't consider it.

They might be a bit faster than the other types, but if it is cold in the area where they are installed, then they can take some time to get to full light output.

Jim

 

[ticklechicken]

Good replies. Thanks.

Our new building at work is supposed to be very eco-friendly. They spent a ton of money to get the green tax breaks. That's why I was surprised to see T5's instead of LED's.

I haven't looked into ballast or fixture costs yet. I was posing this question before I looked. The fixtures in the lab are hanging from the ceiling. They are mirrored and hold 3 bulbs each. The fixture has a few louvers perpendicular to the bulbs that block direct viewing of the bulbs from extreme angles. If you're near the fixture, you have a direct view of the bulbs.

I'm in Florida and the my shop is spray foam insulated pretty well, so I'm not worried about the cold. Flickering and humming would really annoy me though, but I believe that's really only a problem with T12's.

 

[American Locomotive]

The local university just built a $70 Million Chemistry building (opened 2016), and it's almost entirely lit with dimmable T8 fixtures. T5 and Modern T8 bulbs in modern high-efficiency troffers/fixtures are still competitive with LED in terms of efficiency.

There are a lot of things to considering when choosing lighting in large projects. Design, efficiency, cost, and durability. Serviceability is a big one, too. If a fluorescent bulb burns out, you just replace the bulb. If the ballast fails, usually you take off a few screws and replace it. If an LED fixture burns out, you often (but not always) have to replace the entire fixture. In some situations, that could be a complete nightmare, especially if a lot of stuff was put in around the fixture after it was installed.

I already see problems in regards to serviceability, especially since a lot of new building designers seem to be treating LED as infallible. Well, that same university has an outdoor garden, with these nice LED edge-lit etched glass walls partitioning it up. Well, 5 years later and about 1/4 of those LEDs have failed. You'd basically have to rip apart the entire wall to replace them. Whoops.

 

[ddawg16]

Give it a few more weeks.....the LED's will be cheaper.

 

[cybrdyke]

Good replies. Thanks.

Our new building at work is supposed to be very eco-friendly. They spent a ton of money to get the green tax breaks. That's why I was surprised to see T5's instead of LED's.

I haven't looked into ballast or fixture costs yet. I was posing this question before I looked. The fixtures in the lab are hanging from the ceiling. They are mirrored and hold 3 bulbs each. The fixture has a few louvers perpendicular to the bulbs that block direct viewing of the bulbs from extreme angles. If you're near the fixture, you have a direct view of the bulbs.

I'm in Florida and the my shop is spray foam insulated pretty well, so I'm not worried about the cold. Flickering and humming would really annoy me though, but I believe that's really only a problem with T12's.

Sounds typical. T5 is efficient enough, usually, to meet any government requirement for efficiency in order to get tax breaks, rebates, etc.
Are your 3 bulb fixtures operated by 2 switches? The reason I ask is because it would be pretty uncommon to have a 3 lamp T5 ballast. More likely, there would be a 2 lamp ballast and a 1 lamp ballast. This would give you dual-switching of the lamps. Another good thing for the tax breaks.
Since the fixtures have mirrored reflectors, efficiency will be higher than I previously guessed. You're probably closer to 85% or more.

 

[JohnnyK81]

I plan on buying about 7 of the 2x T8 48" fixtures ($20 CAD or so Canadian) and some T8 bulbs. Then when those go, removing the ballasts and using the bypass LED's. But the fixtures for the T8's are cheap enough that I will start with those.

 

[RWorth]

I'm going to do something with mine soon. right now I have regular florescent 2 bulb fixtures, there are 12 of them in my 26x40 shop.

My issue is age related, I do a lot better outside than in my shop. Even on an overcast day I can read small print outside and can not inside.

Half of my shop, 14x40 is 12' ceilings, the other half 12x40 Is also 12' but I have hung the fixtures at the 7' mark. They are on chain so I can raise them if need be, but they are lower normally .

I'm not crazy about spending a ton of money, but I will if I need too.I do have the money I just have problems parting with it.

What would you guys suggest? Fixtures? How many?

Oh, the shop is not heated for the most part, I do have a heater I use if it's really cold out there, but most of the time I just dress for it.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I'm going to do something with mine soon. right now I have regular florescent 2 bulb fixtures, there are 12 of them in my 26x40 shop.

What fixtures? 4', 8', T8, T12?

For fine work I have three 8' double T12 fixtures in about 100 SF. This is probably WAY more light than you have, but it might be what you need.

 

[Bert_]

Everyone has their own preferences, but I actually prefer fluorescent lighting over the majority of LED's out there.

Many fluorescents can come very close if not equal the efficacy of LED's. I have seen some high bay type LED fixtures that have an input power of just a few watts less than they fluorescents they were supposed to replace. Most modern fluorescent lamps produce at least 90lm/w with several options now over 100 lm/w. Many LED fixtures, even high quality ones, aren't much over 100lm/w, some maybe in the 110 range.

Maintenance can be a factor, Good LED fixtures can have a life expectancy of 50,000 100,000 hours, however most of the cheaper fixtures from home depot/costco and the like have a life expectancy of more like 35,000 hours, not to mention much worse efficacy. Most common T8 lamps have a rated life of 20,000-30,000 hours, longer life lamps are available, up to 80,000 hours, though they do come with substantially more cost. T5 lamps can be around 40,000 hour life. You will save maybe a couple lamp changes, and lamps are like $2-3 each. What happens when the led fixture reaches end of life? I have not seen any parts available for LED fixtures.

LED lighting does have some advantages, such as "instant on" meaning there is no warm up time. They also should not have problems in cold weather that certain types of fluorescent lights can have. Using the right fixture for the application will minimize these problems.

I guess the person purchasing lights for their shop must determine if these small advantages are worth a 3-5X increase in price

 

[Schmoke]

You said you prefer fluorescent over LED, then wrote three paragraphs explaining how LEDs were superior!

 

[tailshaft56]

My last shop I had t5 fluorescents. planning on building a new shop and will be using LED. While eventually I plan on heating and cooling the shop that will probably be down the road do to You guessit! BUDGET. It seemed to me the t5 had low life spans probably do to cold temps. not an issue with led.

 

[matt_i]

I like both, the LED-tubes are great general purpose light. The T5HOs are my favorite task light in specific spots.

The T5HOs do have a warmup time but not too bad and don't seem to flicker in the versions I have, but the LEDs are marvelous being instantly at full illumination.

I've yet to find the lifespan of either, that will probably shape the next round of decision-making. To provide flexibility I'm going with all plug-in fixtures so its "plug and play" when that day comes.

 

[Bert_]

QUOTE=Schmoke;6369529]You said you prefer fluorescent over LED, then wrote three paragraphs explaining how LEDs were superior![/QUOTE]

I took some time to look up some hard numbers and add them to my post. Hopefully you can see the point I was trying to make...

I don't think I have to prove to anyone why I prefer Fluorescent lighting over LED lighting, the same can be said about those who like old tools and equipment. I just want to share some facts so others can make their own informed decision, which is not easy with all the claims that anything LED is a gift from the gods.

 

[ctgoodman]

In my up coming build I will be doing LED. I hate the ballast, flickering, buzzing, long start up in the cold on fluorescent tubes. I'm working out a plan to assemble a 4400 lumen LED fixture for less than $40. Now I just have to see how many I need.

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

In my up coming build I will be doing LED. I hate the ballast, flickering, buzzing, long start up in the cold on fluorescent tubes. I'm working out a plan to assemble a 4400 lumen LED fixture for less than $40. Now I just have to see how many I need.

hi there neighbor! doing a build now, and looking at this combo for fixtures. 5K lumens at $33 per fixture

 

[tailshaft56]

The point of my last post was cold wreaks havac on the lifespan of fluorescent bulb and ballasts.

 

[ctgoodman]

hi there neighbor! doing a build now, and looking at this combo for fixtures. 5K lumens at $33 per fixture

Hello, neighbor.

Where are you ordering those from? I will definitely take a look. I have had great success already with the Hyperikon tubes from amazon. I have two of those that I did a ballast delete to a existing fluorescent fixture in my laundry with that have been great. They are double ended and I already have a small stock of those since I have several others in the house to do. For me I want to keep all the tubes on my property the same so I do not have to keep up with single ended and dual ended tubes.

I may PM you with some questions on your build. Do you have a build thread here?

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

i hear ya on keeping the bulbs all the same, and i'm sure those work great. i'm doing all new from scratch, so that price per fixture i posted is spot on. those are from ledlightingwholesaleinc.com ... no build thread, i don't have the time right now to do one properly. please feel free to pm me with any questions you have, and nice to meet you.

 

[RWorth]

I like both, the LED-tubes are great general purpose light. The T5HOs are my favorite task light in specific spots.

The T5HOs do have a warmup time but not too bad and don't seem to flicker in the versions I have, but the LEDs are marvelous being instantly at full illumination.

I've yet to find the lifespan of either, that will probably shape the next round of decision-making. To provide flexibility I'm going with all plug-in fixtures so its "plug and play" when that day comes.

I wired my shop originally with 4 quad outlets, one in each quarter of the ceiling switched from the man door. So all my lights plug in as well.

 

[RWorth]

What fixtures? 4', 8', T8, T12?

For fine work I have three 8' double T12 fixtures in about 100 SF. This is probably WAY more light than you have, but it might be what you need.

they are double 4' fixtures, the bulbs are marked F-40, which LED replacement bulb would I have to buy?

The only reason I want to change is my old eyes need better light. For those of you with good eyes, I never had a complaint with these, and my shop is not heated and I can't remember EVER replacing a bulb, and I think I built my shop in 2001. No idea how many hours I have on them, but they're pretty damn reliable.

 

[ambenz]

Getting older is no fun, including trying to see.
My fathers old hand me down florescent were problematic, but I kept replacing the bulbs and they got me by.
Then one day, I bought a LED fixture and it was like day light to me!
I could see what I wanted too!
I switched all my fixtures to LED, I still have a few florescents in storage because they work but there going to the garage sale pile.
Nothing beats seeing what I am doing...LED's help this old guy see!

 

[James-W]

Now that I am older I find that I don't work as much in my garage as I used to. I like the LED lights, and they do keep coming down in price so perhaps at some point in time they will be really cheap. But for right now at least, unless I start doing more work in the garage and using the lights a lot more than what I do, I really don't think it would an economically sound idea to replace the 12 CFL's with 12 LED's.

 

[RWorth]

Getting older is no fun, including trying to see.
My fathers old hand me down florescent were problematic, but I kept replacing the bulbs and they got me by.
Then one day, I bought a LED fixture and it was like day light to me!
I could see what I wanted too!
I switched all my fixtures to LED, I still have a few florescents in storage because they work but there going to the garage sale pile.
Nothing beats seeing what I am doing...LED's help this old guy see!

Like your Stang old man , I had a few of the old ones,65 coupe 289,65 ragtop 200, 69 Mach 1 428 SCJ, 70 Mach 1 351W, 70 ragtop 351W. Right now I have non, but I'm sure that wont last. I'm restoring my 65 F-100 right now, but I'm sure there's another Stang in the not so distant future.

 

[AntonLargiader]

they are double 4' fixtures, the bulbs are marked F-40, which LED replacement bulb would I have to buy?

So you have 24 T12 4' bulbs in 1000 SF, and assuming you're getting 2400 lumens from each one (maybe less if they are older) you have 57 lumens per square foot at best, before you factor in the loss of light against the ceiling and walls and so forth. The lighting designers will be able to give you a better number but I usually see them talking about getting maybe 70% of that to the ground, or 40 lumens per SF, which is in the middle of the range for general illumination but certainly below the task lighting range.

You want a substantial improvement, such as 100~150 and possibly more in task work areas.

 

[RWorth]

So you have 24 T12 4' bulbs in 1000 SF, and assuming you're getting 2400 lumens from each one (maybe less if they are older) you have 57 lumens per square foot at best, before you factor in the loss of light against the ceiling and walls and so forth. The lighting designers will be able to give you a better number but I usually see them talking about getting maybe 70% of that to the ground, or 40 lumens per SF, which is in the middle of the range for general illumination but certainly below the task lighting range.

You want a substantial improvement, such as 100~150 and possibly more in task work areas.

there are actually 4 sets of 4 doubles, so 32 bulbs. So should I buy LED to put in the existing fixtures or start from scratch? And what bulbs should I buy?

 

[yeldogt]

Think you have to try out and see what works best ... I could never work under the open T5's -- especially the 6 bulbs fixtures. They are so bright .. at least the fixtures I have seen.

The LEDs keep getting better -- still don't like how they dim .. and many are way too cold as are the FL. the the 2700's are OK

 

[prostreetamx]

I am installing tracks on my ceiling so I can swap to any light fixture in any location. I will install the tracks with a small space above and extra screws to the backing I already installed before sheetrock so I can hang 4' fixtures with chain from the track. I already have a bunch of track to receptacle adaptors and plan to use a combo of 4' fixtures and several different types of LED flood lights. I plan to run 4' LED shop lights but will try just 1 at a time to see if I like them. They make a lot of track mounted flat plate LED flood lights but they are pretty pricy at this time and not meant for 14' ceilings.