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Why does Snap-On continuously make people rage?

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CGarage

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China builds spacecraft, world class consumer drones and 110 inch HDTVs

But when it comes to making high quality steel - :headscrat


I agree. And I think the U.S. is a benefactor of the Chinese Industrial Revolution. Most of these tools that we buy in the U.S. they are producing for their domestic use. The Chinese then manipulate their currency valuation and then export to foreign markets at a much lower cost than domestic manufacturers can compete with.
 
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neophyte

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Do you mind elaborating a bit?
Are you saying engineers and scientists are unable to analyze the ingredients in steel? If so, read about the German company Krupp. How they made the best battleship armor for a century. But by WWII other countries - Japan, US, Britian, France, etc discovered their own ingredients and manufacturing techniques that not only equaled it but significantly improved on it?
Are you saying that Swedish steel - known for centuries as the very best stuff hasn't been replaced by technological advances so that the iron from from Australia, Brazil, China, Ukraine, Russia, India and
Canada - the 7 countries with the largest iron ore reserves - can't be all be equally used.
Are you saying that only Snap On has that "secret formula" that is best for sockets and no one else knows it, can discover it or improve on it? Are you saying a thing so simple as a combination wrench can't be reverse engineered and copied - even improved upon?
Are you saying that the Big 3 US auto makers are still the very best and Toyota BMW or Leyland can't ever catch up?
Are you suggesting the Apollo trip to the moon was the zenith of engineering and technology that has never been equalled or improved on?
I have no beef with Snap On. I have no beef with Snap On lovers. If you think they are the best, buy them. I'll be happy for you.
But please, please elaborate - with actual engineering and scientific facts, how Snap On can make tools no one else can.
And please don't tell me more opinions or that they are made with fairy dust and magic.
Steel is complicated.
There are various ways to purify steel to get the exact alloy that is wanted, and most “competent” steel producers are capable of many of those processes, but all of those processes cost money.
For any entity (ie. Manufacturer) purchasing steel, usually, the final decisions are made because of factors such as cost per pound (or probably cost per ton), as well as the steel producers ability to deliver steel on the schedule needed.
Manufacturers of small, “high value” items can afford to spend extra to get the exact steel they want, but large manufacturers of lower value items will usually accept steel that is “close enough”, if the price is better, and delivery more reliable.
As far as Sweden goes, before modern refining techniques were available, the Swedish steel had advantages because of the ore, which was low in Phosphorus and Sulfur, and therefore produced a better steel, more easily.
Sweden also invested a lot in technology to ensure their steel industry remained at a very high level of skill, in production techniques and alloys.
Certain other areas of the world such as the United States, and parts of Europe also invested heavily is the steel industry, both in facilities, and refining techniques, but the steel ores in different areas needed to be processed differently.
As for China, in modern day China, there are supposedly three or four steel producers that can produce “world class” steel, but those producers supposedly only want to sell large orders of steel, so the better Chinese made steel is usually only available to customers able to purchase large steel orders, which for tool manufacture would likely be entities like Stanley, and Apex tools, and maybe some of the large Taiwanese tool manufacturers.
Any other customers wanting access to the high end Chinese steel, would need to be able to split steel orders with multiple partners, or have connections to piggy back off of other steel orders.

As far as forging tools, and heat treating, while to a certain extent it may seem, and be “simple”, there are lots of variations in the way steel can be processed to produce different results.
How hot steel is heated before forging, and in what type of furnace, for instance, can affect the grain structure of the steel, as can the atmosphere that heated steel its in, since steel loses carbon to air as it sits in a highly heated state. This loss of carbon can then potentially affect final surface hardness, since steel depleted of carbon tends not to be easily hardened.
Some manufacturers like Snap-On use “cold forging” for certain tools like pliers.
The cold forging process requires the initial steel to be annealed, and then run thru a series of dies, that progressively shape the steel, allowing for a more precise final forging, but the process is supposedly expensive to set up.
Most sockets are actually cold forged nowadays though.
After forging, tools still need finish grinding of some or all surfaces, which depending on tool, and manufacturer, can be done with anything from an abrasive tumbler, or belt sander, to old fashioned grinding wheels, or precision bonded diamond wheels on a CNC setup.
Heat treating is another set, which could vary from companies that don’t bother (I think Torque Test Channel ran into one or two wrenches like this) to running the tools thru a continuous oven, or thru a liquid salt bath, or a vacuum heat treating oven, etc.
In addition to overall heat treating, induction heat treating or spot heat treating of certain areas of a tool are common for tools like jaws and cutting edges of pliers.
Extra hardening of tools can also be done by the use of case hardening treatments applied to tools before heat treating.
As far as platings go, some manufacturers just use nickel, and others use various types of chrome, or chrome over nickel, and as you mentioned, the applications of these platings is not always the same thickness.
These different plating thicknesses can then cause variations in tool tolerances, since many tool manufacturers produce both cheaper and more expensive tool brands, and the dies and cutting broaches are likely used for high end and lower end tools, with plating thicknesses likely causing differences in tool tolerances.

There are plenty of other possible differences as well.
 

CGarage

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Can't make a ratchet to save their lives. 🤷


Again, wrong.

Your post lacks worldly wisdom.

I am as picky as they come. I own Nepros ratchets, I think they are widely regarded as the most expensive on the market.

As an example, Astro Pneumatic makes a Nano series of ratchets that are made in China last I heard. Quality is great. I own 3 of them and I like them a lot, the long handle, and the small head and form factor.

I have even used these ratchets more frequently than my Nepros ratchets.
 

AEAdam

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China builds spacecraft, world class consumer drones and 110 inch HDTVs

But when it comes to making high quality steel - :headscrat
Oh they're a great group of guys. Get together with your friends, speak your mind, surf the internet. Hope your apartment building doesn't collapse due to poor steel quality. They make the best drones. Baby formula, drill bits, not so much.

While you are there, pick up one of those new electric cars. Don't forget the nomex suit.
 

zendriver

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Oh they're a great group of guys. Get together with your friends, speak your mind, surf the internet. Hope your apartment building doesn't collapse due to poor steel quality. They make the best drones. Baby formula, drill bits, not so much.

While you are there, pick up one of those new electric cars. Don't forget the nomex suit.
US needs China - China need US.

That’s a reality we can learn to live with or not.
 

Aaron_W

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What's wild about HF in the tool world, is the sheer variety in a retail setting.

I can speak mostly to automotive as it's my specialty, but there is nobody who is even competitive with them. Maybe a bigger parts store might have some options? Between ball joint presses, scan tools of varying power, impact extensions, fuel line disconnects, it's a lot.

Does Eastwood have brick and mortar stores or all online? Them and Northern Tool are the only two I can think of who are kind of in the same space as HF. Well Sears "back in the day" but that day is long past.

Not picking on anyone in particular, but this quote embodies what I think is one of the first reasons these people rage against SO. They're "missionaries" trying to convert us to their righteous way of thinking, instead of our own sinful ways.

That is a good analogy, kind of like people who go around chastising vices (there used that form of the word correctly for once :) ). Vices are there for pleasure whether that is having a couple beers after work, a line of coke, 6 hookers on your birthday, spending way too much / too little for a tool.

I would argue the "non pro" or whatever term has an easier time doing top quality work. No outside pressure to do a ****** job from everyone else around them. They are the single party responsible for parts quality, repair quality, inspection, etc.

I think this is an important thing many, including DIY'rs miss. In a pro environment there are efficiency issues that don't exist in the DIY realm. I mean the DIY'r also has deadlines, but they tend to be softer. I have to get the brakes done before Monday so I can get to work. Not the book says this is a 4 hour job, so I better get it done in 3 to stay off the bosses slacker's list or to make up for that job I'm getting stuck with that doesn't pay anything.


I have mechanical empathy as well but they sure as heck don't reciprocate. Both of my current vehicles were neglected resurrections.

Oh, they have feelings and will retaliate if those feelings are ignored. Cars are crafty little buggers, and they remember.

People not in the trades or are not more involved in the semi-pro DIY scenes tend to forget that quantity beats quality when you are starting out. When it’s your job, you absolutely need lots of stuff right away for as little as possible. That’s why so many newbies start with Craftsman, Pittsburgh, Husky, Ryobi, etc. I did it, every other machinist at the shop did it. Most serious people don’t just drop $10k+ on tools right out of the gate, though there are always exceptions. You got an entire career ahead of you to upgrade and splurge on exotic stuff and usually people understand that. It’s why I dislike so many social media people, they put it in everyone’s head that somehow it’s normal to have these massive tool hauls and spend thousands plus on high quality tools. It’s just not how things are done.

As to another observation, I have noticed that all of the field techs servicing our machines, the millwrights setting up the shop, and the maintenance mechanics are using more and more Pittsburgh tools. HF just seems to be having a good run for whatever reason. I don’t get it, but no one is forcing me to use their tools so I don’t judge. Same with Milwaukee. Service techs basically walk into the shop looking like a Milwaukee billboard. 😂

I started taking mechanic classes before Covid and there was a tool kit required, sockets, pliers, wrenches etc, really basic stuff, no power tools, readers. The school had the higher end things available, and it was just an intro class required before you could get into the higher level classes.
I already had everything required, but out of curiosity I ran the numbers at cheapest option Harbor Freight brands excepting the obvious junk, so mostly Pittsburg / Pittsburg Pro. Store brands (basically Rigid / Husky, I don't have a local Lowes) and then mid level name brands (Channel Lock, Carlisle, Crescent, Dewalt etc).

There was a huge difference even at this level, Harbor Freight came in at $50-60, Home Depot around $150, and the name brands were pushing $300.

A lot of people are baffled by HF's many brands, but I can very easily see how somebody could start with the low end and over time work their way up. They go all Pittsburg to get their basic essentials, then they get a little breathing room. Maybe add some nice to have tools or replace some of the crummier tools and go with with Pittsburg Pro or Quinn. Start making some money and start adding some Doyle and Icon.

That is how you build brand loyalty. People can say Icon is over priced, but for a DIY'r or a young person starting out, if HF took care of them at the beginning, they may be willing to "over pay" a bit if the tools do the job.

That is also how you get people to look down on the guys who are thousands of dollars in debt to the tool truck guy, while they are doing ok, without that debt. Until they wander into the tool truck to laugh at the fools, and think I've had a good year and this is a really nice ratchet...
 

dchawk81

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Me too, brother. Not sure where you are in life's amazing journey. I'm watching my 3, 20-something children go through it. My money aside, they blow everything they make. One lives in an apartment with his girlfriend. Its VERY tough to make ends meet. He's got an entry level factory job. A lot of other young people I know have so much debt, they feel defeated, no way they will ever pay it back so they don't even try to save to double up on payments.

For folks saying techs should "just save up and pay cash for tools", thats exactly like Marie Antoinette's response "let them eat cake" (if they have no bread). Completely out of touch with reality. All of our (american) kids are in debt. The kids who have no debt are said to be "priviledged" and are looked down upon in some circles. No interest, little money down, is an amazing deal for auto techs. Think of all the trades people who don't have anything like that.

For non US members, remember, US companies rarely supply tools. In Europe I think its far more common for companies to supply new people with company provided tools.
I'm fortunate in that I have a mortgage and that's it. I used to play with debt like it was nothing when I was an employee but then I started my business and wanted to do everything I could to help ensure success, so I cleared my debts (it was mostly just cars) and sold some things I figured I wouldn't need for a while if ever again.

I had to go in debt for my semi but I paid it off in just over 2 years. I hated the payment. The interest wasn't even that bad (6%) and the amount wasn't high, but I didn't like it on principle. Now I don't want debt ever again if I can help it. Not for another semi, not for tools, not for a car, not anything.

Freedom is better than toys. It's a lot easier to save for things when you don't have payments going out to a bunch of lenders and don't pay more than you have to for tools, equipment, and parts/supplies.

I'm not wealthy but I'm not broke. I don't work as hard as many are forced to work, and I don't have to run loads that I absolutely hate running. At least not yet.

I haven't paid credit card interest in over 8 years. I've yet to take out a repair loan as is common in this industry. I may still fail but it's been a little over 4 years and I've always shown a profit and paid taxes.

I buy Michelin virgin tires for my truck, to the tune of $6,000 a set so I know when quality matters. If I thought I needed a $200 ratchet I'd get one. My torque wrench was $500 almost 3 years ago and it's a basic break over. And it's not from a tool truck.

Every oil change I do costs me $350 just in oil and filters and I dropped $5500 on an SCR filter during the height of lockdown.

Spending money is not a foreign concept to me and it's bigger than ratchets and wrenches.

I may not wrench for a living, but some of my wrenching is to keep making a living.
 
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mreisner

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China builds spacecraft, world class consumer drones and 110 inch HDTVs

But when it comes to making high quality steel - :headscrat
And they lead the world in industrial espionage also.

I wonder if the same people that complain about Snap-on also complain about automated checkouts in the grocery store and Walmart?

State of our steel industry is nothing compared to decades ago, and if China wanted to get nasty we could very much be up shits creek without a paddle. I'm not saying that we have to be isolationist or anything but we also have to be practical. This is coming from somebody that had six Marine Chief engineers in his family on Great Lakes ore boats, including boats from Bethlehem Steel. There's a lot of competitive products from around the world and there's a lot of just outright dirty dumping from China too.
 
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Boogerman

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China builds spacecraft, world class consumer drones and 110 inch HDTVs

But when it comes to making high quality steel - :headscrat
Yes, they can make good steel.

However, the bottom feeder stores of the world aren't willing to demand that steel, and pay for it, so we're mostly stuck with the chinesium prevalent in the market, unless we're willing to pay a substantial premium for more.

It seems like the trend is a low end manufacturer (potentially Toptul or Tekton, Sunex from the reviews here) contracts for better stuff, and puts out a decent product with Taiwan or even China COO. Unfortunately, it seems that as soon as they establish a market base, they shift suppliers or lower specs, and chase the quality right back down to the bottom again. There was just a thread about Sunex doing that a few weeks ago.

I wouldn't blame the Chinese at all for the poor quality situation. I'd blame the cheap *** buyers that insist on the lowest price, regardless of how much the quality suffers to get there. And, the HF type companies of the world that pander to those buyers.

The Craftsman/Sears middle ground just doesn't seem to exist in a reliable, stable way anymore. For just a bit, companies do that, and then race for the bottom again.

To get off topic a bit, and respond to the "world class consumer drones". I just took apart a $16,000 China COO industrial drone today. I was puzzled at how cheaply made it was, and how there was essentially no thought given to durability and strength of the plastic parts. Like screws directly into plastic assemblies without a boss to reinforce, and pinch collets for assembly and adjustment of round items that were just a strip of plastic with two holes in it.
 
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2ndGearRubber

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Virtually anybody can save up and buy a $200 tool. A giant set of tools, perhaps not. But a ratchet? Come on. The remarks from the HF shills on this thread are getting more and more absurd.

I used to stop in to HF every now and then to try some of their offerings. Between the shills everywhere, the chitty machines (looking squarely at their poor excuse for a lathe), and the HF owner, I won’t be back.

Nah dude, millions of people in this country cannot save 200 bucks no matter how much they make. All that comes in, MUST go out as soon as possible.
 

JeepYJ

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Ahh, "legal". Lots of people on. GJ seem to think 15/hour workers have time to litigate their employers.
If you’re making $15/hour (and trying to save $200 to buy one single ratchet) and your employer tells you that you are responsible for thousands of dollars of tow bills and vehicle repairs because of something you may have F’ed up I doubt you’re writing a check to cover it or allowing them to garnish your wages for the next five years.
May have been the employers tactic to force that employee to quit? The employee ain’t ever gonna pay that money.
 

2ndGearRubber

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If you’re making $15/hour (and trying to save $200 to buy one single ratchet) and your employer tells you that you are responsible for thousands of dollars of tow bills and vehicle repairs because of something you may have F’ed up I doubt you’re writing a check to cover it or allowing them to garnish your wages for the next five years.
May have been the employers tactic to force that employee to quit? The employee ain’t ever gonna pay that money.

They start doing paycheck deductions. It's not hard, they just pick an amount and subtract it out per week. The easiest way is actually just time clock adjustments down. Not uncommon for businesses to do that regardless.

Most of it is bravado, either to create fear in employees or try to make them quit to ensure they dont pay unemployement. However I have seen with my own two eyes paystubs with hours/commissions/W2 wages reduced to cover damages. This is how business works, there's a ton of assholes running them just like there's a ton of assholes anywhere else.

That's just the world we live in. They lie about what they'll pay you in the interview, lie about training protocols, lie about how they want the job done then gaslight you into thinking you're wrong when you literally follow exactly what they want.
 
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dogdog

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Hoely fk this thread shifted topics…. Like the word boi mentions so many times and with and without fan in front, fluffy muffin(s) have no problems. Probably drank those delusional koolaid.
 

zendriver

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Hoely fk this thread shifted topics…. Like the word boi mentions so many times and with and without fan in front, fluffy muffin(s) have no problems. Probably drank those delusional koolaid.
This SO vs HF dead-horse has been beaten to a ******, smelly pulp.

Have to shift to something else to argue about.

  • Portuguese: In Portuguese, "boi" can refer to a steer, bull, or ox.
 

dogdog

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This SO vs HF dead-horse has been beaten to a ******, smelly pulp.

Have to shift to something else to argue about.
Yes, nvm zen, it’s for a specific muffin that had issues with me mentioning fan bois on a different thread and started his lunatic logic claims in a different thread cause he googled “boi” without fan. I am just poking it with a hot stick lol.
 

Mb4

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Hoely fk this thread shifted topics…. Like the word boi mentions so many times and with and without fan in front, fluffy muffin(s) have no problems. Probably drank those delusional koolaid.
Here, I’ll put it back on topic:

Snap-On makes some of the finest hand tools in the world. Harbor Freight makes lower to mid grade budget priced tools that are serviceable in many applications for DIYers or beginning mechanics that don’t have a lot of money to spend on tools. They are not, however, meaningfully comparable to Snap-On (and the price premium is accordingly higher). Despite this, many YouTubers who typically do not use these tools professionally make comparisons. Some of them are paid shills and others are sincere DIYers, but that’s about it.

In the real world, nobody who uses these tools rages about Snap-On unless they got screwed on the warranty or bought tools they couldn’t really afford.

There. That’s steers it back on topic and answers the question.
 

finn

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HF was a key tool I leveraged as a young mechanic to tool up. Not the best, not the worst. Okay some stuff was the worst, I had a few duds. But overall it gave me a lot of options, for not a lot of money. Most was eventually worn out and replaced, or upgraded version bought and the HF kept as backups and special use items.

You know what snap on doesn't make? Wobble impact extensions. You know who does? Pittsburgh Pro. It takes a village.
I have a few black phos coated SnapOn wobble extensions, both 3/8” and 1/2” drive. I always assumed they were impact rated, but who knows. Maybe they’re just industrial use tools.

Haven’t broken them yet, and I’d venture to say they’re normally my go to extensions, withe either a hand ratchet or an impact gun.
 

2ndGearRubber

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Again, wrong.

Your post lacks worldly wisdom.

I am as picky as they come. I own Nepros ratchets, I think they are widely regarded as the most expensive on the market.

As an example, Astro Pneumatic makes a Nano series of ratchets that are made in China last I heard. Quality is great. I own 3 of them and I like them a lot, the long handle, and the small head and form factor.

I have even used these ratchets more frequently than my Nepros ratchets.

Taiwan COO on those. Although I'm aware of the US "one china" policy. Most of the astro socket related stuff I can think of is Taiwan. I did look at a few products like air chucks which are Chinese. IDK my air chuck and nano sockets both work fine. I like the ratchets with the nano-head, but I did get the LONG 1/4 and what do you know it's too long to use very often.
 

CGarage

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Taiwan COO on those. Although I'm aware of the US "one china" policy. Most of the astro socket related stuff I can think of is Taiwan. I did look at a few products like air chucks which are Chinese. IDK my air chuck and nano sockets both work fine. I like the ratchets with the nano-head, but I did get the LONG 1/4 and what do you know it's too long to use very often.


I could have sworn the Nano ratchets were Chinese and not Taiwanese?

The long 1/4 is a special use tool, but when you need it, you will really need it!
 

dogdog

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Bought any "Milwaukee" batteries onlne lately?
Are you referring to those alternate brand batteries that fits the Milwaukee cordless ecology ? They are different from your thinking aboot it logic of “industrial espionage “ you do know the differences right? Logically

* it’s not one of those that you think about it and it is true situations.
 

2ndGearRubber

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I could have sworn the Nano ratchets were Chinese and not Taiwanese?

The long 1/4 is a special use tool, but when you need it, you will really need it!

TLLF72 lives in the cart, so I usually don't go to the box to find the astro. I've been changing up the ratchet layout a bit in the cart, and I'm considering both selling some rarely used ones, and moving stuff like that astro into the cart. I have a 9" proto 1/4 I don't love, and that astro might replace it. It feels so stupid/awkward to use though.
 

dogdog

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In the real world, nobody who uses these tools rages about Snap-On unless they got screwed on the warranty or bought tools they couldn’t really afford.
You mean the latest one that financed his large tool box and tools but when he rage quit his job, the snap on dealer told him he can’t take it with him. Scammy financial scheme to lock you in?
 

mreisner

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Are you referring to those alternate brand batteries that fits the Milwaukee cordless ecology ? They are different from your thinking aboot it logic of “industrial espionage “ you do know the differences right? Logically

* it’s not one of those that you think about it and it is true situations.
No I'm talking about the blatant knockoffs coming out of China that unless they get sent into Milwaukee when they fail most people never know what they are until they burn up, blow up or just quit. You know the ones that say Milwaukee right on them and even have very convincing packaging. If that's too deep of a concept for you just think swap meet Rolex. But then again that would entail using logic.
 
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Hakeem

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TLLF72 lives in the cart, so I usually don't go to the box to find the astro. I've been changing up the ratchet layout a bit in the cart, and I'm considering both selling some rarely used ones, and moving stuff like that astro into the cart. I have a 9" proto 1/4 I don't love, and that astro might replace it. It feels so stupid/awkward to use though.
I remember reading about your difficulties with the proto warranty. You seemed to like the ratchet at the time .. your feelings have since changed?
 

dogdog

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No I'm talking about the blatant knockoffs coming out of China that unless they get sent into Milwaukee when they fail most people never know what they are until they burn up, blow up or just quit. You know the ones that say Milwaukee right on them and even have very convincing packaging. If that's too deep of a concept for you just think swap meet Rolex. But then again that would entail you using some logic.
Again your example of knock off is not exactly “industrial espionage”…

And psst Milwaukee technically a registered Chinese company even though it is majority own by a German family.
 

dogdog

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And psst I have had Milwaukee stuff since they were in the US. Well aware of what they are and where they are now.
lol and how do you know the knockoff are not ordered by an fly-by-night American company?

Again, industrial esponiage and selling knockoff are two different things. In your example of knockoff, it doesn’t need “industrial espionage” to accomplish the task.
 
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